Question I have an offer for you..

Can devils and demons still make bargains if they are in say an avatar?

An interesting thought. I am a bit old fashioned, as in I played pen and paper RPG's back in the day and still would if I could find a group to game with. Your question reminds me of the game "Demon, the Fallen". In some ways, it even parallels the concept of an avatar from the Whateley Universe.

The basic concept is that the demon is a spiritual being that can be housed in a human body. In DtF that happens along with forcing out the soul or spirit of the human, so it is not an exact parallel, but it is still a foreign spirit in a person. Now, once the demon is in a person, they are free to make bargains with other mortal beings. But there are limits to what the demon can do, based on two factors: the strength of the person's belief in the supernatural (faith in the game) and the actual abilities of the demon. These deals are obviously for part of the soul of the human. DtF uses a point system for rating things, so if a human had say three points of faith, the demon could try to forcibly take their spiritual power for its' own use or enter a deal. If the demon and human enter a deal, the demon might grant some degree of power, or some other favor in exchange for a portion the the persons spiritual power. So maybe a 1 point grant and 1 point for the demon, or a 2 point grant and one for the demon, in the greatest extreme a three point grant for the rights to the entire soul of the person (to be claimed at a latter time, which may or may not be part of the deal). The key was that the deal had to be entered into on a voluntary basis (though the book is clear that coercion or duress are allowed as well, the key was the person had to say yes themselves without being mind controlled or possessed etc.).

Using that perspective, if the demon or devil housed in an avatar was strong enough to be able to grant demonic boons to a person in its' natural state, it should be able to do so as an avatar. Or that would be my line of reasoning.

Looking through the wiki, it seems that demons from DtF largely follow the guidelines on Class 2 entities. They must cross into our realm from somewhere else (hell). Once here they must find a source of magical energy to remain here and functional (faith, souls harvested or bargained for). Then, they can do stuff with that power while acting through the body of their host. To top it all off, the demons in DtF absolutely have the "grown old enough to (apparently) display advanced thoughts and goals, along with much greater power than a new-born entity" bit down to a T.

That is all said from the point of view of a layperson however, not as an author and certainly not a cannon author (I like reading more than writing, and frankly I lack the imagination to write a good story). So perhaps someone with more experience on that side of things will chime in.

I would say heck ya!

but with this twist,

the deal has to warn the person or they know that they are making a bargain with a devil/demon and not the human that is being worn like a cheap suit?

take Kayda, her spirits live in another world and she is only taken over at times of need or want.

But Sara on the other hand IS the demon you are dealing with!

but in anycase = muhahhahahaah!

I would be interested in just how being an avatar would impact the possession of the human by the demon. In most stories of possession the demon has nearly full control of the body most of the time if it is strong enough. Or we can go with some biblical references and see that sometimes the demon just makes things unpleasant for the host but has little direct control. Which would suggest the power of the demon over the body has something to do with just how powerful the demon is personally to me. But an avatar has a hollow... A place specifically for a spirit to reside. That might make the entire scenario go in a different direction.

My theory on that is as follows. If the hollow is large enough for the demon, it might act as a "regular" avatar with a spirit. Meaning the person has control. The person could act as an arbiter between the client and the demon to direct the course of the bargain being made (Within the limits of magical laws on such things, whatever they may be. Nothing is free after all, so I doubt the avatar could force the demon to just give away stuff). On the other hand, if it is a weak avatar (small hollow) and a stronger demon (spirit too large for the hollow) it could result in the avatar manifesting signs of possession or even demonic traits (speaking in demonic tongues, horns, tail, etc). As I understand it, in some cases where the spirit is strong enough and the avatar too weak the spirit can essentially take over turning the avatar into a passenger in their own body.

Those thoughts resulted in me thinking about exorcism as well. In "classic" possession cases the rite of exorcism can drive the demon from the body, if the exorcist is strong enough in the faith. But if the demon isn't possessing the body, but is instead living in the hollow of an avatar, would exorcism even work? Or is there perhaps some other ritual for dealing with such situations? Then, can the avatar him/herself eject the demon from their hollow? (Tansy could capture and eject spirits, but it seems she is a special type of avatar, can other avatars do something similar...)? Lastly, thinking of the Tansy example, Jinn seized control of the body when Tansy was sleeping or incapacitated...could a demon in a hollow do the same?...

