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Question Discussion: How to handle convergent ideas

8 years 10 months ago #1 by cprime
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    • This question was initially broached in the Micro scene discussion thread, but I felt it was worthy of a thread of it's own.

    elrodw wrote: I've been debating myself over something since the issue was raised in the canon writers' forums. We have a lot of talented fan-fic authors, and the creativity is really wonderful.

    But ...
    (and you knew there was a 'but' coming, didn't you?)

    When it comes to upcoming stories the community knows are going to be written - such as the Wondercute conclusion, or Danny getting to Whateley, I'm a little uncomfortable and for one reason: Some authors are, by random chance or logic or sheer blind luck, going to get elements of the plots right in their micro-scenes. The reason this bothers me is that a fan-fic author might feel that his or her ideas are being stolen without credit, or the readers might think the author isn't crediting the fan-fic author, and so on.

    I don't want to discourage micro-scenes or fan-fiction, but maybe we should discuss this and come up with some reasonable guidelines? Possibly refraining from fan-fic and microscenes on elements that are near-term upcoming or known to be in work? As one example, of the (hilarious) micro-scenes featuring Danny, some have actually touched on ideas that I'm working in for the 07/08 school year. Even if they're not ideas I'm going to use, they're entertaining as hell. At the same time, I want to avoid copying ideas or not giving credit when I get around to the Danny stories.

    Is it worth discussing, or am I worrying too much?


    A related question that I wish to submit for consideration is 'What should a fanfic author do if they have a story idea that they think might collide with what is in the canon pipeline?'. I will contribute my thoughts on both of these subjects shortly, once I have extracted the relevant comments from the micro scene discussion thread.
    Is your muse looking for inspiration? Send them to Parkerville! Welcome to Parkerville is the latest edition in my series of writing prompts.
    8 years 10 months ago #2 by cprime
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    • Domoviye wrote: I understand why you're worried and it is a concern, as I've had one fanfic closely compared to a Morpheus story, which I kiboshed as quickly as I could.
    I'm not sure of the best way to deal with it other than having a disclaimer on the fanfic section stating that writers don't use them for ideas, so if similar characters or situations appear it's purely by chance.

    Arcanist Lupus wrote: There is a slight problem there in that sometimes, the writers have used them for ideas. Danny being case in point. Although most of those ideas have come from Phoenix, who has since been upgraded to canon.

    Even so, even if the authors don't intentionally borrow ideas, it's easily possible for a fanfic version of a character to get lodged in an author's mind and start displacing the canon version. Which is part of the reason (besides legal reasons, and rule 34) that many professional authors make it a point to never read fanfiction. And while it's all in good fun to take over a character once in a while and make them the micro-scene butt monkey, I'd rather not derail any of the wonderful character arcs the authors have planned.

    mhalpern wrote: Well when we DO get things right, we consider that its own reward, at least I do, at the end of the day, those fanfictions are one step above theories, in my opinion anyways

    elrodw wrote: I'm not speaking for the non-existent cabal, by the way; just for me.

    Yes, Phoenix had some very good ideas for Danny, and yes, now that he's canon I'm comfortable using them. And if I use others' ideas, I intend to credit them. But it's sometimes awkward - that's all I'm saying.

    I'm as guilty of fan-fic on near-term events as anyone - y'all remember the microscenes I wrote about Ayla and Vox? Well, Diane wasn't writing, so there wasn't a lot of chance, but still it could have been awkward. But after being canonized (not the papal, "now you're a saint" way) I found out the status of story Ayla 9.5 and what happened and the future plans. If I'd have known that it was outlined, I probably wouldn't have written those little bits.

    I don't know - if I see a sequence of microscenes that are getting me concerned, is the right thing to send a PM to the author and politely ask them to hold those thoughts for a while because tehre's a story coming? Or just stop reading micro-scenes and fan-fic? I don't know - hence the discussion. What I DO know is that I don't want to spoil the fun and quash the creativity in the fan base, so .....

    Is your muse looking for inspiration? Send them to Parkerville! Welcome to Parkerville is the latest edition in my series of writing prompts.
    8 years 10 months ago #3 by cprime
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    • Domoviye wrote: Sending a message is a good idea. It lets the writer know an idea isn't being taken, could get him or her thinking on a new track, and could stop it before it gets potentially embarrassing.
    On the bad idea thread when I posted an idea that you were already developing and you asked me to lay off for a while, I was happy that great minds thought alike ;-). Then my muse decided to wait and see what you came up with and went a little nuts when it finally showed up in canon.

