×

Notice

The forum is in read only mode.
× Similar to the main general chat... but let's keep this limited to topics directly relating to writing and Independent Fiction.

Posting rules: Any registered member can create or post to a thread.

Question Concept Idea

9 years 5 months ago - 9 years 5 months ago #1 by E M Pisek
  • E M Pisek
  • E M Pisek's Avatar Topic Author


  • Posts: 1299

  • Gender: Male
  • Birthdate: 24 Apr 1960
  • What is Whateleys rules about robots and such? I was thinking along the lines of Asimov's positronic brains and such.

    I was thinking along the lines of the Outer Limits "The Glass Hand" as with many others such as the cartoon "Eight Man" and Daniel from Issac Asimov. Not so much as being able to instantly change his appearance but from a first person's perspective of what its like to 'awaken'.

    What is - was. What was - is.
    Last Edit: 9 years 5 months ago by E M Pisek.
    9 years 5 months ago #2 by Sir Lee
    • Sir Lee
    • Sir Lee's Avatar


  • Posts: 3113

  • Gender: Male
  • Birthdate: 08 Nov 1966
  • Well, an Asimovian robot (as opposed to, say, an assembly-line robot) can be described as an AI within a mechanical body. So the rules for AIs apply.

    Basically, yes, there are really advanced level AIs in the Whateley Universe. Two of them have received considerable "screen time": the Palm and Carmen. Depending on how you define an AI, the Palm might not be one, however -- he _might_ be an uploaded consciousness, or he _might_ be an AI that mimics the mind of a deceased person. Carmen appears to be pure AI, but there is quite a bit of mystery about her creation that E.E.Nalley is not ready to reveal to us fans yet.

    Due to the damage the Palm has done in the past, there are laws in the WU against the creation high-level AIs. Carmen is therefore an illegal AI, but Carson is tolerating her existence because so far she appears to be benign and useful.

    Oh, and the Palm has "possessed" mechanical bodies in the past, such as Ergonomic's BOLO prototype in "May Your Death Be Sweet." That is the closest we have seen fo a "classic" sci-fi robot in the WU, I think.

    Don't call me "Shirley." You will surely make me surly.
    9 years 5 months ago - 9 years 5 months ago #3 by NeoMagus
    • NeoMagus
    • NeoMagus's Avatar


  • Posts: 1053

  • Gender: Male
  • Birthdate: 26 Jul 1991
  • Sounds like you're talking primarily about AI concepts rather than just pure robotics. Best place to look for that kind of info is probably any of the Merry stories. I do know though that most authorities in the Whateley Universe are VERY leery of anything even resembling true AI (hence all of the secrecy around Carmen), so that's definitely something you would have to take into account.

    Edit: Dangnabbit, Sir Lee's already back to his old ninja habits...

    ... . . -.- / .--- ..- ... - .. -.-. . .-.-.- / .-.. --- ...- . / -- . .-. -.-. -.-- .-.-.- / .-- .- .-.. -.- / .... ..- -- -... .-.. -.-- / .-- .. - .... / -.-- --- ..- .-. / --. --- -.. .-.-.-
    Last Edit: 9 years 5 months ago by NeoMagus.
    9 years 5 months ago - 9 years 5 months ago #4 by E M Pisek
    • E M Pisek
    • E M Pisek's Avatar Topic Author


  • Posts: 1299

  • Gender: Male
  • Birthdate: 24 Apr 1960
  • Thanks and as I haven't fully read all of the back stories I'm sure that it would be of concern. I was thinking along the lines of where like the 'Palm" would be a bit of transference but within limited scope.

    No real background history of who 'it' is, unsure if 'it' is thinking in real or artificial terms. A learning being starting to grasp its own way. More likely to be Fan based of course but a conceptional idea that's running through my head. Perhaps along the lines of 'Data' or more along the likes of 'Bishop", but not as advanced as in say build. Metallic without sensations as there is no 'skin' persay. Also where it has to decide its own fate given how others fear it.

    Part newborn, part child, part young adult as it learns to develop its own set of routines. Logical hazards would be its destruction as with it needing to recharge itself as it doesn't have a continuous power source, as with needing a human disguise.

    The idea flowed from a bit of Carmen when she took over a suit, as with Astro Boy in what it would be like to find itself 'alive' in a world that doesn't want it. Would it follow the same rules as Daniel or other robots or would it be what others would fear it 'could' be.

    Why it was constructed along with its purpose would be along the lines of Questor itself.