That all being said. Back to the bargains and deals. Everything I have ever read (some religious, some fantasy) indicates that a deal with the devil (and by extension, lesser demons, IMO) has to be for something of value, not a frivolous grant. So no, "I'd sell my soul for a beer" - "Done, come with me to hell". It had to be something of substantial material value, personal value or spiritual value. Furthermore, it always had to be a clear deal ("You get X, I get your soul" [or some portion of it, depending on the source]). So an extra 10 years of life for your soul? Possible (watch out for loopholes, demons are good at those). You soul for superhuman powers? That is a classic. You soul for incredible wealth? Could happen. (Though maybe you should specify cash in hand/specie, or you might just find you have unlimited credit at some obscure bank). Your soul for one more drink? Nope.

Now, none of what I ever read said you had to know you were dealing with a demon or the devil himself... But who else is out there buying souls for favors? Then again, in most stories of deals with the devil/demons, the person has summoned them or gone out looking for them as well, so they should know what they are dealing with based on that. But with an avatar, the person could be a moderating influence on the demon or simply make that part clear as a third party (assuming they care enough about the souls of others).

MM2ss wrote: I would be interested in just how being an avatar would impact the possession of the human

It should be a good deal for a demon, as it otherwise needs to expend more energy than it may be worth to stick around on our local planes. That assumes it wants to be here. Given the perversity of the Universe, I figure that many end up driving their ride to suicide just to get home ahead of the next set of murder hobos. A devil might be more likely to stick around, and remodel. Maybe go on vaykay: technically, Hospitality to the host applies. "Sorry bros, but I have to keep the ball-and-chain company. You'll just have to invade Hoboken without me. Darn."

But if the demon isn't possessing the body, but is instead living in the hollow of an avatar, would exorcism even work? Or is there perhaps some other ritual for dealing with such situations?

It depends. Ejecting any entity that is compatible with its hallow should be easier than one that isn't, depending also on how willing the host is. Catholics would likely call for a qualified priest. Others will go to faith healers, medicine people or other shaman, teachers, wise folk, etc.

Your soul for one more drink? Nope.

Addicts' souls are likely to have been optioned or pawned already. You can get them cheap on the aftermarket for pennies on the original debt.

Now, none of what I ever read said you had to know you were dealing with a demon or the devil himself... But who else is out there buying souls for favors?

Other class 2 entities. The ones with good PR get called gods or angels. I like Bek's observation that one of the few differences between a god and a monster is that you can usually negotiate with the former.

I may have taken a few too many courses on religion over the years. Or maybe I am just cynical and a hair jaded. I just don't really differentiate between devils and demons unless I am playing some D&D.

Coming from my background, my earliest information on demons and the devil (only one back then, you know how it goes), the idea was that they are stuck somewhere that is, shall we say, at least mildly unpleasant. Though, if one is in management, hell might not be too bad (better to rule in hell than to serve in heaven, etc.). To me, it seems that a hellish entity in middle management or higher might very well want to go home. After all, if they don't want to serve in heaven, they certainly would not want to serve on earth. However, a lower tier minion of hell might find serving on earth less onerous than serving in hell.

Then there is the power source of such entities. I think it safe to say that demons and devils (using the D&D division between the two) need faith/souls. Without that extra power, as you pointed out, they need to use their own to remain here. As I understand the concept, both would be rather greedy in terms of wanting to guard or increase their power, so a host is a good deal for either in that sense as you point out. The additional benefit is that by remaining here and in a host they have greater access to other souls. Though I wonder how being encased in a human (even a mutant human) might limit their more direct displays of power. At the same time, having a mutant host with superpowers might augment what the demon or devil could do, perhaps freeing them from some restrictions the cosmos might place on such entities freedom and ability to interact with the world.

It depends... I always hated that answer. Nothing personal, I just like to be able to box things up and shelve them neatly. Though my question is more about how being in a hollow instead of directly possessing the human would impact such an endeavor. If the two beings are both "equal partners" so to speak, I would think it would be far harder to exorcise the demon/devil, and since the critter is not actually possessing the human, I wonder if exorcism would work, even if the host wanted to get rid of the entity. However, I also realize we are working with an alternate reality, and so I suspect there would be some sort of alternative to the traditional exorcism for such cases. Which leads me to the history of exorcism. Back in the day, the Catholic Church had an order of exorcists. A minor order, but it was there. They were not necessarily priest and such either, but those studying to become priest and those that showed certain abilities to be able to perform such rites. As I recall, the order of exorcists in the Catholic Church is inactive at present. The duty falling on priest and such acting on instructions from a Bishop or higher. In the Whateley world would it be safe to assume that such an order still functions either openly or at least with the blessing of the church even if hidden from public view?

