Question A few Sidhe related questions!

So quick note to anyone who speaks gaelic - Is mé na iníon an Morrigan agus ó Tir na Nóg.

Hello, I'm Sin, aka Quinn, and I'm a mythology geek who is trying to piece together some background information for a powerful Sidhe spirit / Sidhe I hope to merge with a character I'm developing. I've been reading the threads on the Fivefold Court and the wiki entries and so far I've pieced together a few ideas. First, that the Sidhe were generally with the Court of the West pre-Sundering and that a few survived and bounced around the cosmos.

Now, sides the fact I love the fair folk or mound dwellers, I'm trying to stick together a canon friendly take on the Tuatha de Danan (for those who don't speak Irish that's Too-ahah de Danahn).

Figures in this mini mythos would include the main character who has the soul of the Morrigan, a possible Cu Chulainn figure and maybe a few from Norse / Irish Mythology. The idea I have is if I go with Sidhe as their species they'd be exiles who eventually settled past doggerland (where the area around the baltic was) and spread out into say Gaul - Ireland. Eventually they decided to build a few cults around their personalities and decided to clash with a few other supernatural species, Old King Balor Burning-Eye might be a good bad guy, and I'm tempted to toss in a few other nasty faerie creatures (Dullahan, Leanan Sidhe etc). Issue is how do I incorporate these things without breaking canon.

1) So here is the question. Do the Tuatha De Danann have to be Sidhe or can they be something else? Usually, folklore makes a distinction between gods like Lugh / Dagda versus Finfarra.

2) If they are Sidhe can they be relatives of the Sundered King and his Nine Queens? Morrigan the name translates as "The Great Queen" and at times she is referred to as the Queen of Banshee.

These are just to start, sorry for all these random musings. As an author I research a topic to death before I put it down to words.

Go raibh ma agat!

Leanabh fàilte a 'bhan-dia. (My Gaelic is way out of practice, forgive any spelling errors)

Now, as I recall my history and mythology, the Tuatha de Danan may or may not be a race per se. They appear in form as a race at times, and at other times appear to be more of a collective, but no strict evidence that they are a unified race as we use the term in the modern era. After all, why would the term appear in both singular and plural forms if it was only one race? Thus, from a mythology perspective, I would say that they include all the realms of the fair folk, not just the Sidhe.

If my previous assumption is correct, I do not see where there would be any restriction on what particular sect of Sidhe they may be associated with either.

Lastly, in closing, I just want to remind everyone that fairies are not a matter of mythology, they are fact. My clan has tangible proof in the form of the Fairy Flag. I trust all students of Celtic Lore are familiar with the Fairy Flag kept in safety and honor at Dunvegan Castle.

(EDIT) That's not the clan tartan in my avatar, that's a black watch. My family line is from the MacLeod's of Lewis.

Since you mentioned Morrigan specificly. I'll forward you to a long running work in progress story series by Insane Hiker. Ongoing story. That link will take you to the current arc. But if you look around you will come across earlier stories that have Morrigan in a more pivotal role. Perhaps you two can get in touch and compare notes.

Failte romhat mo chara!

That's an entirely good point! Nuada, Dagda and most of the major gods are described as human-like at least. The Morrigan and her sisters could shapeshift to some degree. She could appear as a crone, or a beauitful woman etc etc. Usually I make a distinction between Fair Folk / Faeries (such as Dullahan, the Side, Seleigh / Unseleigh) and the gods themselves. Then again it gets kind of confusing especially if you consider those weird cities they "came" from in the Crhistianized back lore (I prefer the pagan take).

Oh cool btw, my family is from Munster! Descendants of Ceallach who slew the father of Brian Borou around 1000 or so AD.

With howthe lack of essence makes it entirely 'untenable" for Sidhe to be alive, it makes me think that this particular "Clann" likely were inhabited human hosts or were influecning a local bunch of "apes" in spirit form. I could also state that perhaps their escapades were imprinted upon the humans as paladins and channelers. The early Nikki stories did mention their might be a few long lived Faerie-type mutants which makes me wonder if perhaps that perhaps some of these types are just long lived mutants.