    What is - was. What was - is.
    Last Edit: 9 years 5 months ago by E M Pisek.
    9 years 5 months ago #5 by Mister D
    • Mister D
    • Mister D's Avatar


  • Posts: 832

  • Gender: Male
  • Birthdate: Unknown
  • You could also have the AI being a class 2 entity embodied in an artificial hallow.

    It would make a nice devise for someone to develope by accident, that would end up at Whateley, via the same protocol that was used to allow Sara Waite to stay there.


    Measure Twice
    9 years 5 months ago - 9 years 5 months ago #6 by E M Pisek
    • E M Pisek
    • E M Pisek's Avatar Topic Author


  • Posts: 1299

  • Gender: Male
  • Birthdate: 24 Apr 1960
  • I'm kinda also seeing the reluctance of wanting to have certain AI beings, robots, or Androids used in Whateleys universe itself. It could be seen as an overused troupe that negates the purpose of the universe itself.

    I think along the lines of the Vision as with Metallo as with Brainiac.

    But with certain limitations itself, it can be used. As you said an entity that is forced into a shell for some nefarious reason or experiment that went to crap.

    Sorry my mind is churning with ideas and such that I can't let it go at the moment.

    Another problem would be 'Why' would they allow it to be at Whateley as its a school for mutants and it would not be classified as one.

    What is - was. What was - is.
    Last Edit: 9 years 5 months ago by E M Pisek.
    9 years 5 months ago #7 by Mister D
    • Mister D
    • Mister D's Avatar


  • Posts: 832

  • Gender: Male
  • Birthdate: Unknown
  • There is Medley from Christmas Chicanery.

    She doesn't seem to be restricted under the AI laws, but her origin has been left undefined so far. She hasn't appeared in any other stories yet.

    It's also similar to the machine spirit that underlies the Iteration X from the technocracy in White Wolf's Mage: The Ascension V.1


    Measure Twice
    9 years 5 months ago - 9 years 5 months ago #8 by E M Pisek
    • E M Pisek
    • E M Pisek's Avatar Topic Author


  • Posts: 1299

  • Gender: Male
  • Birthdate: 24 Apr 1960
  • Given how I had stated about using the concept of the positron brain I don't really like the idea of the three laws it would imply. Or that if it was used with a sentiment being that being would therefore be inclined on seeking ways to break such rules. to make them-self more in-control of their life even if it is artificial. I was also thinking along the lines of doing it from a 1st persons perspective in that 'how' that individual would feel or lack the emotions that one should feel.

    I feel that I'm going to have to look at these stories also, but with trepidation. Its just a matter of time it seems as I also wish to have it 'my story' and not feel the pressure of copying another persons idea or work.

    As I'm not familiar with The white wolfs Mage (I'm assuming its not from Whateley) I think I'll not be reading about it anytime soon.

    What is - was. What was - is.
    Last Edit: 9 years 5 months ago by E M Pisek.
    9 years 5 months ago #9 by Sir Lee
    • Sir Lee
    • Sir Lee's Avatar


  • Posts: 3113

  • Gender: Male
  • Birthdate: 08 Nov 1966
  • Medley had her origin told in a fanfic. She's a mutant.

    Similar to Metallo... we have Deathlist and Hive. Both are cyborgs with very little remaining organic parts.

    Don't call me "Shirley." You will surely make me surly.
    9 years 5 months ago #10 by E M Pisek
    • E M Pisek
    • E M Pisek's Avatar Topic Author


  • Posts: 1299

  • Gender: Male
  • Birthdate: 24 Apr 1960
  • Thank you Shirley. I mean Sir Lee. Dang I'm getting drunk off of how much I still have to read. Maybe by 2020.

    What is - was. What was - is.
    9 years 5 months ago #11 by NeoMagus
    • NeoMagus
    • NeoMagus's Avatar


  • Posts: 1053

  • Gender: Male
  • Birthdate: 26 Jul 1991
  • Ib12us wrote: Thank you Shirley. I mean Sir Lee. Dang I'm getting drunk off of how much I still have to read. Maybe by 2020.


    Oh snap...I never thought I'd actually see someone try that with Sir Lee's signature... :blink:

    ... . . -.- / .--- ..- ... - .. -.-. . .-.-.- / .-.. --- ...- . / -- . .-. -.-. -.-- .-.-.- / .-- .- .-.. -.- / .... ..- -- -... .-.. -.-- / .-- .. - .... / -.-- --- ..- .-. / --. --- -.. .-.-.-
    9 years 5 months ago #12 by Kristin Darken
    • Kristin Darken
    • Kristin Darken's Avatar


  • Posts: 3898

  • Gender: Unknown
  • Birthdate: Unknown
  • One of the things to remember is that while there are 'those other things' that show up in comic books as heroes... granted powers by a higher being (Imbued), using the powers that are tied with a special object (Power Gems or Empowered), collective consciousness granted abilities (Batsons), and so on... they are not the focus of the Whateley Academy stories. Sure, we could have all sorts of stories about Ty West, alien graduate student and his manipulation of the Earth's political system in the pursuit of an A on his dissertation. We could be telling stories about super groups that are completely non-mutant class paranormals... some of whom are stronger than the average mutant... some of whom are weaker.

