Question Re-installed ban

Whateley also has students from all over the world, and some of them from countries where even in our reality it's a death sentence, or banishment, to come out. So Poe is very important for those students.

Would these activists out a Pakistani exchange student who was transgendered? Or help them keep the secret knowing their fate if it got out.

I'm sorry to say that I think some might indeed out them, in order to create a strong response they can use for their activism. To some people the cause is far more important than the people who are part of it.

Kristin Darken wrote: Well... it happened. Trump reversed the Obama orders to include transgender servicemen/women. What that means for those who came out believing they were free of the don't ask-don't tell era closeted method, I don't know. I know that some very senior officers have stated that they are against this... but, its the military, ultimately orders are orders and all you really can do is log that you're acting on orders under protest.

I bring this up not to get into the political partisan shitstorm that is flying around the issue... but because the Whateley Universe has historically caught some flack from the TG activist community about it being unrealistic that the LGBT kids are 'forced' to remain closeted in Poe Cottage and that changelings and 'made' to keep their gender flip quiet. Usually we remind them that the WU hasn't made the same strides on improving LGBT rights that the real world has and that these kids are still in the mode of duck and cover... hiding themselves. Because they're use to be judged and persecuted and isolated. Much as those of us in the real world who grew up in previous generations. Or those who are about to see the arm of justice swing back the other way for a bit.

As much as I hate it for my own personal reasons, I have to say that this is could be just a minor setback given how presidencies operate in the U.S. One thing that many people fail to remember is the many setbacks that have plagued other endeavors due to bigotry, hatred, timidity and other various reasons. One other factor to remember is that even as laws are passed to prevent such happenings, people are creative on how to make their agenda still valid through a play of words and so forth. This also goes to be true with whosoever is in office. My own personal belief is that people who thought one thing are now finding out the reality of their actions. For some it will be an eye opener. Bigotry is never gone, its only hidden until it has a chance to show itself along with hatred. Not everyone will change.

Media and technology is now a new factor in weeding out those who were under the misguided concept that they could show themselves without a mask. Just as its used to bring those of like minds faster together. I'm sure that there will be a firestorm from many sides and just like those in the 60's new generations are now making their voices known as with learning from their own mistakes.

I have to wonder though, will it survive the courts, without ensuing "tremendous costs"

My standard answer to the activists who complain about the Poe Secret is:
"Forced to hide? How so? Hippolyta is out. Carmilla was out. Kayda is out as lesbian. And so is Chou, as bi. Zenith's cover is pretty thin. None of them faced any repercussions for outing themselves. They are only required not to out OTHERS. Are you against people being able to choose if and when to out themselves?"

Sir Lee wrote: My standard answer to the activists who complain about the Poe Secret is:
"Forced to hide? How so? Hippolyta is out. Carmilla was out. Kayda is out as lesbian. And so is Chou, as bi. Zenith's cover is pretty thin. None of them faced any repercussions for outing themselves. They are only required not to out OTHERS. Are you against people being able to choose if and when to out themselves?"

Ayla is out as being what he is.

Sir Lee wrote: My standard answer to the activists who complain about the Poe Secret is:
"Forced to hide? How so? Hippolyta is out. Carmilla was out. Kayda is out as lesbian. And so is Chou, as bi. Zenith's cover is pretty thin. None of them faced any repercussions for outing themselves. They are only required not to out OTHERS. Are you against people being able to choose if and when to out themselves?"

They are also coerced into submitting to a mental compulsion to enforce that requirement.

I am against that. Period. No amount of "Think of the children!" appeals will change that.

I served during the DADT era, it was...interesting. On submarines we didn't really care so long as the person could do their job. On shore, well everyone "acted" like they were on the same team so to speak. I will avoid going into the TG open/closeted discussion, as let's face it, this place is an escape from reality, who wants more real-world politics in their life?...

Now, as far as "hiding" the GBLT students in Poe. It does, to a large degree parallel the "real world". Yes, there are some outliers in the data, but that matches the "real world" also. Let's face reality, while homosexuals are far more accepted in the US now compared to the past, the same is not really true on the TG side of things. That segment of society catches far more flak than the "gay community" does. At times even from homosexuals. Take my small, pudunk town in the deep South. We have had homosexual and bisexual members of the community, they are often treated as less than equals. No lynchings or anything like that, but definitely not as equals on the whole. To my knowledge, we have not had any TG community members...but even the gays here disparage TG's with great vehemence. Now, that is just using a small town of about 1,000 people, but my experience is that it is not limited to small redneck towns. Many "conservative" areas tend toward those views. Demographic data suggest that small towns are more likely to be "conservative" than large cities...considering Berlin NH has a population of about 10,000, it is not unlikely for it and the more rural surrounding areas to be more "conservative" than say NYC or San Francisco.

Lastly, for anyone wanting a reasonably recent view on the military service angle, I will gladly discuss what I observed in my time under the end era of DADT via PM (I got out in 2007, the repeal was in 2010). Though I will qualify that with an observation that submarine life was different than most other areas of the military and the views did not always align with those of "big Navy" or the pentagon.