No argument on the value of already tarnished and tattered souls. Though in some systems (games and beliefs alike) there is a theory that whenever you offer your soul, someone or something buys it, even if there is no direct interaction. Your statement seems to support such a theory. Besides, just how much spiritual power could such a person have to even interest a demon or devil of anything but the lowest order?

Other class 2 entities. Fair enough. I don't have most of those in a box on my shelf yet. Like I said, my frame of reference is limited by a lack of imagination at times. That being said. It seems to me that most of the "good" entities don't so much make direct deals for souls. They seem to be putting out an ad instead. While the demon says, "The price is your soul", the 'good' entities seem to say, "don't be an arsehole and I will reward your soul". One seems to focus on the present and the other on the hereafter. That and the 'good' entities seems to be more forthcoming about the details of the deal they offer and in many cases offer an "escape clause" if the human decides later that they don't want to go down that path while the devils and demons seem intent on collecting their fee at all costs (they might follow the letter of the deal, but not the spirit so to speak). I guess the easiest way to view it is that the demon/devil can call in the debt as soon as they fulfill their end of the bargain, but the good entities seem to have a "collect only after death, this contract may be negated by either party prior to execution of the full terms" setup.

EDIT: One other thing about many of the 'good' entities... They do seem perfectly willing to set some strict lines that "thou shall not cross" and to use the 'bad' entities as something of a bully stick to encourage people to turn to them instead.

MM2ss wrote: I may have taken a few too many courses on religion over the years. Or maybe I am just cynical and a hair jaded. I just don't really differentiate between devils and demons unless I am playing some D&D.

In the Whateley Universe, there is a difference. While both are generally malevolent magical "entities", devils are native to this plane of existence and can be killed here, but not banished (because they are already "home"), demons are not native and can be banished from this plane but rarely can they truly be killed here.

MM2ss wrote: Then there is the power source of such entities. I think it safe to say that demons and devils (using the D&D division between the two) need faith/souls.

In the WU, faith may be one of the ways by which a human can "push" essence into a magical entity. That's one small takeaway from the "Angel of Hell's Kitchen" stories.

MM2ss wrote: At the same time, having a mutant host with superpowers might augment what the demon or devil could do, perhaps freeing them from some restrictions the cosmos might place on such entities freedom and ability to interact with the world.

Based on Carmilla's and Fey's stories, I'd say the Rules still must be followed as they are written into the very being of the person or entity. The catch, as with a summoned entity, is in knowing exactly which entity you intended to call, which one you did call, and which set of Rules they must follow.

MM2ss wrote: It depends... I always hated that answer.

You posed a multivariate question without setting constraints that can be met by a strictly limited set of states. Leaving open the strength of the person leading the ritual, the strength of the host, the strength of the hosted entity, all in turn with regard to the willingness of the host and/or the hosted to be removed, as well as to any additional conditions incurred by any of the three in previous incarnations amounts to asking to get "It depends" as an answer.

MM2ss wrote: Back in the day, the Catholic Church had an order of exorcists. A minor order, but it was there. They were not necessarily priest and such either, but those studying to become priest and those that showed certain abilities to be able to perform such rites. As I recall, the order of exorcists in the Catholic Church is inactive at present. The duty falling on priest and such acting on instructions from a Bishop or higher. In the Whateley world would it be safe to assume that such an order still functions either openly or at least with the blessing of the church even if hidden from public view?

Going by the stories featuring Merry, then Paige and Petra, some members of the church live in interesting times to this day.

MM2ss wrote: Besides, just how much spiritual power could such a person have to even interest a demon or devil of anything but the lowest order?

Ask John Constantine

MM2ss wrote: EDIT: One other thing about many of the 'good' entities... They do seem perfectly willing to set some strict lines that "thou shall not cross" and to use the 'bad' entities as something of a bully stick to encourage people to turn to them instead.

Or, their PR firms set those strict lines; the reality of their priorities and interests may vary.

Sara/The Kellith/Carmilla could be mistaken, or lying, but the WU's "Contract Of Solomon" does impose a requirement on certain entities or types of entities that they MUST exact a steep price for their services. Apparently it closes an easy path into local reality by such things. For an individual petitioner, it seems to ensure that 'evil' must be done. For the populations on either side, maybe not so much.

