What we now know about Magic... Sorta...

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4 years 10 months ago - 4 months 6 days ago #3803 by Malady
Malady created the topic: What we now know about Magic... Sorta...
What we now know about Magic :

Kristin Darken on Magic Weaves, Pre-Sundering Magic and a few other stuff [ Click to expand ]


...

What I now want to know is:

How does all that relate Ki, Leylines, and anything else Magic-related that I missed...

If the 'weaves' ever fully heal, would their 'appearance' match the Pre-Sundering version exactly?

If Magic can be Sundered further... Human magic is already divided up by Traditions, could the divisions be made even more stark?

...

Any info that I missed? My Archives have a Q&A thread that's literally called "Magic", that I should scrape for info to add to this post?
Last Edit: 4 months 6 days ago by Malady.

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4 years 10 months ago #3805 by FiddlerFox
FiddlerFox replied the topic: What we now know about Magic... Sorta...
It always seemed to strike me that leylines were simply flows of energy. Traditions or spheres seemed to be how that raw energy was used. I.e., electricity has a raw state. We then harness it into either AC or DC, which are further defined by voltage, frequency, amperage, etc. Different countries harness it to different specs, and not all devices work in all countries without converters, etc.

Ki almost seems like leylines of the body's energy... which may or may not be magic energy. Kinda. There's an exchange system between the two that is fuzzy ;)

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4 years 10 months ago #3808 by Kristin Darken
Kristin Darken replied the topic: What we now know about Magic... Sorta...
Ki is the body's life energy. It typical spirals outward from our core in numerous spectrum from specific nodal points in the body, along specific branches and channels to and from every point. Some cultures map this out very specifically as can be seen with studies into the Chakra (Hindu) or with acupuncture/pressure. Keeping these energies in balance provides a natural source of health and strength for the body/mind/spirit. As a matter of the nature of energy, some of that 'radiates' off every individual, becoming free form Essence.

Essence, like all power flows naturally between points of high density/potential to points of low density/potential. And in moving, it does so along paths that have the least resistance. This forms flows of energy like streams which are pulled into larger and larger ones. Of course, all life forms contribute to these energies... but so does everything else. And the further the ley lines are from the source of energy that produced them... the less that Essence is 'tainted' by its original source. For instance, Essence created by an old graveyard will have a very necromantic taint to it. The power of the sun over a desert generates a very different sort of Essence... as do human beings, animals, trees, and so forth. But as these energies flow faster and faster along the streams and rivers of the ley lines; they are stripped down to a more raw form of Essence. It is that form that the Sidhe have the capacity to tap that humans cannot, even where they are capable of dealing with the torrent/amount of Essence. Humans tend to attract the free floating Essence that is part of the background/ambient. As a result, we're used to working with 'tainted' power... and in fact, rely on it to add the appropriate flavor to spells.

As to the questions about the weave healing? You can't ever go back. Only forward. Even if it heals without scarring, it won't be the same as it once was.

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4 years 10 months ago - 4 years 9 months ago #3822 by Malady
Malady replied the topic: What we now know about Magic... Sorta...

Kristin Darken wrote: Ki is the body's life energy.... It typical spirals outward from our core in numerous spectrum from specific nodal points in the body, along specific branches and channels to and from every point. Some cultures map this out very specifically as can be seen with studies into the Chakra (Hindu) or with acupuncture/pressure. Keeping these energies in balance provides a natural source of health and strength for the body/mind/spirit. As a matter of the nature of energy, some of that 'radiates' off every individual, becoming free form Essence.


Wait... So how does Yin and Yang-ness of Ki play into that, if it's all bio-energy? (Yes, I'm simplifying, it's easier to type?)

Is one of them the outside, 'Earth' Essence, and the other's 'Inner' Essence or something like that? Like the Mage's understanding, but just in different terms?

Kristin Darken wrote: Essence, like all power flows naturally between points of high density/potential to points of low density/potential. And in moving, it does so along paths that have the least resistance. This forms flows of energy like streams which are pulled into larger and larger ones. Of course, all life forms contribute to these energies... but so does everything else. And the further the ley lines are from the source of energy that produced them... the less that Essence is 'tainted' by its original source. For instance, Essence created by an old graveyard will have a very necromantic taint to it. The power of the sun over a desert generates a very different sort of Essence... as do human beings, animals, trees, and so forth. But as these energies flow faster and faster along the streams and rivers of the ley lines; they are stripped down to a more raw form of Essence. It is that form that the Sidhe have the capacity to tap that humans cannot, even where they are capable of dealing with the torrent/amount of Essence. Humans tend to attract the free floating Essence that is part of the background/ambient. As a result, we're used to working with 'tainted' power... and in fact, rely on it to add the appropriate flavor to spells.


