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Question On Warding...

8 years 8 months ago - 8 years 8 months ago #1 by Malady
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  • Kristin Darken wrote: As we move into year two of the G1 timeline, you'll see that Whateley hasn't been as secure as it thought itself to be. Lots of flaws in the warding and patrol system of the 'Dream Team'. There are some very secure locations in both the Magickal Arts building, the Psychic Arts building, the Library, and a few other locations... but most of the rest of campus? Covered better than the average home or public building? yes. But considering the opposition drawn to the school? Not nearly adequate.

    In G2 though? Different story entirely. Lessons were learned. The wards at the gates/wall layer are so powerful and run so deeply into interdimensional space that they're actually visible to baseline/normals under certain conditions. And then there's the Aversion field, each building is now warded independently, as are a number of rooms on each floor in each cottage. There are some places on campus in 2016 that are so well warded that stepping inside them suspends several laws of physics.


    How well covered is "the average home or public building"? ... The level of protection isn't zero, apparently? ... Some low-level protection for a home, by being a home, or having a loving family or something? ... Public buildings have their own wards as part of the building code??

    "There are some places on campus in 2016 that are so well warded that stepping inside them suspends several laws of physics." ... None of the laws that students need to live, I presume? Just basic ones like Gravity... Speed of light... Figuring out what laws are required to live is tricky... Or there's talismans or something to keep people alive in such environments... and those are places some students just can't normally go because they'd die from a lack of one of the laws of physics?? [And the deadliness of the warded location is a security factor, possibly. 'Kill everyone that isn't authorized to be here.']

    "The wards at the gates/wall layer are so powerful and run so deeply into interdimensional space that they're actually visible to baseline/normals under certain conditions" ... Halloween, midnight, sunrise/set, and other important times?
    Last Edit: 8 years 8 months ago by Malady.
    8 years 8 months ago #2 by E. E. Nalley
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  • Malady wrote: "The wards at the gates/wall layer are so powerful and run so deeply into interdimensional space that they're actually visible to baseline/normals under certain conditions" ... Halloween, midnight, sunrise/set, and other important times?


    Plot speeds and times

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    8 years 8 months ago #3 by Kristin Darken
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  • Malady wrote: How well covered is "the average home or public building"? ... The level of protection isn't zero, apparently? ... Some low-level protection for a home, by being a home, or having a loving family or something? ... Public buildings have their own wards as part of the building code??


    You've been reading too much paranormal urban romance...

    inherent protection of homes is an outshot of vampire lore and used as justification as to why vampires can't just kill anyone they want to by just going into their homes while they sleep. Jim Butcher added it to having an impact on wizards too. And a number of authors since have extended it to most magickal creatures... but that's contradictory to mythology and even fiction prior to the 1990's. Until recently, the only thing that required an 'invitation' was a vampire. Anything else, you had to take specific steps for... an iron horseshoe or nail for the Fae and demons, salt for the undead, and so on.

    Homes are not any more or less protected than rental houses... or public buildings. Most places have some fundamental isolation as an extension of the Law of Intent. You build a home or a courthouse or a library for a specific reason... usually either to protect the people within it from the natural conditions outside, to provide privacy for the actions within, or to isolate and guard possessions of some sort from those who might take them.

    Most public buildings are opened ceremonially. Often with prayer involved. People add locks and protective devices to increase the defended qualities of a place. Freemasons designed many of those public buildings with esoteric mathematics in mind... protecting them from the foundation up.

    All of that has an impact. Of course, regular traffic through a place wears on the protections. Places like museums and libraries often feel very open and inviting during the daylight hours and being in them at night often feels wrong... there's a reason for that.

    And, of course, in a world that acknowledges the presence of magick... most people will spend a few hundred dollars on basic defensive charms or a ward on their home. Some banks may even make it part of the sale/mortgage requirements to protect their investment. And of course, the modern corporate world has to protect from espionage at all levels... physical guards, cyber-tech, and also against Psi and Magick. There's big money in the WU security consulting business for defensive magick and warding.

    Fate guard you and grant you a Light to brighten your Way.
    8 years 8 months ago #4 by lighttech
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  • hummm food for thought on this!

    this would lead to a class jsut on this topic for any magic user "Warding 101" or above
    a job that one could do in the real world after WA

    interesting idea for a student story line for a summer job!

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    8 years 8 months ago #5 by Astrodragon
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  • There are probably quite a few 'grunt' jobs for mages who dont really have the skill or brains to work complicated stuff. Setting wards, re-energising stuff with essence, and so on.

    Just because someone can manipulate their essence doesnt mean that they automatically are skilled in using it

    I love watching their innocent little faces smiling happily as they trip gaily down the garden path, before finding the pit with the rusty spikes.
    8 years 8 months ago #6 by lighttech
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  • Astrodragon wrote: There are probably quite a few 'grunt' jobs for mages who dont really have the skill or brains to work complicated stuff. Setting wards, re-energising stuff with essence, and so on.

