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Question On the Heritability of Mutant Powers...

8 years 7 months ago #1 by Malady
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    • Thought this up after some thought on Sterling possibly being a sibling of some kind to Dorothy Maxwell.

    ... Perhaps some powers' gene sequences, or something, are heritable, and some aren't? So some kids have powers similar to their parents, Like Phoenixfire, and Mr. Maxwell and Dorothy Maxwell, and possibly Sterling...

    The Stratosphere Siblings all have techy powers... And heritability is variable to allow variability in stories and stuff... Perhaps activation chances are heritable or something, like certain families have a high likelihood of mutation...

    And not many mutants have siblings or something, so the effect isn't extremely noticeable?
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    8 years 7 months ago #2 by Kristin Darken
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    • The MGC follows all the normal rules of genetics... bloodlines carrying it will combine in normal dominant / recessive gene combinations. However, that doesn't correlate to power types, just to the possibility that this individual 'could' manifest. There is zero evidence for any specific power trait to run in families as a result of genetics.

    However - there ARE incidents where a child acquires a power similar to that of their parent. But far more cases where they do not.

    One common theory would be that many power traits develop as an enforcement of certain strengths (or to compensate for certain weaknesses) of character and talent in the basic genetics and personality of the individual manifesting. If this theory of power 'selection' is indeed accurate to any extent, it would explain why a young mutant would manifest similar traits to their parents... children pattern themselves after their parents quite closely (within their natural capabilities) up until their teen years, when they begin to challenge and rebel as a means of establishing their own identity. In that case, the earlier in age the manifestation; the more likely a child could acquire he same power traits as their parents.

    Of course... that's just one theory.
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    8 years 7 months ago #3 by Valentine
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    • She-Beast and Techno Devil
    Hamper and Damper
    Loophole and Stronghold
    Yellow Queen and Little Bee
    The Stratosphere Siblings
    Charge and her sister
    Punch and Wing Nut
    Thunderbird and Jigsaw
    Pejuta and Danny
    Heckel and Jeckel

    I'm sure I missed a few, but considering that most of those are current (or future) students at Whateley it is quite a list.

    IIRC there are also several cousins attending Whateley besides Phase and Puppet (they don't count).

    While the data is really really limited, Hamper and Damper, and Heckel and Jeckel, and the twin Stratosphere boys all have the same powers as their identical twin. So that seems to be genetic.
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    8 years 7 months ago #4 by Kristin Darken
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    • Uh... that's not genetic evidence. You could just as easily guess that a specific power trait is based on faulty/substituted inoculations that were delivered to hospitals. The twins both got the same power because they got the same doses from the same lot of meds. Or that it had to do with certain types of food which, because they were being fed by the same mother, they happened to both get.

    Also half your anecdotal examples have power sets NOTHING like their sibling while half are... so... which side are you arguing. That it IS or ISN'T?
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    8 years 7 months ago #5 by FiddlerFox
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    • I think the big thing for us to remember is according to all the information that is published, the people of the setting DO NOT KNOW what the answer is. There are a lot of theories, but all of them are just that: theories. Ultimately, I think the answer is this:

    What makes a good story?

    Probability says that there is always a chance that something will happen or go down a certain way. It might be 0.000000000000000000000000000000001 but there's still a 1 in that number. In my writing, I decided that genetics determined that there were families of supers (which is kind of demonstrated by other canon pieces) as well as individuals, and that those families may have similarities. But you can get good stories there. Kid that has similar powers as a parent and is picking up a mantle, perhaps of a parent that is slain or lost? Good story potential. Black sheep kid, in that they did NOT get the same as everyone else in their family? Good story potential. How about the one mutant in the family of mutant haters? Ayla shows us good story potential. How about the reverse in that you get one the one non-mutant norm in a family of supers? Personally I think that'd be a great idea... I may have to design a character to put into my existing story ideas just to run with it.

    The canon crew have been very good about putting out a lot of theories, because they're all given from characters-perspective. They haven't shown us the actual answer, but then again, does there need to be one? Regardless of what the actual answer is, every example we're shown could be explained using odds and probability given the BILLIONS of people on the planet.

    So it comes down to what do you need to tell your tale, and what does your tale want to tell.

    Err... guess I kinda got on a soap box there.. lemme step off it now.. um.. sorry...
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    8 years 7 months ago #6 by Valentine
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    • Kristin Darken wrote: Uh... that's not genetic evidence. You could just as easily guess that a specific power trait is based on faulty/substituted inoculations that were delivered to hospitals. The twins both got the same power because they got the same doses from the same lot of meds. Or that it had to do with certain types of food which, because they were being fed by the same mother, they happened to both get.

    Also half your anecdotal examples have power sets NOTHING like their sibling while half are... so... which side are you arguing. That it IS or ISN'T?


    That for the Identical Twin Sets there is some evidence that it may be genetic.