Fair enough, I read too much to remember things and when I get to typing I tend to fall back on what I remember. The distinction seems to be based on the "home" plane for the critter here. In other systems it was based on other things, like respect for law or not (if you did the D&D bit I think it was devils were lawfull evil and demons were chaotic evil, I'd have to recheck the books). Again, I just went off what I remembered, I did not recall a distinction made in the stories I have read, but I also have trouble recalling which ones I have and have not read. My brain is shot these days.

Regarding Faith:
That is what it seemed like to me as well. That faith is a form of power. Just like ley lines or electricity. Those with the knowledge and/or ability could use them, those without could not, unless they had the ability alone and did so in an unconscious manner.

Regarding "the Rules":
I would wonder just what the rules were though. We have the rules of magic obviously, and that seems to be a limit imposed by the cosmos to some degree. But would demons or devils perhaps have particular limitations based on their form as a non-corporal entity that gaining access to a body might alleviate? Similarly, would being in a body perhaps in some way limit other powers they have? I would think that, as you indicate, the rules are essentially part of the critter, but might there be "loopholes" the critter could exploit?

Regarding the multivariate question:
I know, but I still don't like it. Sort of like I had to follow orders from o-1's back in the day when they had no clue about the proper care and feeding of nuclear reactors... I didn't like it but I did what I had to do. Same here, I know there isn't a stock and straight forward answer, but it doesn't mean that I have to like that part of reality.


Regarding the church in the WU:
Indeed. Though how the organization is exactly set up and how other religions or groups handle the problem is not something that appears to be public knowledge. Which I would say is a good thing. After all, with mutants running around with superpowers, do we really want to let John Q. Public know that the Southern Baptist Coalition has established a demon hunting squad in Tampa or that the Roman Catholic Church has revived all the old military religious orders? Or whatever lesser methods may be in use. For that matter, just how much do the people in such organizations really know about such things, I would think it would be on a "need to know" basis for disclosure and the rest would know nothing, hear vague rumors, or perhaps only know that the "Order of Saint Geronimo" is associated with the church but not any real details.

Regarding Constintine:
No...besides, that incarnation of the Devil had more hubris than any fallen angel has a right to.

Regarding PR:
Or it is part of the natures of the "good" entities, it seems that many of the extra-planar critters are essentially personifications of concepts or embodiments of beliefs. If such was part of the very fabric of the being, it would make sense. I think that was mentioned in one of the Insanity stories. Then again, having a PR firm that says something besides "convert or die" doesn't hurt either.

Regarding the Contract of Solomon:
I looked, but didn't find much other that Carmilla saying that demons must exact a high price because of the contract... But I wonder, does that contract extend to all extra-planar critters? If so, wouldn't the suggestion of summoning a sex angel instead of a succubus still leave the summoner in the position of having to pay a high price for the favors they want? Also, perhaps my search-fu is weak, but anyone got some details on what the Contract of Solomon covers, as I can't seem to find it.

I wouldn't be surprised if the CC answer regarding magical rules and contracts ended up as "whatever needed to make a good story and keep the current story lines straight."

The chances are also good that while one hosted spirit can safely exercise all its power at-will (Aquerna's avatar problems don't seem too bad), another might only be able to do so once before frying its host, channel, or paladin, to a crispy ember (Okami comes to mind).

I have to agree with you on that in all respects.

While some really minor demon might be able to unleash its' full power if it were say the patron demon of poorly painted yard gnomes (seriously, look at those things, I think that particular demon is already doing that), Lucifer himself going full Armageddon mode would seem highly likely to at a minimum kill the host if not something far worse (not to mention what it would do to the rest of the world).

Hmm maybe this character idea is viable in this lesser form that doesn't cross the "ewww that is sick I'm reporting you" line

null0trooper wrote: I wouldn't be surprised if the CC answer regarding magical rules and contracts ended up as "whatever needed to make a good story and keep the current story lines straight."

Right. First thing to remember: this is not a role-playing manual. There are lots of areas that simply nobody bothered to define yet. So the CC might not have a definitive answer on that topic, simply because it hasn't come up in a canon story yet and they haven't discussed it.

Also: lots of the "rules" we have seen are in-universe "rules", created, by imperfect characters with incomplete information, as tentative steps to describe very complex phenomena from few data points. There are numerous exceptions to the accepted "rules", showing their limitations.

Essentially, unless one of the CC speaks ex-cathedra as WoG (and sometimes even then), you can always have a new character defy the established expectations. There are very few non-negotiable rules to my knowledge -- one of them being "no time travel" and another one being "keep power levels within established limits."