    But ultimately, its not 'just' the super power genre that makes Whateley what it is. It's the genre, compressed into a power scale that is still amazing compared to normal humans... but is not 'that' huge a leap beyond humanity's capability with machines, tools, and innovative ideas... so these mutants aren't entirely alien to us. They're still human. And more importantly, they're human teens. Trying to learn about the world. Trying to get grasp on their own identities.

    So, when we talk about AI's and androids incapable of being distinguished from humans... it's not that such things "can't possibly happen" ... its that we don't want the story to go down that road, because if such things existed, the chain of events that would happen would quickly make mutants a non-issue in society.

    Fate guard you and grant you a Light to brighten your Way.
    9 years 5 months ago #13 by E M Pisek
    • E M Pisek
    • E M Pisek's Avatar Topic Author


  • Posts: 1299

  • Gender: Male
  • Birthdate: 24 Apr 1960
  • Thus my reasoning in one of own earlier replies. It could possibly be nice Fanfic but would not necessarily blend into the world here. This as you said, is a place about teens learning to cope with life with its ups and downs and thus their human feelings on being who they are turning out to be. Its the trials we had to go through as we grew up but on a more grander scale.

    The powers are downplayed for a reason. Most comics focus to much on them as a way to get readers to read them. But there are the few that downplay it with the other drama that others feel should be in the forefront.

    What is - was. What was - is.
    9 years 5 months ago #14 by Kristin Darken
    • Kristin Darken
    • Kristin Darken's Avatar


  • Posts: 3898

  • Gender: Unknown
  • Birthdate: Unknown
  • Ib12us wrote: The powers are downplayed for a reason.

    I talk about this a lot when people present the more radical character ideas for comment/tips. It's far too easy to make the mistake of a very unique character still being perfectly normal in how they think and perceive the world. The truth is typically going to be, the more different someone's abilities and perceptions from the norm; the more likely they think and grow differently as well. And the harder it will be to bridge the communication gap between us. Take the autism spectrum as a real world example of what I'm talking about.

    Imagine that every time you walk into your movie room that someone has reset the color/temperature, brightness, contrast, and focus settings on your display, all twenty channels of frequency control on your sound system's EQ, the speaker placement and direction, volume controls, and so forth. Every time. All of those things are different. How much different will your experience of movies be compared to someone whose settings are set just where they like them and never change? Will you still enjoy them? Entirely possible. Will you enjoy them for the same reasons? How much of your evaluation of a given movie would be based on the particular settings on a given night? And how will that change how you communicate with other people when you talk about movies?

    And that's only two senses in a very limited part of your life. Being a mutant, having powers... will change how 'human' you are. And the more powers involved, the more complex that departure will be. And thus, the harder it will be to consistently present that character following a cause-effect rational chain of events. And, of course, the other important part... the less interested an audience is going to be in trying to understand it. We have to care about a character to spend time reading about them. If we cannot empathize with them, or at least sympathize, we will very quickly walk away from their story and find something we do care about.

    Fate guard you and grant you a Light to brighten your Way.
    9 years 5 months ago - 9 years 5 months ago #15 by E M Pisek
    • E M Pisek
    • E M Pisek's Avatar Topic Author


  • Posts: 1299

  • Gender: Male
  • Birthdate: 24 Apr 1960
  • Very understandable.

    Without empathy for the character, the writer will also loose interest themselves. Its like your favorite tv show but is sinking low in the ratings. The writers begin to do odd things to liven up the show in the hopes of either bring back the audience or newer ones. The shows where the kids grow up or something other and the writers interject new blood by having a baby or kid appear suddenly on the doorstep.

    Now here is someone who introduces a robot but is not a mutant and thus throws a kink into the system. Should it be allowed or will there be another reason for the introduction? How does it merit being in a world of mutants and such. It deviates from the purpose of the world itself. Yes there are villains and well as hero's along with neutrals but they all have one thing in common. Their mutants and this is what the worlds about. How each of them cope with their newfound abilities.

    I understand the underlying reasons you have presented. You don't want to clutter this universe with unwanted deviations (I don't mean to make that sound harsh). Its just a factor that the creators of this universe have instituted else we get Ultra man as well as Gigantor who have no place in being here in the first place.