    Just because someone can manipulate their essence doesnt mean that they automatically are skilled in using it


    IMO setting wards on places like Facebook and microsoft I would not call that grunt work? earthshaking no..but I bet it pays!

    an old buddy of mine went from FBI to security for a top 10 company including CEO lvl protection and he pulls over 300k a year with 6 weeks off and retirement!

    like I said for a fan fic it might make a great summer job story!

    just saying its an idea!

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    8 years 8 months ago #7 by Sir Lee
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  • I think that magic users and entities are just rare enough that most people don't go to the trouble of protecting against them. Mundane threats still outnumber them like a thousand to one, so it makes much more sense to invest in a burglar alarm for your home than in magical anti-burglar charms.

    Now, if you are a big target, like a bank, that's a different game. You don't worry as much about the 99.9% of the threats that are just too pedestrian to be a problem even if they succeed (have you looked at the average take of most bank robberies? It's, like, beer money); they worry about the smart, organized, competent threats that could make BIG damage. And THAT includes magic users.

    To put it another way... the average homeowner does not worry about being burgled by Imp, because anybody at Imp's level wouldn't even look at their homes.

    What about low-level magic users? Aren't they more common? Well, the fact is that they can't do a lot, and frankly, they are often more of a threat to themselves (by doing stupid stuff to increase their powers) than to anybody around them.

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    8 years 8 months ago #8 by lighttech
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  • Sir Lee wrote:
    What about low-level magic users? Aren't they more common? Well, the fact is that they can't do a lot, and frankly, they are often more of a threat to themselves (by doing stupid stuff to increase their powers) than to anybody around them.


    There is another idea!

    a magic user cop like in the harry potter stories---lol

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    8 years 8 months ago #9 by Kristin Darken
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  • The important thing to remember is that the baseline mage thing takes decades to get to the point where you have Essence to burn on something other than advancing your studies and control. The 'average' person will never have a lit Well or have the mental training/discipline to keep it lit once it is lit.

    On the other hand, there are people roped in on things like the Witch Queen's pyramid scheme who are actually baseline mages (witches) using low Essence cost spells while mostly acting as part of the Witch Queen's own Essence generating structure. But even there, they only allow one coven in a given region. And the whole network would probably not have been established by a baseline Mage at the top because of the necessary initial Essence investment. Sure, the long term returns can be high... but generally only mutant mages have that sort of Essence on hand before they are nearing a century old.

    And yes... the place where that sort of security is important is banks, Fortune 500 companies, military assets, government centers, intelligence offices. And like cybertech security, warding isn't a one time installation. Regular oversight and upgrades are necessary.


    Warding isn't a 100 level class though, btw. Even the basics are not first year studies... for one thing, you need solid mental discipline to establish wards. And you also need available Essence and at least some skill in manipulating it in spellcraft. It's also wise to have some knowledge of the worlds outside the physical one because if you just ward the physical world, you leave lots of ways to slip by. More than likely its a 300 level class and is taught in alternating years, with most Magick and Psi Arts students taking it when it is offered either their Sophomore or Junior year.

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    8 years 8 months ago #10 by Astrodragon
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  • Kristin, I don't agree that warding wont be taught until Y3.
    Protection and warding is a fundamental part of magic training, and you need it for so many things.

    What I do see is it being taught in stages - so in Y1 you get basic warding and circles, and so on, Y2 better ones, Y3 you get the good ones - a continuing line of training. And some people are never going to master the complex ones.

    Protection is a vital part of magical training, after all. It just takes a lot of work and practice to get really good at it.

    I love watching their innocent little faces smiling happily as they trip gaily down the garden path, before finding the pit with the rusty spikes.
    8 years 8 months ago #11 by Kristin Darken
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  • As a formal specialized class? There aren't enough faculty to teach something that specialized every year Astro. Like everything else in every program, things rotate through. Some people will get lucky and get it their sophomore year because that is when it is taught, others will have to wait.

    But in all seriousness, you're missing the point if you think most first years in the Magick Arts program have sufficient Essence available to them to be doing much more than their Intro to Magick or Basic Spellcrafting assignments. Most of which are tailored projects designed to develop their mental discipline and Essence investment systems... so they can actually study advanced magick in their second or third year.

    It's not a question of how important it is... its a question of not being able to do it without it killing them because they are not capable of fueling that much magick yet.

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    8 years 8 months ago #12 by Astrodragon
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  • Because doing magic without precautions such as protection and circles is, well, suicidal.

    And while some students may be short on essence, a whole lot arent - look at the way magic is getting thrown around in canon.