MM2ss wrote:
Regarding the Contract of Solomon:
I looked, but didn't find much other that Carmilla saying that demons must exact a high price because of the contract... But I wonder, does that contract extend to all extra-planar critters? If so, wouldn't the suggestion of summoning a sex angel instead of a succubus still leave the summoner in the position of having to pay a high price for the favors they want? Also, perhaps my search-fu is weak, but anyone got some details on what the Contract of Solomon covers, as I can't seem to find it.

I have to second this part

anyone have the WU info on this or the 'word' of the cabal?
As some of us write heavy in this and it would be nice to know what a being like Sara or gothmog's limits are---lol

You have to remember, we are writing stories,not a game manual.

The limits on any character (not just a demon) are basically
(1) Does it work in the story context
(2) Do any powers or abilities shown break the existing 'universe',
(3) Does anything leave the possibility of being either a gaping plothole or the high probability of causing a major issue later on.

(3) In particular is why we dont want to tie everything down to a rigid set of rules. That and the need to make a story work, which is our main aim.

Here is a bit about Faith, Religion, Holy Symbols, and the Seal of Solomon. Starring Phase and BKCRMWDJVG, with appearances by Christine and Rachel. Spoilers follow.



BKCRMWDJVG was a part of Demon that was summoned to earth, and broke free. It was possessing the body of a "dead" woman, much like Edgar was in MIB. BKCRMWDJVG spawned off several sets of three Devils during the fight, at least Phase assumed they were Devils. The whole battle gives quite a bit of info on Demons, and their powers and vulnerabilities.

The Kodiak Conspiracy has stuff about the Contract of Solomon.

Many thanks, I'll go and peruse the Kodiak Conspiracy. The various references do make me curious as to the terms and conditions. It might be something worth adding to the wiki as well.

Ok, went and read through "The Kodiak Conspiracy".

Sadly, it doesn't lay out the terms of the contract in one place, but it does include a number of references. It also mentions that contracts can be formed between spirits and hosts that apply in the same manner. Essentially, it appears the terms, once agreed to are inviolate.

Now, the terms I found seem to be:
1- A sworn blood oath is binding and cannot be interfered with. (Kodiak stating that Fey has a sworn oath to destroy the bastard and that interference is prohibited by the contract)
2- Beings predating the contract of Solomon appear to not be bound by it, or at least not directly, but they may choose to follow the terms. (Englund discussing Fey being involved says the terms do not apply to Atlanteans as they predate the contract)
3- Spirits cannot be ordered or forced to possess a host by another spirit. (Grizzly and Kodiak arguing over putting Grizzly in Loophole)
4- According to Sara/Carmilla favors granted must be accompanied by a high price. (Sara's Little Purple Book)

Much of this seems to be similar to the "Laws of Magic" given in the wiki.

Point 1 and the extra contract with a spirit that may be entered into appear to mimic the "Law of Pacting", which reads in part: "when a magical pact is made, it binds those who made it into honoring the agreement".

Point 2 appears to follow the concept of the "Law of Definition", in that while a being predating the Contract of Solomon may end up bound by the terms if they choose to subject themselves to the terms. Essentially, to me, it appears that the being is either under the contract by the contract predating the being, under the contract by voluntarily submitting to the terms, or not covered by the contract by predating it and by refusing to submit to the terms.

Point 3 seems to be a stand alone point. Though how it works is unclear, but Grizzly stated that such "hamhandedness" is in part one of the direct reasons for the Contract of Solomon. It seems that the spirit must choose to enter the avatar on their own.

Point 4 is tricky. But while it does not have an exact parallel in the laws of magic it does imitate one of the concepts. It seems to mirror the "Law of Reaction" in a sense. For every action, there is a reaction of equal or greater intensity... The action of granting a demonic favor is accompanied by a counter action that extracts a high price.

Could it be that the "Laws of Magic" are in some way a listing of some of the terms of the Contract of Solomon (those that are relevant to magic users, not necessarily spirits)? Or perhaps the terms of the Contract of Solomon and the Laws of Magic are perhaps akin to a "universal truth", to steal from Robiner, "What is absolutely true is always correct, everywhere, all the time, under any condition. An entity's ability to discern these things is irrelevant to that state of truth."

Perhaps those bound do not know the exact terms of the contract but when they attempt to do something contrary to the terms they are unable to do so and perhaps realize why a particular action in a particular circumstance is prohibited on when the case arises.