    Of the siblings, we can toss out She-Beast and Techno Devil, and Pejuta and Danny because we know (or are at least fairly certain) there was external tampering to their manifestations, but the others seem fairly random as to what the powers are.

    PS: I don't think those examples are "anecdotal," that all those characters are siblings is fact, and what their powers are is fact. The evidence is highly incomplete, but not anecdotal.
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    8 years 7 months ago #7 by Kristin Darken
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    • It has to be anecdotal Valentine... because unless we tell you the result of a genetics test on them, there's no way you can guarantee that genetics is the cause. I could (I won't because it would take hours, but I could) come up with a thousand reasons a set of twins would end up with the same powers as say their father. Would it seem like it was inherited? Sure. But you cannot possibly know for certain. And for every child of a paranormal who DOES have a power similar to their parent in the WU, there is at least one (if not dozens) of cases where the power of the child is NOT the same as the parent. Does that mean its NOT genetic? No.

    Is the potential for being a mutant genetic (inherited)? Yes.

    Are power traits genetic (inherited)? No.

    How can we be certain one way or another? The fact that most power traits have an extradimensional component or create a BIT that supercedes (has priority over) physical genetics is the number one reason.... genetics are only part of the expression of physical nature for mutants. Now... is that extradimensional component somehow inheritable as a sort of 'super-DNA' version of genetics? That would have to be tested... and it would take a pretty advanced gadgeteer to do so (especially given that knowing the answers would probably be the key to unlocking how to identify who will manifest, what they'll manifest as, who are active mutants and what their traits are, and put people on the road to viable manipulation of abilities).

    It's certainly not something that's doable with any level of certainty in the current story timelines.
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    8 years 7 months ago #8 by Phoenix Spiritus
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    • Valentine wrote: Of the siblings, we can toss out She-Beast and Techno Devil, and Pejuta and Danny ...


    Actually, Kayda and Danny are evidence for not against. They both have the same major power, Strong Avatar Hollows, with 'minor' other talents (Shaman Magic in Kayda's case, shapeshifting in Danny's), then their different bonded spirits bring in the majority of their 'uniquenesses'.

    Of course, both Kayda and Danny are of Native American decent, where both being Avatars and Shaman is to a certain extent passed down in bloodlines, so the degree to which this is 'mutation' and how relatable this is to other mutants is debatable.
    8 years 7 months ago #9 by Valentine
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    • Phoenix Spiritus wrote:

    Valentine wrote: Of the siblings, we can toss out She-Beast and Techno Devil, and Pejuta and Danny ...


    Actually, Kayda and Danny are evidence for not against. They both have the same major power, Strong Avatar Hollows, with 'minor' other talents (Shaman Magic in Kayda's case, shapeshifting in Danny's), then their different bonded spirits bring in the majority of their 'uniquenesses'.

    Of course, both Kayda and Danny are of Native American decent, where both being Avatars and Shaman is to a certain extent passed down in bloodlines, so the degree to which this is 'mutation' and how relatable this is to other mutants is debatable.


    We also know that both were tampered with when they manifested. How much they were tampered with is the question.
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    8 years 7 months ago - 8 years 7 months ago #10 by Phoenix Spiritus
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    • Valentine wrote:

    Phoenix Spiritus wrote:

    Valentine wrote: Of the siblings, we can toss out She-Beast and Techno Devil, and Pejuta and Danny ...


    Actually, Kayda and Danny are evidence for not against. They both have the same major power, Strong Avatar Hollows, with 'minor' other talents (Shaman Magic in Kayda's case, shapeshifting in Danny's), then their different bonded spirits bring in the majority of their 'uniquenesses'.

    Of course, both Kayda and Danny are of Native American decent, where both being Avatars and Shaman is to a certain extent passed down in bloodlines, so the degree to which this is 'mutation' and how relatable this is to other mutants is debatable.


    We also know that both were tampered with when they manifested. How much they were tampered with is the question.


    True, but the point is they where strong Avatars first, the tampering came second because they are both strong Avatars.

    There is also other evidence Avatars "run in the Family", it was supposed to be Kayla's daughter being Ptesanwi, Wakan Tanka jumped the gun and made Kayda Ptesanwi when she realised that Kayda had the required abilities already.
    Last Edit: 8 years 7 months ago by Phoenix Spiritus.
    8 years 7 months ago #11 by Valentine
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    • Phoenix Spiritus wrote:

    Valentine wrote:

    Phoenix Spiritus wrote:

    Valentine wrote: Of the siblings, we can toss out She-Beast and Techno Devil, and Pejuta and Danny ...


    Actually, Kayda and Danny are evidence for not against. They both have the same major power, Strong Avatar Hollows, with 'minor' other talents (Shaman Magic in Kayda's case, shapeshifting in Danny's), then their different bonded spirits bring in the majority of their 'uniquenesses'.