I guess with the Sidhe thing I'd love to see Scald-Crow arguing with herself about "I will NOT BEND THE KNEE" to the Queen to Come.

@Yolandria: I messaged Insane Hiker, and I'll try to do a few searches for the Morrigan. I'd hope to collaborate and find information as I develop the character. Honestly, if I eventually have the character attend Whately proper be good to have an idea of what her "goddess" self did before she became Scald-Crow.

--

Further questions:

1) In one thread it is stated that humans can mutate into Fae. This plus what seems to have occured to Absinthe and Nikk makes me wonder if perhaps a character could mutant first into a neo-Sidhe (just to diferentiate between the now dead previous Sidhe species) as a result of melding with a "Faerie God" aka a Class 2 entity.

2) If that is possible how many memories would this include? If the Morrigan was a previous Sidhe did she die or escape the Sundering (which is why I have emailed Insane Hiker for some deets). If that is so it opens a lot of possibilities.

I will be constructing a characater OC discussion thread soonish, I'd just like to gather as much data for my brain to perculate the right amount of ideas.

You don't necessarily have to go Whateley fae either. There's a lot of lore built up internally in the WU, but like Kristin pointed out, if you look at Avatar versus Paladin, you could avoid the issue, at least to a degree. Your character, like Kayda, could be channeling an entity that knew the WU Sidhe first hand, but without the baggage of Whateley's Sidhe court because Walkie Talkie is distinctly separate as much as she is involved in the Sundering. Or...you could embrace it, like Kodiak or Molly's bestie Rythax, and have your Morrigan Paladin be very much aware of the past politics. The latter would require a lot more research on your part of the scattered mentions in the stories, but could be a great deal more rewarding. Just keep in mind that the authors have a lot of little secrets squirreled away that they aren't telling us, so you may have to deliberately make things ambiguous or vague if you go that route.

There are a number of "not-Sidhe" or Sidhe-in-denial at Whateley. Spider and Lodestone are the first two that jump to mind.

Humans are mutating into Sidhe, or Trow, or whatever, but they're also just experiencing GSD that makes them look like Sidhe without the political, racial, and interbreeding issues.

I am at best a novice when it comes to the Whateley lore side of things. So I can't help much there. But I do have some experience with various aspects of Celtic lore and a few books on the matter, so I can provide some ideas or information from that aspect.

As I understand the Whateley side of things, Sidhe and humans cannot breed without special considerations being taken into account. As I recall my Celtic lore that may or may not apply (or perhaps it only applies to certain types of the fair folk, which would seem logical and would make combining Whateley knowledge and real world knowledge much easier).

Now, on the mutation side of things, my understanding is that it appears to be a matter of Sidhe DNA becoming "activated" that results in the mutant becoming a Sidhe instead of remaining a human (albeit a mutant human). But, if we assume there are multiple types of fairy (which appears to be the case in both our and the Whateley worlds) it seems to me there is nothing precluding a person manifesting as something of a "half breed" or as some less well known type of fairy folk.

For the Morrigu (Morrigan, take your pick) I think you have options there. As an aspect of the goddess, it could be something like an avatar. Then, Morrigu herself has multiple aspects. These could be tied in as "shards" of the entity that resulted from the sundering. Essentially claiming that the sundering resulted in the whole of the Morrigan being broken into the various constituent parts (aspects) such as her aspects of: Crone, Great Mother, Moon Goddess, White Goddess, Queen of the Faeries, goddess of War, goddess of Fate, goddess of death, goddess of running waters, patron of witches/magic, goddess of wisdom, goddess of revenge, etc. (I am sure there are more, but my memory is not as good as it used to be)

As for what memories such an event would include, that would be hard to say. My gut answer would be "whatever memories are needed for the story". I would not make them too copious in quantity, and I would have them rationed out on an as needed basis. I don't seem to recall any of the figures from Celtic lore freely dispensing knowledge without good reason.

Thank you for such wonderful replies!