Anyone that finds more, please let me know.

Not canon, but I use something similar to "Spirits cannot be ordered or forced to possess a host by another spirit." in my stories: "No recursive or heterodyning summonings."

So Metro cannot summon one of the elemental/concept spirits that his tradition teaches about*, and then have that entity in turn do the same thing, ad nauseum. It could use a known ritual to call up another entity, but it cannot use a direct application of the same magic that brought/keeps it here on another of its own type.

Unless pacting or a pre-existing pact clauses is involved. Then, something ensues, but it might not be mistaken for hilarity.


* Whether this is calling the entity into existence out of star-stuff fitted to a magical template from his subconscious and bound by his will, or the magic is actually luring something that matches that template into local reality and a temporary pact, is a YMWV thing. Either way: Don't Screw Up.

About the only scenario that would allow chain summoning of demons that would make sense to me would be if you were dealing with some sort of cult...

For example, grand high psychopath Fred summons some demon prince and offers himself as a host. The Assistant screw loose Joe steps forward and offers himself as a host for the next demon and so on. Each would require their own pact or summoning ritual, but that is about the only way I could see a whole bunch of demons getting summoned in a short time frame. After all, you wouldn't want to summon a random demon...you'd want to summon one that you either think you can control or that you think you can make a deal with. After all, summoning the wrong other-worldly entity can be bad for you, just ask Bloodworm/Nylarhotep...

The way I could see it working would be if the first person made a pact that included the demon lord bringing his followers here to inhabit willing host. Then, after that was agreed, the members of the cult would have to make pacts agreeing to be hosts (though if that would be with the individual demons or with the demon lord might be a matter for greater discussion).

MM2ss wrote: About the only scenario that would allow chain summoning of demons that would make sense to me would be if you were dealing with some sort of cult...

That's not quite what I was getting at. Not everything that can be summoned is demonic or even needs a physical vessel in order to be useful. Keep in mind also that magic isn't restricted to involving only one law/principle/gentleman's agreement at a time.

I think I see what you are getting at. I was just more focused on the demon side of things is all. Using the common body of fantasy lore, elemental spirits can often summon one or more other, lesser elemental spirits. But, the common catch (not in all cases, but many, I would dare say the great majority) is that a summoned elemental is not able to do so. This, to me, seems to be similar to what you have described. A basic description of the phenomena would be that a free spirit can summon some other free spirit that is within its' power to command, but a summoned spirit could not do so in the same manner.

Using the D&D mechanics of the old days, demons and devils could also summon other demons/devils. The limitations were that the beings they summoned were at most equal to themselves but more commonly were lesser demons/devils. The previous catch was also in place, a summoned demon or devil could not then immediately use the power to summon other demons or devils. Thus, "chain summoning" was prevented. Thus, if a mortal summoned a high level demon, perhaps by true name, that would be the only demon to appear. Furthermore, that demon could not in turn simply summon up minions.

The loophole is in how summoning worked. If you were targeting a particular demon, by name (name, celestial name, true name, use name, whatever- it all depends on the system you reference), you had better odds of being successful and a better chance of having the demon contained in a manner where you could negotiate. However, once the ritual space is prepared, if you are summoning more demons of the same sort or family, the only change needed would be in the name, and in some systems the "true name" of the being was sort of like a direct link to that being. You could cut out most of the ritual by using the "true name" perhaps only keeping the parts up that confined the demon and protected yourself. Thus, the "cult" scenario I mentioned. Once the first demon was summoned by ritual and an agreement entered into, that demon could, potentially, give the "true names" of its' minions to the mortal for rapid summoning and hosting in the assembled volunteers.

On the matter of more than one law/principle/agreement being applicable at a time. Very true. I like to think of the "laws of magic" sort of like the faces of a cut gem. Each is but one side (aspect) of the whole and without the others each would be immeasurably reduced in luster (power over magic). For example, the Law of Definition seems closely allied to the Law of Pacting, once a being defines itself as under the terms of the Contract of Solomon it is then bound by the terms of that agreement (or such is my perception). Each law defines, limits and reinforces each other law. When all are together, that would be the "universal truth" that pertains to how magic functions (the limits, the costs, the repercussions, etc.).

MM2ss wrote: Ok, went and read through "The Kodiak Conspiracy".

Sadly, it doesn't lay out the terms of the contract in one place, but it does include a number of references. It also mentions that contracts can be formed between spirits and hosts that apply in the same manner. Essentially, it appears the terms, once agreed to are inviolate.

