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Question Tatanka

8 years 5 months ago #1 by Kristin Darken
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    • Anyone else see the vids about the bison herd running along side the protests at Standing Rock? Made me smile, big time. :)
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    8 years 5 months ago #2 by elrodw
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    • do you have a link?
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    8 years 5 months ago #3 by DanZilla
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    • This is the video I saw... unfortunately it's not good quality. Don't know if there are any others.

    8 years 5 months ago #4 by Kristin Darken
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    • earthfirstjournal.org/newswire/2016/10/2...standing-rock-video/
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    8 years 5 months ago #5 by Kristin Darken
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    • A couple Lakota folks I know from USD are keeping me posted on facebook with what's going on up there, but here's a direct link to one of the sites hosting the video.
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    8 years 5 months ago - 8 years 5 months ago #6 by Kristin Darken
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    • www.facebook.com/nativeeamericans/videos/1618249545139905/
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    Last Edit: 8 years 5 months ago by Kristin Darken.
    8 years 5 months ago - 8 years 5 months ago #7 by DanZilla
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    • This is a gorgeous video talking about the whole conflict and explaining things from the Native Americans point-of-view.

    http://www.motherjones.com/media/2016/11/short-film-standing-rock-dakota-access-pipeline-america-divided
    Last Edit: 8 years 5 months ago by DanZilla.
    8 years 5 months ago #8 by Kristin Darken
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    • Yep, nice film.
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    8 years 5 months ago #9 by Kettlekorn
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    • So, obviously they're upset that this pipeline is crossing the Missouri river upstream of them, and if it were to ever leak, that would be pretty inconvenient. My question is: so what? What do they want to happen? Is there a better route that this pipeline could take in order to minimize the number of people who'd be affected by any leaks? Are they asking for financial compensation for shouldering that risk? Are there practical safety precautions the pipeline company could be taking but is neglecting? Or do they just want the pipeline to not even exist? In which case, do they think that moving that oil by train or truck is going to be better for the world? Because that oil is going to be moved, one way or another.

    The video mentions that the original plan called for passing near Bismark rather than Standing Rock . The Native Americans are claiming the change is racism, but it looks more like math to me. A leak near Bismark would inconvenience way more people than a leak near Standing Rock.
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    8 years 5 months ago #10 by elrodw
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    • In my years, I've seen people reacting emotionally in 2 areas that makes them Luddites - first is the "noble savage, the pristine pre-Columbian lifestyle" fantasy, where everything was fine until us white folk invaded and stole everything, and if we'd just let things go back to the way they were 600 years ago, all would be wonderful. The second is NIMBY - people want the benefits of a technology or resource, only "Not In My BackYard".

    As noted, the oil is going to move, one way or the other. If not this way, then another, and as was found with the oil from Canada's tar sands, it's a lot more volatile, and shipping by rail and truck has caused massive fires and explosions in towns along the route.

    Now if they didn't get adequate compensation, they have a beef. But I suspect the tribe is being used by environmentalist Luddites with the Noble Savage delusion to stop ALL progress in a really sick attempt to restore something that really never was.
    Never give up, Never surrender! Captain Peter Quincy Taggert
    8 years 5 months ago #11 by Domoviye
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    • I watched a 'safe' train full of fuel blow up a Quebec town and kill about 45 people. Properly maintained oil pipes are so much safer than truck or rail, but the trains and trucks are owned by some very rich people who make big donations. So pipe lines are maligned and held back so the older, dirtier method can keep going.
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    8 years 5 months ago #12 by Dawnfyre
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    • Like the protesting being done here for both the Kinder-Morgen pipeline and the doubling of the Trans-Mountain pipeline.

    the KM is new, with a new port facility.

    the doubling of capacity of a 50 year old pipeline with a zero incident record is good economically.
    The only issue with either that has any validity is the increase in seaborn oil traffic and the increased possibility of an accident. ( more vessels in the channels being higher risk of a problem )

    Though the handling at this terminus of the Trans-Mountain line has left a lot to be desired, there is some seepage from the processing plant into the harbour. This is not a large amount, more oil is dumped when bilges are pumped from most freighters. The processing facility has been working on upgrading their facility and procedures, as well as the seepage being monitored now they have stopped the source. ( it's in the groundwater seeping into the harbour, the seepage will stop as soon as the last already in the groundwater seeps into the harbour. All seepage is being cleaned up continually at the expense of Chevron, the owner of this facility. )

    the ECONOMIC benefits of having doubled capacity in one port and adding another port for the region are staggering, that is a lot of jobs / tax revenue for us and will benefit everyone in British Columbia, with some benefits actually making into the Yukon Territory. ( The Yukon gets medical coverage handled by BC Medical ) An increase in tax revenue means there is more in the budget for things like medical, schools, road maintenance.
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    8 years 5 months ago #13 by Kristin Darken
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    • To be honest, the issue is a bit complex. And that, to Native tribes who have been swindled dozens of times over the centuries until they're now stuck on crappy pieces of land called reservations.... is worrisome. What the oil company and business people are pointing out is that it doesn't cross on their lands... so they really have no direct complaint. True, its only going there because OTHER people didn't want it going near THEIR property and it got pushed down to this location in the hopes that no one would complain that its just upstream of a reservation.