Before I reply, I want to say that the old muse decided to kick the character in a less specific direction., The more I play with the more I'm thinking it would be interesting to have a sense of lost memories, and good old souls searching.

My idea has kind of mutated from the actual spirit being "the Morrigan" to rather being a former Sidhe who through a series of broken experiences was dubbed the "Morrigan" if that makese any sense. I remember that exemplars BITs can be easily influenced such as Tether taking on the form of Miss Perfect! After scanning a few things, and picking apart ideas here's what I" getting.

1) This character was related to one of the diseased Queens or was there when one of them died. They were a child at the time just old enough to be entering their teens. They were killed in the Sundering rendering their spirit I guess free on the astral plan of sorts.

2) Child spirit basically eked out a series of experiences engaging with a series of avatars over the years, but around say the early Iron Age its biggest manifestation at the time got it dubbed "The Morrigan". Basically she ran around with a spear, killed Cu Chulainn and had some esper abilities. Nothing really special, but in that moment a rival Druid (aka Shaman) shattered who she was so she effectively forgot a lot of it.

3) The shards are still out and about in the primary existence, and have started to strike "contracts" with mortals. The "Paladin" is the current one. Influenced by the Paladin's love of the goddess the "Morrigan" the individual takes on a semi-Sidhe like appearance and gains some basic powers of nascent sidhe. Anger / wrath ridden glamour, some basic exempler abilities, skills in spear combat, and perhaps some sonic abilities.

She kind of remembers stuff from her last few "selves", but only bits and pieces. If she did run into Ungabunga it be something like "um hi, who are you?".

*Shrugs* Sorry if this is out of no where I literally got the idea after scanning pages of forums all day and watching my laptop freeze up over a job app.

@Katssun: Yes, I agree, I do want to get a lot more info on the Morrigan and the Sidhe Lore. Honestly, I'd love to flesh out some memories in the far future of different parts of the court or at least give a point of view on it. At the same time, after thinking it over, I thought a less specific "god" makes more sense. Makes it easier and the childlike frustration + status would make it a good reason to regression the character's age.

@MM2ss: She'd likely represent the typical form of the Morrigan as the vengeful goddess and the bringer of war. It would likely ebb with her emotions. I always like to play faerie types as being semi-alien in how they express their emotions so it might be fun for her to shift to different interpretations with how she ages and how she gains experience.

The fickle and utterly mercurial nature of the fair folk does lend itself well to such a concept.

If I may, on the glamour, might I suggest instead of going straight wrath/anger, perhaps more of a sense of extreme unease and tension? Rather like the tension one feels just before a fight or some other critical event. That might give you a wider range of options with a smoother flow. It also allows for more degrees of emotion that can be quantified and expressed.

Wrath is an extreme in and of itself to most people as an abstract concept, anger is traditionally considered the loss of control. But tension is more fluid. You get a slight case of tension/unease when the teacher ask you to come up to the board and demonstrate some lesson in front of the class. You have an entirely different and much more extreme sense of tension when you hear the steel plates on a submarine being ripped open while you are inside it and sitting 100 feet below the surface (been there, done that, don't recommend it). That tension builds in proportion to the situation and is more easily grasped by those who may not have ever truly felt extreme anger or utter wrath, but the tension and unease can lead to those extremes.

To be clear, I am not saying wrath/anger is not the way to go. I am certainly not a writer myself (unless you count writing reports and research papers). I could well be wrong, but I would be concerned about painting myself into a corner if I focused on just a narrow aspect of emotion when dealing with the aura. While at the same time, combat and war include many other emotions. Anxiety and raw emotion in all its' forms are part and parcel to war, so I think you might want to consider that as a possible alternative if your wrath/anger idea doesn't work as well as you hope (and I hope as well, I do like reading and a good story is something that touches very deeply).

No that's a good idea. In fact it might be interest to have her glamour essentially be a high form of project empathy. When she's angry, she projects anger, when she's happy it could be construed as a drunken feeling. The normal form would thus be tension and unease (omg Promethean disquiet from NWOD) since shes usually at that state. I plan on her battling mental illness as an issue (gender dysphoria being part of who she is).