Now, the terms I found seem to be:
1- A sworn blood oath is binding and cannot be interfered with. (Kodiak stating that Fey has a sworn oath to destroy the bastard and that interference is prohibited by the contract)
2- Beings predating the contract of Solomon appear to not be bound by it, or at least not directly, but they may choose to follow the terms. (Englund discussing Fey being involved says the terms do not apply to Atlanteans as they predate the contract)
3- Spirits cannot be ordered or forced to possess a host by another spirit. (Grizzly and Kodiak arguing over putting Grizzly in Loophole)
4- According to Sara/Carmilla favors granted must be accompanied by a high price. (Sara's Little Purple Book)

Much of this seems to be similar to the "Laws of Magic" given in the wiki.

Point 1 and the extra contract with a spirit that may be entered into appear to mimic the "Law of Pacting", which reads in part: "when a magical pact is made, it binds those who made it into honoring the agreement".

Point 2 appears to follow the concept of the "Law of Definition", in that while a being predating the Contract of Solomon may end up bound by the terms if they choose to subject themselves to the terms. Essentially, to me, it appears that the being is either under the contract by the contract predating the being, under the contract by voluntarily submitting to the terms, or not covered by the contract by predating it and by refusing to submit to the terms.

Point 3 seems to be a stand alone point. Though how it works is unclear, but Grizzly stated that such "hamhandedness" is in part one of the direct reasons for the Contract of Solomon. It seems that the spirit must choose to enter the avatar on their own.

Point 4 is tricky. But while it does not have an exact parallel in the laws of magic it does imitate one of the concepts. It seems to mirror the "Law of Reaction" in a sense. For every action, there is a reaction of equal or greater intensity... The action of granting a demonic favor is accompanied by a counter action that extracts a high price.

Could it be that the "Laws of Magic" are in some way a listing of some of the terms of the Contract of Solomon (those that are relevant to magic users, not necessarily spirits)? Or perhaps the terms of the Contract of Solomon and the Laws of Magic are perhaps akin to a "universal truth", to steal from Robiner, "What is absolutely true is always correct, everywhere, all the time, under any condition. An entity's ability to discern these things is irrelevant to that state of truth."

Perhaps those bound do not know the exact terms of the contract but when they attempt to do something contrary to the terms they are unable to do so and perhaps realize why a particular action in a particular circumstance is prohibited on when the case arises.

Anyone that finds more, please let me know.

Remember the price paid by the Spirit when the Host dies.

As Mustang explained to Tansy, he was badly hurt when his previous host died in the 1960's, so was not able to manifest at all until 35-40 years had passed.

Just because a Spirit is summonable, does not mean that it would want to pay the price of inhabiting an avatar, just as some avatars would prefer that they did not have their spirits.

How would the New Olympians fit in with this?

They're known to be avatars where the Spirit is the main beneficiary of the relationship, and the human part of them is chained.

Kristin Darken wrote: Ya... you'll have to wait for that. I'm fairly sure you can figure out the situation with the New Olympians based on what's been published, but if not, I'm not going to reveal it here now. You should note though that, as I said above... the Avatar/Spirit bond is symbiosis. It's not symbiosis if the spirit has overridden the Host and controls the physical body.

Makes me wonder if Dionysus arrived much earlier, and realized he was wrong after spending a lifetime making moonshine right up until his death, but making sure he taught his grandson all he knew...then came back for round number two!

The right way this time.

No, the escape of the New Olympians was well documented: it happened on July 16, 1988. No way Dionysus could have taken over Grandpa since birth. But... Hmmm... let me check a few dates... OK:

1988-07-16: The New Olympians escape.
1992 or thereabouts: Bobby Earl is born
2000-05: Old Joe dies
2005-09: Bobby Earl manifests and acquires a spirit with a propensity for spirits.

Hmmm... it's possible that Bobby Earl was Dionysus intended target. Not all the New Olympians incarnated immediately; some of them were freshmen as of 2006, so they had to wait a few years before binding to their hosts, And we do know from the "Wild Times" excerpts that Artemis only revealed herself to Aaren/Erin in 2006.
Therefore, it's quite possible that Dionysus got bound to Bobby Earl and has just chosen not to reveal himself in any direct way -- Bobby Earl and the testers just assume that he caught his Grandpa's spirit, but it actually is Dionysus.