    And as a fanfic writer, sometimes it's frustrating coming up with a character or scenario that seems fun and original, only to discover that it's about to be made canon and by some strange luck they're very similar. (1 character of mine hit the recycle bin in a fit of fury before I'd even shown him to anyone, because he was almost identical to a newly introduced canon character right down to the hair colour. I have no idea how that happened.)
    If I'm just starting to post something and get a friendly note asking me to avoid something, it would save time and frustration.

    Arcanist Lupus wrote: Definitely agree with the "send a letter" solution. It would be a shame to have to stop reading the fan fics.

    Maybe come up with a bit of a form letter that covers the various problems a fan fic might encounter (paralleling a future story too much, diverging and distracting the author, secret reasons that can't be divulged in this letter, etc) to keep fanfic authors guessing at whether their story was too close to what was planned, or too far away. It probably differs from person to person, but I think that I'd rather not know what the future has in store for the characters I've been borrowing until the story can be told properly.

    Although it's definitely worth noting whether the problem resides with the characters being involved, or the type of scenario more generally, so that the fan can know what parts are okay to keep.

    Domoviye wrote:

    Arcanist Lupus wrote:

    elrodw wrote: Is it worth discussing, or am I worrying too much?


    It's certainly worth discussing. Unfortunately, I don't have much to say on the topic. :D

    EDIT: In a flurry of ninja'ing, I now do have a comment to make.

    Domoviye wrote: I understand why you're worried and it is a concern, as I've had one fanfic closely compared to a Morpheus story, which I kiboshed as quickly as I could.
    I'm not sure of the best way to deal with it other than having a disclaimer on the fanfic section stating that writers don't use them for ideas, so if similar characters or situations appear it's purely by chance.

    There is a slight problem there in that sometimes, the writers have used them for ideas. Danny being case in point. Although most of those ideas have come from Phoenix, who has since been upgraded to canon.

    Even so, even if the authors don't intentionally borrow ideas, it's easily possible for a fanfic version of a character to get lodged in an author's mind and start displacing the canon version. Which is part of the reason (besides legal reasons, and rule 34) that many professional authors make it a point to never read fanfiction. And while it's all in good fun to take over a character once in a while and make them the micro-scene butt monkey, I'd rather not derail any of the wonderful character arcs the authors have planned.

    In cases where ideas are intentionally used, I trust the writers here to give credit where credit is due, as has happened in the past.
    With authors making money on a project, avoiding fanfic is a good idea. But in this case there is no real money being made, and No one seems like the type to fly off the handle over something, so it's a more lenient situation, and I hope it continues.

    Phoenix Spiritus wrote: Since this is now public, and people may be curious, the specific scenes that caused the canon discussions were Valentine's "Star League Jrn. Aftermath" and cprime's Danny & Paige plot-lines.

    Both of these, while not exactly like future stories being written, had used enough similar elements to become uncomfortable.

    Just for the record, scenes discussed and planed out months ago for the 2008/2009 academic year are going to include plot points those scenes also have in them, I'm not going to spoil it by saying what ones or how they are planned to be used :evil:

    EDIT: Two quick notes:
    1) Its only the "close" scenes that are causing us issue as they are getting close to planned events, the long term scenes (e.g. Kayla's baby sister) are not really an issue as they are well beyond the Gen 1 time lines.

    2) Yes, I know, I did a Wondercute "reconciliation" FanFic too, in my defence I didn't release it until after I was assured by the writers that it was definitely not containing any plot "spoilers" :-p

    Phoenix Spiritus wrote:

    Arcanist Lupus wrote: There is a slight problem there in that sometimes, the writers have used them for ideas. Danny being case in point. Although most of those ideas have come from Phoenix, who has since been upgraded to canon.


    To clarify, I've all but been collaborating with Elrod on Danny at his invitation since way before I became officially canon. I have provided Elrod a smorgasbord of Danny ideas and scenes that he has been picking and choosing from as he desires. There is no "borrowing" or anything else underhand going on there.

    Valentine wrote: I was kind of afraid that that sort of thing would happen with that story (that is all there is to it). Mostly I've tried to stay away from near future events, like the beginning of Fall '07 and other stuff like that. The scene with SLJr. just really wanted out.

    I have no insight to what is coming in future stories, and allow the authors to use what what I write here (just like the alleged student that Hive found) freely, except for Jade destroying all humankind after graduation.