I may have to just stop and wait for the story...you have me hooked already.

Wiki has a decent list of mental illnesses/mental health issues that is fairly easy to read. If you want to go full board certified the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders has over 450 forms identified, described and symptomized to such an extent that you will feel that you have a few yourself unless you have a medical degree...

Funny you mention the DSMV.

I actually suffer from mental illness IRL - Anxiety Disorder, Social Anxiety, Gender Dysphoria and Major Depression. So its part of who I am, I actually tend to treat the fae mind as being almost manic in how they switch between their emotions.

Scald-Crow aka Grainne (Project name) is likely gonna be a highly repressed late 20s adult who gets the "shard" and the two just feed into each other. I plan on having a Freyja like character later on and a few others, including a Faerie mentor of sorts. I actually might even revive a character I used in a few NWOD and DnD campaigns for the story. I have a habit of recycling characters.

One of my supernatural novels has a half-native who is the grand-daughter of Raven, a descendant of the Morrigan and a child of Odin. Its a weird mix...I may dip in to Salish myth in the story since i grew up wit it, seems a lot of the local native american influences tend to be Plains and Eastern Woodlands. Be fun to see a wendigo and maybe soe of the freakier monsters from Haida legend.

I have one book on native American mythology and tales, mostly for the South-Eastern tribes/bands. If you need anything in that area I''ll be glad to do some reading and forward what I find. I can't help much on the Norse stuff (not my area of study really, but I do recall a bit of a "scam" from history where some craftsmen used the the same molds to cast both crosses and Thor's hammer's) and I got nothing for the North-West groups.

If you did write a story? you can post here or maybe at BC for practice?
there is a huge audience of readers over there!

Salish and Haida and South-Eastern US and Gaelic?

What an interesting combination!

Raven and The Morrigan on one side, but I'll admit I know very little about South-East tribes. I'm very much in the Algonquin-Iroquoian sphere of influence.

Something I noticed over the years is that if you just follow the generalities instead of all the tiny details is that many mythologies and even religions share a great deal in terms of concepts.

Also, thanks to the English being a bit...non-understanding...many Scots and Irish ended up in the Americas over "minor" political disputes. Once there many also had relations (both formal and otherwise) with the various native peoples. Just look at Osceola. Technically he was a Creek (though everyone thinks of him as a Seminole). But his genealogy is reasonably well documented, he was also Scots-Irish and Welsh. While there is no definitive proof (but lots of circumstantial evidence), he may also have been in part, African-American as well.

Add in the forced relocation of native Americans to the west and you could easily end up with all those plus the Pacific Northwest mixed into one family.

OMG, this reminds me of when I use to do character approvals for GW2 when I ran a massive RP clan. Vague is your friend!

Yes so much yes to this. I agree!

Actually, the reason I ended up toying with the idea of a faerie child's spirit and her memories being split up is that it creates a ton of wiggle room. Who is she? Well she's the Morrigan right? IS she really? Or is she just a spirit who attached to an old channeler and gained some influences cuz that Shaman suddenly was powerful? This adds in a lot of fun because she could basically be getting her modern appearance and ideas from what she's learned and has been believed toward her. A bit of an American God take, but it also means that if someone wants to pop in with "THE MORRIGAN" in Canon it doesn't disrupt who the spirit is

If she's a kid and is basically unsure of what she was before sundering shes effectively open to being taught. Means if she gets used in another fic, people can have her interacting with more experience courtly types and coming to learn about it. Her ties to the mutant (be it paladin or avatar, I'm leaning towards Avatar) is that both are connected in their emotions. I'm still sticking together the ideas for her "contract", but I'd imagine it's gonna be something pretty asanine when I finish it.

I hope this doesn't disregard earlier comments

Also a quick note about PNW peoples. The Haida were a raiders and traders. The Salish had some largely well established connections, nobility etc. My favorite trickster is actually Raven since you now, he gave us the sun :3

Heh. Seriously, Hearth and Home? LOL. I never invoke her, I simply respect that she exists and I haven't incurred her wrath, yet.