Now, if that's really what Elrod intended, we still have one missing Olympian... Poseidon.

Is Poseidon missing or just hiding? Some of the various characters capable of causing earthquakes could have been Poseidon, as could some of those capable of manipulating water. If I recall my ancient Greek lore correctly, Poseidon didn't exactly "play well with others" (including the other gods). As I remember it he was often described as quarrelsome and greedy (for power more than money, but still).

One is reminded of the lore about the Walls of Troy. Zeus stripped Poseidon and Apollo of their divine power and forced them to serve the king of Troy... Poseidon would be a good candidate for being one of the exiles or even staying completely off the radar until he thinks the time is right to overthrow Zeus.

We could also go to the authority on all things Greek, good old Homer. There we find that Poseidon considers himself equal to Zeus. Only the threat of the Furies caused him to stop interfering with the war. I would posit that he is checking to find the order of the escape (the whole regurgitation bit was how Zeus claimed to be the eldest when he was the last born), to see if the Furies are out and about and lastly to see just what the situation is. While his unpleasant disposition was well chronicled (it you lived in salt water you'd be a bit cranky too) there is also evidence that he was very capable of planning as well.

My vote, he is out and about, bidding his time and keeping who he is under wraps for now.

It's only a matter of time before E. E. Nalley gets bored with amnesia and decides that Lanie needs yet another big twist or reveal. Then we'll find out that Grizzly was actually Dionysus all along. More precisely, Dionysus was Grizzly taking a break from being a bear during one of the off-again phases in her relationship with Kodiak. Because obviously the thing to do after breaking up with your ancient Alaskan bear-god lover is to go have a drunken orgy in Greece.

Shortly after that reveal, Tansy will reflect upon Spirit-chan. At that point we'll learn that Spirit-chan never actually left Tansy, and is in fact Poseidon. Tansy originally knew he was Poseidon, but she'd done enough reading as a child to be genre savvy and freaked out, thinking this meant she was going to turn into a boy. To get her to calm down, Poseidon wiped her memories of him. That didn't remove the emotional damage, however, thus her seemingly disproportionate evil phase. Now that she's clearly coping with the very male Mustang, Poseidon feels it's safe to reveal himself again. Plus, he really wants to ride the horsey.

MM2ss wrote: We could also go to the authority on all things Greek, good old Homer.

Pfft, Homer was a hack!

Hesiod is the only true authority on all things Greek, and you know it!

Kettlekorn wrote: It's only a matter of time before E. E. Nalley gets bored with amnesia and decides that Lanie needs yet another big twist or reveal. Then we'll find out that Grizzly was actually Dionysus all along. More precisely, Dionysus was Grizzly taking a break from being a bear during one of the off-again phases in her relationship with Kodiak. Because obviously the thing to do after breaking up with your ancient Alaskan bear-god lover is to go have a drunken orgy in Greece.

Shortly after that reveal, Tansy will reflect upon Spirit-chan. At that point we'll learn that Spirit-chan never actually left Tansy, and is in fact Poseidon. Tansy originally knew he was Poseidon, but she'd done enough reading as a child to be genre savvy and freaked out, thinking this meant she was going to turn into a boy. To get her to calm down, Poseidon wiped her memories of him. That didn't remove the emotional damage, however, thus her seemingly disproportionate evil phase. Now that she's clearly coping with the very male Mustang, Poseidon feels it's safe to reveal himself again. Plus, he really wants to ride the horsey.

Well... that was...interesting... While I've no issue with Grizzly being a fairly heavy party girl or guy when the mood strikes her, she's a bit...harsh...to be Dionysus.

Going to actual history, Poseidon was the Big Poobah God before Zeus -- first male god to be top dog, in fact (before that, Gaia was the bigshot). I'm talking about actual evolution of the Greek myths as described to History of Religion scholars, not the in-universe genealogy as described in the myths. So, looking from that angle, Poseidon might have a bit of motives to resent Zeus' top spot, which used to be his. That might have something to do with his absence.

As for Spirit-Chan being Poseidon and how it relates to Suwakawan... interestingly, Poseidon was identified mainly the bull, but ALSO with the stallion. Plant food for epileptic trees...

E. E. Nalley wrote: Well... that was...interesting... While I've no issue with Grizzly being a fairly heavy party girl or guy when the mood strikes her, she's a bit...harsh...to be Dionysus.

Dionysus' followers, the Maenads, may have been more "mad, bad, and dangerous to know" than normally ran to Grizzly's taste.