    I think that a PM would be appropriate, perhaps those of writing of Canon characters in the near future could a warning tag, so authors could skip them.

    Is your muse looking for inspiration? Send them to Parkerville! Welcome to Parkerville is the latest edition in my series of writing prompts.
    8 years 10 months ago #4 by Kristin Darken
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    • I know there's been some conversation about the issue already so I don't want to get too heavy into it or be too much of a jerk but I do want to throw my perspective on it into the mix. And I'll admit that it's a bit more hardcore than what's been discussed so far. Don't take it personally, I'm not accusing anyone specific or trying to shut down debate or discussion on the topic, but this is indeed how I feel on it.

    I love well written stories. I read a lot, to the extent that for most of my adult life, I've struggled with needing MORE things to read in my chosen areas of interest... libraries don't have enough. My paycheck cannot support buying enough. And so on. The availability of stories for free online is probably the only reason I've kept my sanity (what there is of it) the past ten or fifteen years. So, obviously, I am enthusiastically in support of people writing fan fiction about the WU.

    But as an author of the WU... I cannot read the fan fiction of the WU.

    This is mainly for two reasons. One is about a quality thing... there is a type of partial story in which a power set is developed and the means of introducing that power set is an origin story... such stories rarely have any plot or arc to them, they're not continued beyond arrival at whatever goal is set for it. They're basically character sheets created for a game campaign that is never played. These always strike me as a waste of creative effort - do the work, follow through, write the real story.

    The second is what this discussion is about. When a good story is in progress, there are many elements that set threads both forward and backward in the timeline... and if you are a decent reader, you can pick up on these things and predict what is likely to happen next. You have to have this to be immersed in a good story, if the author doesn't include the reader in expecting elements, it is impossible to draw them in and the reader experiences the story from the outside.

    Unfortunately, when the story is released in parts... this means that the author has set your up for knowing more than what they have currently shared. In a sense, this makes you WANT to speculate and anticipate what will happen. And other than surprise cliffhangers that could go a number of directions; with a bit of logic and care at reading what has happened; you SHOULD be able to describe what will happen next.

    As fan fiction authors, you should NEVER pursue those moments. That's not fan fiction. That's not derivative work. It's usurptsion of the authors work mid-stream. Remember, the author has developed all the things to that point... they have created and established the character traits, they have set the plot in motion, the action driving the scene forward, all the power balances, etc... it's like walking into a gym in which they have been setting up dominos all day and putting them in motion while they have a quick dinner before filming the sequence. You did NONE of the work to prepare this moment, and you are going to claim the scene that it produces? What's worse is if you then take pride in producing a scene similar to what the author does when they continue the work. As if your scene influenced the author... or that your creativity is right there with the author. Of COURSE is it, the author put you on that path with their previous work. You didn't influence them... they prepared you, made you ready to experience that scene.

    If you want to write a scene that is parallel to or an off shoot of a story, please wait until the story moves on. Don't write a 'fork' until the story has moved several scenes or even parts further along. Don't intersect a story with your own until the impact of that story would have passed. If the story stalls and the author is inactive? Ya, ok. They set it up but aren't actually working on finishing it... so we'll give you that. But not for active authors.

    Unlikely scenarios? That's a bit different. But the closer something is to what you think the author actually has planned; the less likely you should be writing it yourself. It's rude. And its illegal. Even in places that give freedom to write DERIVATIVE work. Because THAT is not derivative/fan fic.


    Again, this is how *I* feel about it, rational or otherwise... take that for what you will.
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    8 years 10 months ago #5 by elrodw
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    • Gonna poke my nose in again since I started this whole discussion.

    I would like to read more fan-fic, but alas, with work, family, and writing, there isn't enough time in the day. Beyond that, I don't want to be accused of stealing ideas. (Note that I DO read / review what people write if the ask me ahead of time and IF I have time.) In a previous life where I published research, I had my work "stolen" from me (it's a long story, I don't want to repeat it, it was highly unethical on their part, and it's in the past). It left a very bad taste in my mouth that makes me diligent about crediting people whose ideas I use.

    It can be very difficult for an author, six or eight or ten months hence, to sort out in the jumble that is the human mind and identify the source of ideas - is this one mine, or did I see it somewhere on a forum? Were they in parallel, or is mine derivative? If it is derivative of someone else's idea, I want to contact them and get permission to use it, and then acknowledge that in the story header. So for that reason, I tend to minimize my reading of fan-fic (like Kristin).