I've posted her deets and story idea here as I'm still sketching out her history.

I think vagueness and mystery are often better than knowing details. I look at X-Men. Personally, I liked the character of Rogue better from BEFORE we knew her actual name. mystery can be your friend.

My character Eire, is purposefully vague. She has a passing resemblance to Fey, but will I ever go into detail as to why? Probably not.

Feel free to be creative with the glamour. ,

Fey draws in protectors, Absinthe incapacitates with hallucinogens, Nulltrooper's character Metro has the unease glamour, and mine kinda makes her lovable and adorable and cute to everyone, so that they care for her and want her happy.

Rose Bunny wrote: Feel free to be creative with the glamour. ,

Fey draws in protectors, Absinthe incapacitates with hallucinogens, Nulltrooper's character Metro has the unease glamour, and mine kinda makes her lovable and adorable and cute to everyone, so that they care for her and want her happy.

Metro does have that "battlefield aftermath and one last muster at the graveyard" thing going. In his case, not all hulder or fae or other magics stem from - or owe anything to - the Sidhe. Depending on how close the OC is, and to which aspects of the Morrigan, they may get along well with him ... when they visit him in the hospital after their pet dog tries to rip his throat out.


With regard to Old Powers, Circe's warning to Phase about theurgy fully applies: the greatest danger is that you may get their attention. Their ideas for how to best help you (or harm you) may not bear rhyme nor reason to your ideas of the same. Their opinion on how close or distant, important or trivial, your relationship to them ... is their decision, not yours, and not up for a vote.

JG wrote: I still Laugh maniacally and walk away when someone tries to tell me that you Invoke the Morrigan for protection of Hearth and Home. My usual response to THAT is: "I'm out!"

Really? If your home is a FOB or warship or along the Borders in hostile times, and you're ready to do your own part toward your defense, she'd be an excellent protector.

For a middle-class suburbanite, I might recommend rethinking their strategy.



OK. I'd probably sit back and wait for entertaining fireworks, but the thought still counts.

Circumstances matter.

I don't have any empirical evidence, but I would say that most folks don't consider themselves all that superstitious. Put them on a submarine and that changes...fast.

I know many people that made it a point to "pay Poseidon's toll" by throwing coins into the water before boarding. Of 120 enlisted men on my boat, over 100 had tattoo's...the most popular items were crosses, pigs, chickens.rosters and monkeys. We almost had a mutiny when the supply officer ordered bananas before we went underway, no one would load them on board... Strangely, we never left port on a Friday.

Does that mean anything? Maybe, maybe not. The throwing of coins goes back to ancient Greece and was an offering for a safe voyage. Religious tattoos have been common in Naval service for ages. The chickens and pigs? They are religious also, but the theory is that in the event of a shipwreck God would see critters that could not swim and would have mercy on them, depositing them safely on land. Bananas are considered unlucky (I like them myself, but I still refuse to take one on a ship or boat to this day, just to be safe). Then there is Friday... That is a day of ill omens according to legend.

The absolute most disturbing thing I saw that related to Sailor's Superstitions? I saw a Sailor cussed out by a full bird captain for whistling. I am also going to say that "whistling up a storm" is something to be avoided and that on that day we were pulling into Groton, Connecticut. No joke, within 30 minutes of the public butt chewing we went from calm seas to sea state 5...over the next hour we had to abort our docking because we ended up in sea state 7. On a submarine with a round-cross-sectioned hull 20+ foot waves are a huge problem,

But like I said, circumstances matter. If someone wanted to invoke every god of war known to man while in a fire fight, I would be all for that. Invoking them before going to the qualification range in Norfolk? Not such a good idea nor appropriate.

{Edit] I did not explain the monkey tattoos. That was a thing among all the machinists and torpedoemen. We are commonly known as "grease monkeys", so many of the Nuke, Auxiliary and Torpedoemen types got monkey tattoos. I refrained from that, I just have a Celtic Cross with two mottoes on it. The first is "Deo Vindice" (God Our Defender/God Shall Vindicate, both interpretations are correct, it depends on context), the second is "Luceo Non Uro" (I Shine, Not Burn).