So, how does the Olympian and Chthonic Energies of Silent Nacht 5 relate to all that? I guess they're just different flavors of Essence?

What about the Erebos that Nacht was dipped into? ... Astral Location, perhaps?

What are Mystic Planes, like the Malkuth one of Seraphim's stories? Just another name for the Astral Planes?

Was there some story that was posted a while ago, about synonyms for the Astral Planes, or was that for the Dreamspace?

Kristin Darken wrote: As to the questions about the weave healing? You can't ever go back. Only forward. Even if it heals without scarring, it won't be the same as it once was.


*nods*

********

How does the Tao (and it's enhancement abilities?) relate to Magic in general?
Last Edit: 4 years 9 months ago by Malady.

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4 years 9 months ago #3889 by Kettlekorn
Kettlekorn replied the topic: What we now know about Magic... Sorta...

Kristin Darken wrote: As to the questions about the weave healing? You can't ever go back. Only forward. Even if it heals without scarring, it won't be the same as it once was.


I was going to let this pass, but then it was already too late .

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4 years 9 months ago #3903 by Kristin Darken
Kristin Darken replied the topic: What we now know about Magic... Sorta...

Malady wrote: Wait... So how does Yin and Yang-ness of Ki play into that, if it's all bio-energy? (Yes, I'm simplifying, it's easier to type?)

What do you mean 'just' bio-energy? :)

Also... how does Yin and Yang not play into that... when you talk about energy cycles, its always about the dynamics between the place from which it comes and the place to which it flows. Yin and Yang are the ultimate metaphor of that dynamic. Where heat flows out of a fire into the night air. Where the low pressure zone draws the heat and moisture to a place where the rain can fall. Where ions gather in one place until energy can be released from the sky in bolts of lightning. Where a Father protects and teaches a son to be strong until that day that the Son becomes the protector. Everything in life is found some stage of dynamic transfer, some balance, between a source and a destination. Using the Ki in martial arts is simply an extension of that understanding, of being aware of the point of balance and tilting it in the direction that yields the greatest advantage while avoiding creating a similar vulnerability in one's own motion and energy.

So, how does the Olympian and Chthonic Energies of Silent Nacht 5 relate to all that? I guess they're just different flavors of Essence?

Yes, primal forces/energies are generally equivalent to 'tainted' essence. Primal Fire, for instance can be used directly in the performance of magick where your goal is fire related. Often, part of a given ritual is simply an exchange process. Contact so and so on Ice Planet x and exchange 23 grams of Primal Fire for 25 grams of Raw Essence. Then use the Raw Essence to contact the Knight of Eternal Darkness and offer him 20 grams of Raw Essence in exchange for 30 grams of Primal Shadow. Feed the full 30 grams of Shadow into this "Smoke of Disillusionment" spell. Alternately, you can feed larger amounts of a less efficient garden variety Essence into the spell. But this way you make use of the Primal Fire you picked up with minimal effort during your mission to shut down a volcano last week... and build a reputation with your contacts. And can even come out of it ahead, if you work a good exchange rate. In fact, some wizards can build up their essence supplies purely by operating as neutral exchange dealers who stay out of the politics of those making exchanges in types of essence.

What about the Erebos that Nacht was dipped into? ... Astral Location, perhaps?

What are Mystic Planes, like the Malkuth one of Seraphim's stories? Just another name for the Astral Planes?

Was there some story that was posted a while ago, about synonyms for the Astral Planes, or was that for the Dreamspace?


A 'rough' guide to the planes that we've hinted at or revealed so far (and these will become more clear between Kayda and Esoteric and some of the classes in the Fall 2007 semester) goes something like this:

Our world -> Astral -> Lower Spirit Worlds -> Upper Spirit Worlds -> Middle Spirit Worlds -> Ethereal

These planes/realms basically lie along an axis at which one end is the purely physical, mundane world in which everything is exactly as the five physical senses show it to be. Perception or understanding has no impact at all on an objects nature. On the other end is a purely metaphorical place in which the five senses cannot tell anything true about the nature of something... only understanding its nature will enable you to perceive it properly.