    For example, we see people getting taught summoning 6 months in - are you really suggesting that they teach this BEFORE they teach the kids how to cast a circle to protect themselves if something goes wrong?

    I can see advanced stuff being left until later, but really, saying that basic protective magic will be ignored until Y3 just doesnt make sense.

    I love watching their innocent little faces smiling happily as they trip gaily down the garden path, before finding the pit with the rusty spikes.
    8 years 8 months ago - 8 years 8 months ago #13 by Kristin Darken
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  • No Master lets an Apprentice work inside a circle cast by that Apprentice until the Master is satisfied with the quality/safety of said circle. Yes, when the Apprentice is ready for doing something more risky than creating glowy balls of light; they will be taught to work in safety... but for most of their early program of study, that means working in one of the Magick Arts casting rooms. And no, that is generally NOT their first year as a student. Remember... most baseline mages don't even meet the mental discipline and skill requirements to earn a lit Well in their first year as an Apprentice.

    And Astro... think about it for a second. No single year of students is a large enough class to have dedicated sessions on every topic every year. I didn't say it wouldn't happen until year 3. I said it won't probably be a course offered every other year. Which means some students will take it their sophomore year. Some their junior year.

    And as to 'look at how magick is tossed around in canon' ... ok. I will. Oh look, these are Wiz 5, 6 ... and 7 mutants with ancient beings in their heads teaching them spellcraft that hasn't existed in the regular world for longer than recorded history. How likely do you think the school's program of study is designed around THOSE students? Please... you know better than that.

    Fate guard you and grant you a Light to brighten your Way.
    Last Edit: 8 years 8 months ago by Kristin Darken.
    8 years 8 months ago #14 by Valentine
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  • From the scenes with Molly and Sheba in the summoning class, part of that is the construction of protective summoning circles.

    And at least part of the theory behind protective circles in taught in one of the very intro classes because the TLW that finds Caitlin in Nephandis' Circle knows what it is, and that she doesn't enough to mess with it, and that she shouldn't.

    So it looks like while the Warding Class may only be taught every few years, specific classes cover the warding aspects required by their nature, and the basics are taught at an early stage.

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    8 years 8 months ago #15 by Kristin Darken
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  • Indeed. Let's use college computer science program of study as an example.

    You take Programming 101 your freshman year. It's probably Java or C++ ... and you cover compilers sufficiently to learn how to work with your IDE and get code compiled for projects.

    But you don't take Compiler Design your freshman year. Nor, likely, is compiler design offered every year. The faculty member that teaches it also teaches language theory and the UNIX classes. So the class is offered in the Fall semester of years ending in an even digit. If you happen to start as a freshman in 2016, it means that class is being taught your first Fall... and the next time it is offered is the Fall of your junior year.

    And the recommended prereqs for Compiler Design are Assembly Language and Programming Language Theory... the latter so you can understand how languages are built, parsed, etc. The former so you can program at the level needed to handle what the compiler does with your new language. Prior to taking these classes, you can probably understand concepts... but your ability to actually do the classwork just isn't there. So you aren't going to get to take it in the Fall of your freshman year... that means you wait until your Junior year.


    Does this mean you can't learn anything about language design and compilers before you take the advanced course in Compiler Design?

    No... don't be obtuse. But there is a WORLD of difference between drawing a circle with a 4 ft diameter and imbuing it with some Essence to create a defensive circle ... and creating a warded vault that will prevent access by world class mages. Or permanent casting chambers, etc.


    As to Molly... the Summoning class would be another of the advanced topics classes that you wouldn't generally take as a Freshman. However, given that Molly has the ability innately, she would need the more advanced class details far sooner than the average mage. So she'd be taking Summoning with (mostly) Juniors and possibly even a few Seniors who didn't take it when they were Sophomores when it was last offered. This would be really challenging for Molly as a Wiz 2 if she weren't capable of opening gates without tapping her Essence. But even if they're taught how to make circles and check one to be sure its solid... Summoning will be taught in a classroom with a permanent circle, far more powerful than most of the students will put together prior to leaving Whateley.

    But yes, basic circles... personal shields... plenty of things are taught in Intro/Principles. A lot of it from a purely orientation perspective... to reveal what is possible to mages, what to work towards, and why conservation of Essence is critical. After all, even at Wiz 2 or Wiz 3... mages won't be spending every day casting spells in class... they simply won't have the Essence for it. Mostly, they'll spend part of class moving Essence from their Well into a storage device or to power an investment system, as practice in manipulating Essence. This gives them practice in the same techniques for casting, but without burning Essence.

    Most of the rest of the time will be spent on foundation knowledge. A good half a semester of Intro would be spent on the Laws alone, and working out applications of where the Laws can apply and be used to enhance the use of one's casting.

    Fate guard you and grant you a Light to brighten your Way.
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