Kristin Darken wrote: The compulsion is magick. It only works because they want it to work. It doesn't prevent revealing anything... it aids in accidentally saying something that would reveal it unawares. ie... it helps Poe kids who aren't good liers or who are thinking of ten other things as more important right now from giving something away because their mouths opened before their brains engaged.

Totally not the same thing.

^ This. As I understand the compulsion it does not prevent a student from intentionally outing themselves, only from accidentally revealing the arrangements at Poe itself. "Bob" could out himself as a FtM homosexual all day. He could not say, "Poe is where all the GBLT kids go". I would not consider that a major compulsion, the ethics of it would however fall into something of a gray area IMO. However, it would seem to parallel a "Sorcerer's contract" in a way to me, and if entered into voluntarily would clearly pose no ethical problem at all. I think the objections are more about the involuntary aspect of the arrangement than the effect.

null0trooper wrote:

Sir Lee wrote: My standard answer to the activists who complain about the Poe Secret is:
"Forced to hide? How so? Hippolyta is out. Carmilla was out. Kayda is out as lesbian. And so is Chou, as bi. Zenith's cover is pretty thin. None of them faced any repercussions for outing themselves. They are only required not to out OTHERS. Are you against people being able to choose if and when to out themselves?"

They are also coerced into submitting to a mental compulsion to enforce that requirement.

I am against that. Period. No amount of "Think of the children!" appeals will change that.

Remember that the whole school is under a magical compulsion.

Kristin Darken wrote: The compulsion is magick. It only works because they want it to work. It doesn't prevent revealing anything... it aids in accidentally saying something that would reveal it unawares. ie... it helps Poe kids who aren't good liers or who are thinking of ten other things as more important right now from giving something away because their mouths opened before their brains engaged.

Totally not the same thing.

If that were so, then there would be no need for staff to chase down students who have no intention of revealing the secret (Anomaly) nor in staff members locking kids in a room with no restroom facilities using magick that very much does work whether they want to be locked in or not (Gen 2).

Yes, many teens would say yes because they think magic is cool or because they respect authority too much to question it. Yes, the school can clearly get away with it. No, you don't have to allow LBGT kids or their parents recourse in this matter. Both are matters of the literary canon of the setting.

I do understand these things. None of that changes my own ethical stance that a line is thus being crossed.

Valentine wrote:

null0trooper wrote:

Sir Lee wrote: My standard answer to the activists who complain about the Poe Secret is:
"Forced to hide? How so? Hippolyta is out. Carmilla was out. Kayda is out as lesbian. And so is Chou, as bi. Zenith's cover is pretty thin. None of them faced any repercussions for outing themselves. They are only required not to out OTHERS. Are you against people being able to choose if and when to out themselves?"

They are also coerced into submitting to a mental compulsion to enforce that requirement.

I am against that. Period. No amount of "Think of the children!" appeals will change that.

Remember that the whole school is under a magical compulsion.

As I said, whether it's an ounce or a pound of compulsions, that doesn't make it right.

Otherwise, the topic of the ban on transgendered servicemembers shouldn't ever come up for discussion once people remember that President Trump is still the Commander-in-Chief of the U.S. Armed Forces while he's in office and can set limits on who is accepted by the same mechanisms that his predecessor could remove those limits. But the fact that he can do something (or that Whateley Staff can do something) has no bearing on whether I must agree with it or not.

Of course, since most of the characters are Poesies, what we don't realize is that all the other cottages have their own magical compulsions. Like the one in Whitman that urges the residents to prank Dickinson, or the one in Melville that gradually makes people snootier, or the one in Hawthorne that makes people think Louis is actually in his tank like he claims.

null0trooper wrote:

Kristin Darken wrote: The compulsion is magick. It only works because they want it to work. It doesn't prevent revealing anything... it aids in accidentally saying something that would reveal it unawares. ie... it helps Poe kids who aren't good liers or who are thinking of ten other things as more important right now from giving something away because their mouths opened before their brains engaged.

Totally not the same thing.

If that were so, then there would be no need for staff to chase down students who have no intention of revealing the secret (Anomaly) nor in staff members locking kids in a room with no restroom facilities using magick that very much does work whether they want to be locked in or not (Gen 2).

Yes, many teens would say yes because they think magic is cool or because they respect authority too much to question it. Yes, the school can clearly get away with it. No, you don't have to allow LBGT kids or their parents recourse in this matter. Both are matters of the literary canon of the setting.

I do understand these things. None of that changes my own ethical stance that a line is thus being crossed.

The thing to remember is that implications of it are being discussed in the stories. It's not simply being put forward as a good thing that everyone should support.
That makes it more realistic and the ethics of it does make an interesting sub plot.

Of course in Gen 2, we are seeing the repercussions of someone that knows the secret, and can shrug off the spell.

Rose Bunny wrote: Of course in Gen 2, we are seeing the repercussions of someone that knows the secret, and can shrug off the spell.

I have a Secret and I won't tell.