    Also, they will tell you, the tribe was given fair notice to come in and complain but didn't take advantage of that time before plans were set in motion. More than likely this is mainly a result of paperwork manipulation... send notice to someone important but who doesn't know what it means and then when no one shows you can say "see, they don't have any problems... again, ways the government has tricked the tribes far too many times."

    They also point out that the water source for the tribe's drinking water 'would' be a problem if it stays where it is, but there is already work done or being done to move that intake to another location. Of course, that location is further DOWN stream... so I'm not sure its a valid point. Besides, I don't think they're worried about JUST drinking water. If that pipe cross leaks, it will destroy the ecology along that river probably most of the way through the Dakotas, and possibly all the way to Kansas City depending on how much they spill.

    It's not so hard to understand why anyone would want it stopped.

    The REAL concern is, it's going to go in somewhere and its just as much a risk for the environment no matter where it's put. So instead of fighting the tribes on 'where' it goes... give them a reason to buy in on the project. Super-over-engineer it. Give it multiple layers of protection and hire locals/natives to maintain and monitor it. Put the ability to prevent it from becoming a disaster for anyone in their hands. Will it cost a little more? Ya... but so do delays while protesting is going on. ,
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    8 years 5 months ago #14 by Dawnfyre
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    • Kristin Darken wrote: The REAL concern is, it's going to go in somewhere and its just as much a risk for the environment no matter where it's put. So instead of fighting the tribes on 'where' it goes... give them a reason to buy in on the project. Super-over-engineer it. Give it multiple layers of protection and hire locals/natives to maintain and monitor it. Put the ability to prevent it from becoming a disaster for anyone in their hands. Will it cost a little more? Ya... but so do delays while protesting is going on. ,


    Just about the only real threats to pipelines are seismic events and river spans. IF the pipeline is tunneled deep under the riverbed you remove the higher risk of a ship causing damage to the pipeline.

    Earthquakes being the unpredictable threat to pipe integrity that you can only engineer to resist damage from and hope you get lucky.

    Getting the Natives involved by having them responsible for the construction and maintenance is the best way to have the protests ended, problem is will the oil company be willing to go that route and train them to do the work?
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    8 years 5 months ago #15 by Valentine
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    • If I read Wikipedia correct, the TransAlaska Pipeline has had 4 leaks. Two were caused by malevolent actions, an explosive used to puncture the pipeline and a drunk that managed to put a bullet through a weld. The other incidents led to a spill that went into a holding tank and overflow area, I believe this was fully contained. Another leak was in the basement of a pump station. So it looks like the only the uncontained leaks were intentionally done. The pipeline has survived a forest fire and magnitude 7.9 and 6.7 earthquakes without leaking.
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    8 years 5 months ago - 8 years 5 months ago #16 by Arcanist Lupus
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    • Kristin Darken wrote: Also, they will tell you, the tribe was given fair notice to come in and complain but didn't take advantage of that time before plans were set in motion. More than likely this is mainly a result of paperwork manipulation... send notice to someone important but who doesn't know what it means and then when no one shows you can say "see, they don't have any problems... again, ways the government has tricked the tribes far too many times."


    The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy wrote: “But the plans were on display…”
    “On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.”
    “That’s the display department.”
    “With a flashlight.”
    “Ah, well, the lights had probably gone.”
    “So had the stairs.”
    “But look, you found the notice, didn’t you?”
    “Yes,” said Arthur, “yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.”


    Actually, I'm a bit surprised I haven't seen more people referencing Arthur Dent's lie in in front of the bulldozer with regards to the pipeline.
    "Shared pain is lessened; shared joy, increased — thus do we refute entropy." - Spider Robinson
    Last Edit: 8 years 5 months ago by Arcanist Lupus.
    8 years 4 months ago #17 by Kristin Darken
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    • www.facebook.com/CollectiveEvolutionPage...s/10154695434748908/
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    8 years 4 months ago #18 by Kettlekorn
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    • Things I learned from this video:
    1. Even though clean energy is "much cheaper," poor countries for some reason choose to buy more expensive foreign oil instead.
    2. Plastic bullets, tear gas, and sonic weapons are examples of "awesome military power."
    3. Trespassing and handcuffing yourself to somebody else's property is a means of "advocating for law and order."
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    8 years 4 months ago #19 by Kristin Darken
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    • Meh... F the group whose page its on. As with most activist groups, they aren't about facts as much as they are about the cause. The point of the link is the Robert Kennedy video where he talks about the deadlines and investment system that explains the rush the rush to completion on the pipeline.... and why they can afford to get political support for this.
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    8 years 4 months ago #20 by Kettlekorn
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    • Each of those things I mentioned came directly from what Robert Kennedy, Jr. said in the video. This is not a matter of me not trusting him because of whatever group posted the video; I ignored them entirely. This is a matter of me not trusting him because the nature of his video is manipulative instead of informative.