After doing some more research I am personally really liking Kristin's idea of a alternate dimensional earth with a band of sidhe or a group of spirits based around the Tuatha De Danann. Be interesting to see a weird invasion of dark powers such as Crom Cruach, and a few other nasties from it. Might be a fun way to be vague and also add on rather than disrupting other peoples current work.

null0trooper wrote: With regard to Old Powers, Circe's warning to Phase about theurgy fully applies: the greatest danger is that you may get their attention. Their ideas for how to best help you (or harm you) may not bear rhyme nor reason to your ideas of the same. Their opinion on how close or distant, important or trivial, your relationship to them ... is their decision, not yours, and not up for a vote.

This!

Definitely This!.

Whatever their origins were, even if they were human once, they are no longer human, and no longer think as humans do.

Tools shape the way you think. Physical tools in a lesser way, mental/conceptual tools in a much greater way.

Add in the perspective that comes from perceiving the universe in a multi-dimensional way over lengths of time that are more related to geology rather than travelling on a daily commute, and you will start to get an inkling of how "UN-human" they are.

And don't forget that their idea of an appropriate learning experience, might be a few lifetimes worth of living through the situation that you asked them about.

Pay the appropriate respects at the appropriate times, but to quote Pratchett, "Don't stand on the mountaintop in a thunderstorm wearing copper armour, whilst shouting 'All Gods are Bastards!' "

"May the Gods always stand between you and harm in all the empty places you must walk"
-Captain Sheridan

One of the best aspects of some stories is how truly alien things can be. One of my favorite interpretations of Sidhe is to always treat them as emotionally longer lived (duh) and more experiential than mortals. The Unfathomable is something mortal minds is not meant to delve into (usually why magic to me should be dangerous and come with a massive price).

What if I created a devisor based on the stories of say of the four treasures? Dagda's cauldron, the ever-sharp sword of Lugh and much more? Old fashioned magic weapons with weird properties might be fun in a story? But perhaps they come with some weird price or geas puth upon them. God, I love geas! Wield the spear of Cu Chulainn you cannot defy an offer of food, and to eat the meat of a hound is to lose all power.

Heh

I've never been a big fan of imposed geasa or flaws "just because". If there's a reason for one tied to the owner's nature: maybe. But in the source materials, it's usually either a forshadowing, or reiterating a point that the original audience would have caught.

For good example, a living creature cannot be put into Cauldron of Rebirth without dire results. On the one hand, duh. Magic is not sentient, so what are the enchantments expected to DO when faced with the task of reanimating the living? On the other, it could be reinforcing a prohibition on putting live creatures whole into the family stew pot (unless maybe you want food poisoning?)

For a bad example, from a Champions campaign, "does not work in the back third of a movie theater". How often do supers fight in the back of a movie theater? **

Good example: Mjölnir. So what if Thor's "hammer" was a little short? He still got the job done, right? That's part of the point: whether by accident or perversity, even the gods with all their powers don't get perfect toys and still have to accept the deliverables contracted as long as they are good enough to meet the terms.


** Later in the game, the more reasonable limitation "only works at night" on a rather broken character resullted in a ruling that the villains weren't completely stupid and that there would never be a super-powered crime committed between sundown and sunrise.

Yes, the best geas are generally the best kind of foreshadowing. Some were basically just weaknesses to mark "one's downfall" which is actually a pretty common aspect of warrior stories. I'd agree on the Cauldron and what a living thing would do if tossed in! After reading up on characters like Knick-Knack and Mega-Death, I'm getting a few ideas. Another thing I'm considering is the variety of entities I want to play with.

One, I want to have tricksters in my story one of my favorite kind of gods is a trickster plus since I'm from the PNW you bet Raven is in play. Second, is if I assume the "Arcadians" are some sort of menagerie of entities how do they work? Well, I'm defiintely making them queasy around stuff like cold iron and holy water. Running water might also be something else that messes with them (honestly I may just plunder the weaknesses of changelings from Changeling: The Lost).