Our world... is not on the end of the axis to 'fully physical' ... however, some places in our world approach that axis more than others. A mage or psi who encountered such a place would be discomfited, it would seem 'absent' of something important and they would be very uncomfortable staying in such a place. Given time, it may even be harmful to their nature. Other places in our world, however, are closer to illusion than they are to the physical and are experienced with wonder even by those who aren't generally sensitive to magic or psi.

The astral is the most common gateway into the realms of the mind and spirit. It typically duplicates our world, copying it in the ways most commonly perceived. That does mean that new change may lag behind somewhat. The expectation of people is that the door is still there, even though it has been completely removed from the building. But more traumatic events are likely to transfer immediately, the psychological impact being more abrupt in a world that is non-physical. Someone who is aware of the nature of the astral realm can often break the rules of our world. The astral, like our world, varies from place to place. Some areas are more grounded than others... and are not as malleable to the individual mind... while others flow easily. There are entities that make the astral their home, but they tend to avoid visitors (they are just as susceptible to control as their world is).

The Lower spirit realm is where most study of animism occurs. It is the home of the many spirits and it is a place of metaphor and the things have been. Every life form that is encountered there is likely to be more than what it seems. But only more in relation to its own nature. Exploring the Lower realm will teach you much about the nature of life and the living world and of yourself. Most shaman have a private/personal space somewhere in the Lower realm that reflects their own nature.The Lower world probably isn't going to reflect the existence of something unless it has been that way for many months. Anything with less permanence, isn't likely to make an impression. It's not hard to slip from the physical world to the Lower realms in some places... especially when one's control over the physical senses is lacking (due to thirst... or peyote, among other things).

The Upper spirit realms are where the honored ancestors go to reside after death. It is where one might find a spirit guide, a teacher in the ways of the spirit worlds. Where, in the Lower realms the mouse that scampers over your boot is likely to be a mouse spirit and not 'just' a mouse... in the Upper realm, it could be Mouse - the archetypal Totem representing all the things that make something 'Mouse'. Like the Lower realms, there is also a disconnect to the physical world in the sense that it is wilder, less touched by the actions of mankind... and things have to be much more permanent to be reflected there... decades if not longer. The key difference being, that the more 'emotional' or conceptual power something bears, the more likely it will be a part of that realm. It is not easy to reach the Upper realms but a trained shaman can achieve it.

The Middle realms are the most abstract and wild of the spirit realms and are rarely, if ever, reached by even the most practiced shaman. This is the home of the spirits of the abstract nature: the wind, the water, the trees and sky, etc. They are a primordial place, touched by little except the most important worship sites and ruins of the greatest enduring civilizations. What we've accomplished in North America since arriving back in 1500(ish) amounts to very little there. 500 years doesn't mean much to the Wind or the Mountains.

The Ethereal plane is where you will find the 'Mystic planes'... it is a place of ideals and concepts. The Akashic Library (the storehouse of the collected knowledge of humanity) can be found and studied there. It takes a powerful mind and Will to function there, let alone understand and make use of the place... and generally cannot be reached without powerful magick and/or Psychic training. Additionally it is extremely dangerous because, like the spirit realms, it is in habited with beings native to it... and they are often far too powerful for being not of the ethereal realm to control.

How does the Tao (and it's enhancement abilities?) relate to Magic in general?


In the same way that religion relates to faith. They aren't really directly connected, but in ways that are more misunderstood than practically useful. The Tao is a fundamental philosophical concept, at the heart of almost all the laws and mechanics of how the universe works. In a way, you could look at it as a sentient being that inhabits something like the Ethereal plane... or something further out along that axis. And Magick is something that operates on a completely separate axis. Not that it can't have an impact on things along the physical -> archetypal axis... but it doesn't have to. And trying to tie them together is a mistake.

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4 years 9 months ago - 4 years 9 months ago #3906 by Malady
Malady replied the topic: What we now know about Magic... Sorta...

Kristin Darken wrote:

Malady wrote: Wait... So how does Yin and Yang-ness of Ki play into that, if it's all bio-energy? (Yes, I'm simplifying, it's easier to type?)

What do you mean 'just' bio-energy? :)


I found 'body's life energy' too tedious to type, as I assumed I'd be using it a lot more than I did...