    But okay, lets look specifically at the pipeline investment argument he's making. He's saying that to keep their domination of the market, the oil companies have to build a bunch of infrastructure so that we're invested in it and have to keep buying expensive oil. The first part is true. The second is bullshit. He's portraying it as a sunk cost fallacy scenario, as though people are going to buy expensive oil so that they don't feel like they wasted money building a pipeline. Nonsense. What is actually happening is that the oil companies know that they need to keep their prices low to remain competitive, therefor they need to invest in infrastructure that will allow them to reduce the costs of producing and distributing oil. The pipeline wouldn't force anybody to buy oil. It would just let the oil companies sell it for less than if they had to ship it via alternate means, meaning more people will choose to buy it. Nothing nefarious about that.

    Nefarious would be refusing to permit third-world nations to use oil when it's cheaper than alternatives. Yes, pollution sucks, but so does oppression and death. If the cost of the third-world modernizing is them burning some oil along the way, then so be it. Pollution can be cleaned. The dead stay dead.
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    8 years 4 months ago #21 by Kristin Darken
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    • www.kfyrtv.com/content/news/ND-State-Hea...field-404884465.html


    Oh, the ironies...

    Fortunately, this isn't the one at the reservation.. but are we going to keep saying it won't happen when its pretty clear it does? All the friggen time?

    For the moment though, it looks like the fight is won. The Army Corp of Engineers has called this one.

    www.ncai.org/news/articles/2016/12/04/ar...ss-pipeline-crossing
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    8 years 4 months ago #22 by Kettlekorn
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    • Kristin Darken wrote: www.kfyrtv.com/content/news/ND-State-Hea...field-404884465.html


    Oh, the ironies...

    Fortunately, this isn't the one at the reservation.. but are we going to keep saying it won't happen when its pretty clear it does? All the friggen time?

    I don't think anybody has argued that pipelines don't leak. Of course they leak. But what superior alternative is being proposed?
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    8 years 4 months ago #23 by Kristin Darken
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    • It's not the responsibility of the individual whose rights are getting trampled or whose community's ecosystem is getting trashed to provide those answers. You want to make billions of dollars in profit by moving oil from Canada to the Gulf of Mexico? Good for you. Find a way to do it that won't result in billions of dollars in damages and long term destruction of the environment. If you can't? Then find another means of moving your oil. Or find something other than oil to use for power ... or whatever you are using it for. That's the whole point, right? Instead of pushing for every last bit of profit and destroying everything else in the process... find a slightly less cheap way to go about it that IS safe. Maybe your profit will be a little lower.... but... deal with it.
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    8 years 4 months ago #24 by Sir Lee
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    • You know, I can't help but wonder if over the next few years we won't be seeing EPA channeling Traylor Howard's character in the first season of "Two Guys, a Girl and a Pizza Place"... you know, making up all sorts of outrageous excuses, like "why are the birds complaining about the oil spill? They are getting a skin oil treatment for free."
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    8 years 4 months ago #25 by Kettlekorn
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    • Kristin Darken wrote: It's not the responsibility of the individual whose rights are getting trampled or whose community's ecosystem is getting trashed to provide those answers.

    Sure, but if they want me to support them, then it is their responsibility to convince me that they're going to make things better instead of worse.
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    8 years 4 months ago #26 by Kristin Darken
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    • I think you have more of a problem with the protesters/activists than with their cause...
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    8 years 4 months ago #27 by elrodw
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    • Some causes are worthy of protesting. Some are just being used by external entities with an agenda.

    As an example, in the 70's, during the American Indian Movement, I had a good idea of what the average Lakota thought of them when I read some bathroom wall graffiti on a reservation. AIM - Assholes in Moccasins. It was NOT in an area frequented by tourists and truck drivers, and with all the agreeing notes, it was easy to figure out which group probably wrote it.

    They didn't want to support the troublemaking and protests of that external group.

    Times have changed. One has to get the facts, and then try to convince people who are swayed by the extremists and outsiders by appeals to emotions and scare tactics.
    Never give up, Never surrender! Captain Peter Quincy Taggert
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