    Now, having said all of that, I don't want to discourage people's creativity. Perhaps it's best, as Kristin noted, to not try to 'finish' an ongoing, not-yet-completed story-line. Perhaps, though, contacting the author of the story line might be the appropriate path, because while you won't get a direct answer of where the story is going, you might get permission to use your ideas because they AREN'T the direction the primary author is going. If the story is highly improbable - like a farce or comedy - then the author won't mind because you're going a different direction.

    In short, I'd suggest you ask first. Example - cprime did some near-term things with Danny. He told me where he intended to go with it; it's not where I'm going, but there could be some thematic overlaps, so it's an iffy situation. So we'll work out how whether he proceeds or not. Other authors, same thing.
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    8 years 10 months ago #6 by Kristin Darken
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    • Yeah... the down side to having someone ask is that it intentionally puts you in that same situation that you get from reading the fan fic in the first place. If someone says "hey, I had this idea for where you were heading and I'd like to write a scene about the characters doing this..." and you're suddenly in the position of having to say "but that IS where the story was going, please don't..." That'd maybe be even worse than avoiding reading fan fic at all... constantly having to worry about someone sending me scenes on how THEY would write the next part of my stories? *shudders* From a copyright standpoint, its a nightmare.

    I just... think that there is more than enough room for people to be creative by writing the 'unlikely' or their own original ideas. There's no reason to be that on top of the current story that you have to write the next scene before the author has a chance to release the next part themselves. I know I have purposely considered changing plot lines based on speculation threads in the past. Both because I want people to be entertained by the story when it comes out... not bored because it is exactly like everyone speculated it would be... and because I don't want people to think I'm reading speculation threads and using those as the basis for my next ideas.

    This shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone... i've never been secretive of my feelings about how much the feedback/review threads have been overrun by speculation and how much I think that hurts the stories/community. I know most people don't share my feelings... but it shouldn't be too much to ask that people not go that step further to actually write scenes that could conceivably be the next thing the author releases. That's too far, even by generous standards.
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    8 years 10 months ago #7 by Kettlekorn
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    • Also? The sort of story that could slot in as the next update to an ongoing canon story is boring. Jokes about what is not likely to happen next are a lot more fun, both to write and to read.
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    8 years 10 months ago #8 by cprime
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    • As one of the writers who (inadvertently) helped spawn this discussion, I feel obliged to contribute a few thoughts on the subject.

    I would hate to discourage TIN(2)CC from enriching the Whateley universe with additional stories just because I had an idea that happened to be similar to something that they had in the works. While the idea of attribution of contributions by non-cabal writers has come up, I can see the potential for that seemingly simple concept being it's own thicket of thorns.

    Suppose for a moment that before Elrod introduced Danny, he wrote up a rough roadmap of where he wanted his latest chewtoy's adventures to go. Suppose also that this roadmap included a courtship between Danny and Paige. Time passes, Danny gets introduced, and he starts being dragged by his puppet strings down the road. The canon timeline reaches summer break, and Elrod starts working on fleshing out the roadmap for the coming school year. So far, this isn't a problem.

    Now, suppose one of the fan fiction writers has this off the wall idea of how the two characters might hit it off once they're both running around the same campus. They put some degree of thought into how it might work, and either share it with him directly or start posting their creative works. Now what? Elrod has already started writing his version of how Danny and Paige first meet (Who would have thought the elevator in the Crystal Hall was so prone to breaking down?), and he just got these similar but different ideas dumped on his head. It wouldn't be fair to give the fan fiction writer credit for the direction of the plot as it was already in the works. However, it also wouldn't be fair not to give them some credit, as they had a few ideas that could make for good comic relief (Sticking Danny and Paige on a boat and having Paige dump a few thousand volts of ambient charge into the lake to win the fishing competition between the two is just priceless!). Unfortunately, there's basically no middle ground between the options, and not using the ideas could result in a weaker story (not to mention the difficulty in keeping track of what those ideas were).

    For most of my 'big' writing projects, I've intentionally set them far outside the first and second generation campus boundaries (chronologically, if not geographically). That said, smaller writing projects can snowball if a hyperactive muse gets involved (Danny x Paige is a case in point). Like others have said, I will readily respect a request to hold off on further installments of a story. I would agree with Arcanist Lupus's suggestion to have a 'stock' form letter for asking people to hold off. I too would like to avoid getting hit with spoilers in the note, but some of that may be inevitable if an explanation of what/why is provided.