Kristin Darken wrote: Also... how does Yin and Yang not play into that... when you talk about energy cycles, its always about the dynamics between the place from which it comes and the place to which it flows. Yin and Yang are the ultimate metaphor of that dynamic. Where heat flows out of a fire into the night air. Where the low pressure zone draws the heat and moisture to a place where the rain can fall. Where ions gather in one place until energy can be released from the sky in bolts of lightning. Where a Father protects and teaches a son to be strong until that day that the Son becomes the protector. Everything in life is found some stage of dynamic transfer, some balance, between a source and a destination. Using the Ki in martial arts is simply an extension of that understanding, of being aware of the point of balance and tilting it in the direction that yields the greatest advantage while avoiding creating a similar vulnerability in one's own motion and energy.


Interesting... But, I'm sorry for not being clear...

I mean "What is Yin Ki and Yang Ki?"

Kristin Darken wrote: The Middle realms are the most abstract and wild of the spirit realms and are rarely, if ever, reached by even the most practiced shaman. This is the home of the spirits of the abstract nature: the wind, the water, the trees and sky, etc. They are a primordial place, touched by little except the most important worship sites and ruins of the greatest enduring civilizations. What we've accomplished in North America since arriving back in 1500(ish) amounts to very little there. 500 years doesn't mean much to the Wind or the Mountains.

The Ethereal plane is where you will find the 'Mystic planes'... it is a place of ideals and concepts. The Akashic Library (the storehouse of the collected knowledge of humanity) can be found and studied there. It takes a powerful mind and Will to function there, let alone understand and make use of the place... and generally cannot be reached without powerful magick and/or Psychic training. Additionally it is extremely dangerous because, like the spirit realms, it is in habited with beings native to it... and they are often far too powerful for being not of the ethereal realm to control.


Hmm... I want to ask how dangerous are these beings of the Higher Astral Planes, but I also think that such entities are so inhuman that the idea of "I want to destroy this person/humanity" isn't something that we should fear, because they just don't think like that... And I couldn't use those creatures as viable antagonists...

Unless, some guy or gal did something like make a serious and effective attempt at reducing every mountain on Earth to rubble, which would anger Mountain, perhaps? Or not?

So... Where do these Higher Rank Astral Beings rank on the Power Chart / Super Weight?
Last Edit: 4 years 9 months ago by Malady.

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4 years 9 months ago #3916 by Kristin Darken
Kristin Darken replied the topic: What we now know about Magic... Sorta...
In all things, whether martial art or more abstract philosophy, yang and yin are always the 'same'. Yang is the positive, masculine, the source, the presence, etc and Yin is the negative, feminine, receiver, dispersed. So all flows of energy in the body or out are 'both' technically. If you pick a point on an acupressure meridian, for example, the flow of energy from 'upstream' is the yang side, and the dispersion of energy down stream is yin. What makes a flow of energy yin or yang is which dominates... if I pressurize a tank full of water and then puncture it to release it... that is a yang dominated flow of energy. If I create a vacuum in a tank and puncture it to allow air to flow in and fill it, that is a yin dominate flow of energy. Generally, in the body, w e don't have yang or yin transfers that are that extreme. The heart pulls blood back along the veins just as it pushes blood out along the arteries to fuel our organs. But that IS a two part flow of energy, a yin dominated flow of blood pulled into the heart and a yang dominated one pushing the blood out again. Our ki flows operate the same... the strong presence of ki in our chakras drives energy outward in spirals along our core. But the chakras aren't static pools... they're a spinning force that 'pushes' along one side and 'pulls' along the other. And while we are drawing energy up from the grounded earth, we are also drawing energy downward from the divine truth.

Different organs and energy centers are generally classed to one side or the other, where there is a weakness in yin, it is generally treated through pushing (yang). Where there is a problem with yang, it is treated by creating a 'vacuum' that will pull more effectively.

Does that help?

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4 years 9 months ago #3917 by Kristin Darken
Kristin Darken replied the topic: What we now know about Magic... Sorta...

Malady wrote: So... Where do these Higher Rank Astral Beings rank on the Power Chart / Super Weight?

Anywhere from "aw, its a cute little mouse... I wonder what it represents" to "oh fuck, that thing just snacked on that servant of Cthulu... and it was only just waking up"

But they ARE the sentient embodiment of abstract concepts... like outer gods, you're more likely to die because they accidentally stepped on you while pulling out their book card to sign something out of the library than because you upset them.

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4 years 9 months ago #3919 by Dreamer
Dreamer replied the topic: What we now know about Magic... Sorta...
Kristin, I believe Malady wishes to know what is considered Yin and Yang energy in context of Ki magic, like Chaka uses. If your previous post didn't explain it well enough, that is, which it did for me.

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