    Use them as props but not to upset the delicate balance you have here. And if allowed there will be others who will question why one was allowed and not theirs.

    What is - was. What was - is.
    Last Edit: 9 years 5 months ago by E M Pisek.
    9 years 5 months ago #16 by annachie
    • annachie
    • annachie's Avatar


  • Posts: 597

  • Gender: Unknown
  • Birthdate: Unknown
  • Possibly more work than you were planning, but what if your AIish character attended Whateley as part of a group.
    A group of mutant teenagers, and the AI, that were somehow thrown together by events, and when the kids were sent to Whateley the AI was as well.
    Possibly for protection, possibly because of emotional attachment, possibly because it had become the effective carer for a character who was badly damaged/changed.
    9 years 5 months ago - 9 years 5 months ago #17 by E M Pisek
    • E M Pisek
    • E M Pisek's Avatar Topic Author


  • Posts: 1299

  • Gender: Male
  • Birthdate: 24 Apr 1960
  • annachie wrote: Possibly more work than you were planning, but what if your AIish character attended Whateley as part of a group.
    A group of mutant teenagers, and the AI, that were somehow thrown together by events, and when the kids were sent to Whateley the AI was as well.
    Possibly for protection, possibly because of emotional attachment, possibly because it had become the effective carer for a character who was badly damaged/changed.


    Its not so much as work as it the idea of where it should progress. I could think of where a Gadetter made a robot for say his son or friend as a way for him to be mobile. A neurological helmet attached to his head sending signals to the body. He has eyes to see, as well as a limited ability to have his conscious attached to the robot. In essence he is able to move once more but with limited processes while his broken body lies on a bed or sits immobile in a chair.

    I'm seeing this as a form of think tank forum on how to create the idea with the help of others.

    What is - was. What was - is.
    Last Edit: 9 years 5 months ago by E M Pisek.
    9 years 5 months ago #18 by annachie
    • annachie
    • annachie's Avatar


  • Posts: 597

  • Gender: Unknown
  • Birthdate: Unknown
  • For some reason I'm thinking of one of Anne McCaffrey's "The Ship who ..." books.

    Actually, it sounds a bit like an engineering form of Fuub.
    9 years 5 months ago - 9 years 5 months ago #19 by E M Pisek
    • E M Pisek
    • E M Pisek's Avatar Topic Author


  • Posts: 1299

  • Gender: Male
  • Birthdate: 24 Apr 1960
  • I got that series. As with the "Pern" series also.

    What is - was. What was - is.
    Last Edit: 9 years 5 months ago by E M Pisek.
    9 years 5 months ago #20 by Cryptic
    • Cryptic
    • Cryptic's Avatar


  • Posts: 1746

  • Gender: Unknown
  • Birthdate: 04 Jun 1983
  • Shame her son didn't stick closer to Anna's notes and fubared the setting.

    I am a caffeine heathen; I prefer the waters of the mountain over the juice of the bean. Keep the Dews coming and no one will be hurt.
    9 years 5 months ago #21 by E M Pisek
    • E M Pisek
    • E M Pisek's Avatar Topic Author


  • Posts: 1299

  • Gender: Male
  • Birthdate: 24 Apr 1960
  • She was getting old and passed much over to him. I didn't really feel the magic afterwards.

    What is - was. What was - is.
    9 years 5 months ago #22 by Arcanist Lupus
    • Arcanist Lupus
    • Arcanist Lupus's Avatar


  • Posts: 1820

  • Gender: Male
  • Birthdate: Unknown
  • Cryptic wrote: Shame her son didn't stick closer to Anna's notes and fubared the setting.

    Did he? I stopped reading when they were still writing in tandem.

    "Shared pain is lessened; shared joy, increased — thus do we refute entropy." - Spider Robinson
    9 years 5 months ago #23 by E M Pisek
    • E M Pisek
    • E M Pisek's Avatar Topic Author


  • Posts: 1299

  • Gender: Male
  • Birthdate: 24 Apr 1960
  • There are two collections of Pern stories; twenty-three novels, some written jointly or solely by Todd McCaffrey, the son of Anne Pulled from Wiki.

    What is - was. What was - is.
    Moderators: WhateleyAdminKristin DarkenE. E. NalleyelrodwNagrijMageOhkiAstrodragonNeoMagusWarrenMorpheusWasamonsleethrOtherEricBek D CorbinMaLAguASouffle GirlPhoenix SpiritusStarwolfDanZillaKatie_LynMaggie FinsonDrBenderJGBladedancerRenae_Whateley
    Powered by Kunena Forum