    In the case of Danny x Paige, I've got some plot points for additional segments that I've passed to Elrod, but I'm going to try to direct my muse to one of the other stories that I've been working on. Once the canon storyline gets past Elrod's plot points (I like to think it will be fairly obvious when that happens), I will probably pick it back up. Is this letting a perfectly good streak of creativity go to waste? Perhaps. But by the same token, I've got several other (non-WU stories) that have been in-flight for years, and I still have some idea of where I was going with them.
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    8 years 10 months ago #9 by Phoenix Spiritus
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    • Kettlekorn wrote: Also? The sort of story that could slot in as the next update to an ongoing canon story is boring.


    You know, I keep reading this and there's this little thing in my head that giggles and goes "tell us what you really think of the serial canon stories why don't you!" :-p
    8 years 10 months ago #10 by Kettlekorn
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    • Phoenix Spiritus wrote:

    Kettlekorn wrote: Also? The sort of story that could slot in as the next update to an ongoing canon story is boring.


    You know, I keep reading this and there's this little thing in my head that giggles and goes "tell us what you really think of the serial canon stories why don't you!" :-p


    Hahaha :lol:

    But what I mean is that when I read fan-fic, I'm expecting something new, not a preemptive rerun. The fact that a story released by a fan would register as rerun to me doesn't mean that the canon installment would be boring. The difference is that the fan-fic version is basically just overly detailed speculation, whereas the canon one is what actually happens. The things that actually happen are more interesting to me than the speculation. Unless it's wild speculation.
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    8 years 10 months ago #11 by Quorry
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    • When I first started coming up with ideas for stories (not fanfiction at that point) I deliberately tried as hard as possible to avoid making my story too similar to something that already existed by reading every single example on the tvtropes pages related to my idea. I'm not doing it anymore, mostly because I don't have so much time to burn on that website. But I think it was very useful in making my concept unique. And just recently I began trying to write it out.
    In my opinion, fan fiction with original characters or deviations from canon (like HPMoR) are much more interesting than ones that try to work too much with existing characters. Exceptions being a focus on a character that doesn't appear often in the main story. I agree that it isn't very nice to try writing a story that someone else is in the middle of writing It just causes a lot of unnecessary complications to the process.
    8 years 10 months ago - 8 years 10 months ago #12 by E M Pisek
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    • Think of this. When you develop a concept for a story, somewhere someone has already created that same concept. Swiss Family Robinson: Lost in Space. Star Trek: Wagon Train.

    You will inevitably run across someone's idea just as easily as taking a Mark Twain story and bringing it into the 20th or is that now the 21st Century.

    The point is just like Kristen's idea the concept was already there. The problem was that it fell close to another idea and movie.

    It's rare nowadays for someone to have a very unique idea for a story. It's all about how you dress it up and present it. We try to much at times to make our stories unique. Even all of the blockbuster movies its all rehash of various themes and for some its nothing but a Michael Bay of thin plot, large explosions and thin characters. You feel satisfied as you did when you ate the popcorn but there was nothing really in it and later you may hunger for something with more substance.

    Writers borrow from other writers all the time. It's just how someones ego gets in the way when they feel themselves being trampled on.

    Think of this.

    Boy loses parents, lives with wicked aunts, finds friends he can relate to even if they are different and then at the end save the day.

    How many times has that theme been used.
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    Last Edit: 8 years 10 months ago by E M Pisek.
    8 years 10 months ago #13 by Kristin Darken
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    • There may be no new stories... but its also a lie to say that you cannot be unique in telling one. People who believe that there are no new stories are making a point about fundamentals into a generalization. It's like saying we share 90% of our DNA with a banana. That doesn't mean that there isn't a completely valid reason to use bananas instead of human beings in your milkshake. Because there is. Sure, if you take away everything but the protagonist, antagonist and their reason for being opposed to one another... there's a limit to how many different stories you can tell.

    But the real world adds complexities. Shakespeare had fairies and spirits (Midsummer, Tempest). I have GEO characters and Tavi. Are they used for similar purposes? Absolutely.. but they're not the same. And the perception of my readers and that of Shakespeare's audiences will be similar or different as a result of how I use them... and their own understanding of those elements. I could tell the identical story, using the same scenes and names... but by creating those elements out of futuristic technology instead of abstract mythology, the audience will come away with something different.

    So when someone tells you there are no new stories to tell... agree with them, but then remind them that its not the story, its how you told it.
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