Question Spirits in the material world
- Cryptic
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Topic Author
How solid are spirits and elementals when they are summoned?
I am a caffeine heathen; I prefer the waters of the mountain over the juice of the bean. Keep the Dews coming and no one will be hurt.
- DanZilla
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For instance, to make a contact for just communication with an entity that wants to talk to her didn't take too much effort and power from Morgana... the hardest part was her learning the mechanics of the deed.
On the other hand, you had a group of goths trying to summon a demon and to feed Sara to it... that required a number of individuals participating as well as the promise of a sacrifice... which didn't go well for Bloodworm when the tables were turned during the ritual.
- Kristin Darken
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However, outside a circle, they're in the physical world... where everything non-material takes energy to be made material and sustain 'life'. Thus why things from 'outside' like hallows (avatar or otherwise)... because they are places where the rules are relaxed some, and it costs less to sustain oneself in the world. Anything else? Costs. Visibility? Costs. Material form? Costs. And going home? That's not free either.
In most cases, that will be part of the contract and 'cost' of summoning. The caster commits to protecting and sending the spirit or elemental home. It, on the other hand, is responsible for doing whatever it is that the contract called it for. If a Fire Elemental is brought over to be a combatant, its probably going to manifest as flame under its own power... because doing flame is its thing. No Earth-born mage is going to do fire as well as an Elemental from the plane of Fire. But if the mage wants the elemental to spend its time as a flame in a lantern until an intruder comes in and the elemental is released to attack it? That might be on the caster to 'pay for'. Because that form needs to be sustained to keep the elemental here safely until it does its part.
Mostly, that Essence cost will come 'up front' because it will be bound into the contract. It might be possible for a mage to 'pay into' or 'renew' the contract along the way so its not all paid up front; but only a 'fool' would enter into a contract where the mage promises to pay 'after' service is rendered. Because that's a good way for a being from another world to get dead because they depleted themselves doing a job and then get stiffed on payment, and not have enough left to get home. So the contract itself is binding for more than just as an oath / honor thing. The contract holds the Essence to pay out (or punish) the entity when it accomplishes (or fails) to do as bound.
As to how 'physical' solid... that's going to depend on plenty of things, as Dan said... also... keep in mind that 'some' things are solid - an Earth Elemental will do solid easily. Some things... it's going to take a LOT more energy to make them solid. Air Elementals CAN be solid. But it takes a LOT more power to make Air solid. Or Fire.
Fate guard you and grant you a Light to brighten your Way.
- Cryptic
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Topic Author

I am a caffeine heathen; I prefer the waters of the mountain over the juice of the bean. Keep the Dews coming and no one will be hurt.
- Sir Lee
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- Valentine
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Kristin Darken wrote: As to how 'physical' solid... that's going to depend on plenty of things, as Dan said... also... keep in mind that 'some' things are solid - an Earth Elemental will do solid easily. Some things... it's going to take a LOT more energy to make them solid. Air Elementals CAN be solid. But it takes a LOT more power to make Air solid. Or Fire.
I imagine that is also for certain definitions of solid. Air after all is made up of atoms and molecules that individually are solid. Even fire is made up of atoms and molecules. So while they aren't physically a solid, they would still be trapped by things that would contain a normal version of the substances, at least for a period of time. Being intelligent, they likely could break free.
Don't Drick and Drive.
- Sir Lee
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Valentine wrote: I imagine that is also for certain definitions of solid. Air after all is made up of atoms and molecules that individually are solid. Even fire is made up of atoms and molecules. So while they aren't physically a solid, they would still be trapped by things that would contain a normal version of the substances, at least for a period of time. Being intelligent, they likely could break free.
Uh, Niels Bohr called. He would like to have his atom model back. He knows it's old-fashioned and obsolete, but has sentimental value.
- Kristin Darken
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not saying you're wrong. just that its more than just a 'states of matter' thing. I know some contemporary folks like to impose modern science (states of matter) on the old ideas of the alchemical elements... and that's fine, from a real world chaos magick or contemporary eclectic perspective. but the WU has a far more visible magic tradition (including alchemy) and a real (publicly visible) history of elementals and spirits summoned from other worlds/planes... so you can't push too much "we've improved our understanding scientifically and replaced those old ideas" onto things.
Fate guard you and grant you a Light to brighten your Way.
- Erianaiel
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DanZilla wrote: that required a number of individuals participating as well as the promise of a sacrifice... which didn't go well for Bloodworm when the tables were turned during the ritual.
There was of course a sacrifice ...
(I just cannot think that Gothmog would be interested in humans being sacrificed. The promise of an orgy of epic proportions, that I can see him being interested enough in to bother showing up.)
- ShadowedSin
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How solid are spirits and elementals when they are summoned?
Fae in their enfleshed forms are quite solid. When Maeve invested energy into Morgan so she could speak with those around her, it was a great physical cost to Maeve. To create a physical body that runs until it dies natural or for all eternity (like some fae do) requires extensive amounts of energy, most human do not have that level of energy in their bodies. This is why you don't see a lot of bodiless faeries just making more bodies back in Faerie and coming back across. To make a body requires a lot of work, and to keep it going requires even more. This has been made more evidenced to me by how much stress my little sister goes through in her pregnancy.
So a physical Faerie like Grainne is a massive fount of biological energy, this is one reason they are almost exclusively obligate carnivores as they need the excess calories to stay afloat. This is why you have the Blood Magicks which protect specific clans, why their bodies are so darn hard to kill.
When a faerie manifests its usually stealing the essence of a silly witchling who messed up when it was near. That little burst of essence is usually enough to let it exist for a few second in the flesh or even a few minutes. This is why Faerie Witches who mess up magic are a bit more dangerous since they don't create hobs, they literally attract eldritch horrors like moths to the flame.
"I can only conclude that I'm paying off karma at a vastly accelerated rate."
-Commander Susan Ivanova, Earth Force, Babylon 5