    Of course, both Kayda and Danny are of Native American decent, where both being Avatars and Shaman is to a certain extent passed down in bloodlines, so the degree to which this is 'mutation' and how relatable this is to other mutants is debatable.


    We also know that both were tampered with when they manifested. How much they were tampered with is the question.


    True, but the point is they where strong Avatars first, the tampering came second because they are both strong Avatars.

    There is also other evidence Avatars "run in the Family", it was supposed to be Kayla's daughter being Ptesanwi, Wakan Tanka jumped the gun and made Kayda Ptesanwi when she realised that Kayda had the required abilities already.


    Nope we don't know Kayda was an Avatar, It's entirely possible that Wakan Tanka used the Spell to make her an Avatar, it's entirely possible that it was done to Danny too.

    We know that Kodiak, Grizzly and Wakan Tanka have repeatedly LIED about what they have done and what they are doing.
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    8 years 7 months ago - 8 years 7 months ago #12 by Kristin Darken
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    • Note: Kayda's spell does not create an Avatar. Kayda's spell makes it possible for someone to bond with a spirit. It does not create a Hallow of the same level of safety inherent to the nature of an Avatar mutant nor does that individual generate ANY energy for the spirit to be sustained. The spirit is sustained entirely by Essence from the spell and the shaman who cast it and the spirit is vulnerable in certain esoteric/mystical ways that a spirit bonded with an Avatar would not be. While we haven't really talked about it, the shamanic spell would have been developed to provide a specific advantage to certain key leaders of a tribe... it simply cannot be sustained by a traditional shaman without enormous effort because of the ongoing Essence requirements.

    Kayda, by nature of having more than a normal baseline mage's available Essence may be able to sustain the bond in several people instead of the one or two a traditional shaman might (their greatest warrior and wisest Elder/leader/chief, most likely, depending on if they were at war or peace). Those spirits, with the limits on their power source, would also be hesitant to grant more than minor subtle abilities to their hosts... or risk depleting themselves and being destroyed. So far, I think we've only actually seen Kayda use this spell in its traditional form once; to bond Grizzly and Lanie. The other times she's used it more to help make the bond possible with the normal Avatar Hallow already existing - those Avatars had a Hallow and generate sufficient energy for their spirits. They just needed the Hallow adjusted to make a comfortable bond possible. Most of the Essence use would be up front there... and would probably not introduce much more risk to the spirit or host. In a sense it would be like adding a deck extension to someone's porch. As opposed to the situation with Lanie, where the house just had a driveway so they built in an entire garage.

    If Kayda does too many of these, she could be in a situation where she has so much Essence caught up in commitments to spirits that she has none for casting magick of her own. Whether she realizes this yet... is hard to say. So far, she's seemed to feel it is more important to give these people in her life spirit advisors... but that could come back to haunt her (in a number of ways).
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    Last Edit: 8 years 7 months ago by Kristin Darken.
    8 years 7 months ago #13 by Valentine
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    • Kristin Darken wrote: Note: Kayda's spell does not create an Avatar. Kayda's spell makes it possible for someone to bond with a spirit. It does not create a Hallow of the same level of safety inherent to the nature of an Avatar mutant nor does that individual generate ANY energy for the spirit to be sustained. The spirit is sustained entirely by Essence from the spell and the shaman who cast it and the spirit is vulnerable in certain esoteric/mystical ways that a spirit bonded with an Avatar would not be. While we haven't really talked about it, the shamanic spell would have been developed to provide a specific advantage to certain key leaders of a tribe... it simply cannot be sustained by a traditional shaman without enormous effort because of the ongoing Essence requirements.

    Kayda, by nature of having more than a normal baseline mage's available Essence may be able to sustain the bond in several people instead of the one or two a traditional shaman might (their greatest warrior and wisest Elder/leader/chief, most likely, depending on if they were at war or peace). Those spirits, with the limits on their power source, would also be hesitant to grant more than minor subtle abilities to their hosts... or risk depleting themselves and being destroyed. So far, I think we've only actually seen Kayda use this spell in its traditional form once; to bond Grizzly and Lanie. The other times she's used it more to help make the bond possible with the normal Avatar Hallow already existing - those Avatars had a Hallow and generate sufficient energy for their spirits. They just needed the Hallow adjusted to make a comfortable bond possible. Most of the Essence use would be up front there... and would probably not introduce much more risk to the spirit or host. In a sense it would be like adding a deck extension to someone's porch. As opposed to the situation with Lanie, where the house just had a driveway so they built in an entire garage.

    If Kayda does too many of these, she could be in a situation where she has so much Essence caught up in commitments to spirits that she has none for casting magick of her own. Whether she realizes this yet... is hard to say. So far, she's seemed to feel it is more important to give these people in her life spirit advisors... but that could come back to haunt her (in a number of ways).


    *Nods*

    And how much Essence does Wakan Tanka have access to?

    And how much change can a God do to a person? Sara seemed capable of changing Jade into a girl, albeit with severe modifications to her "self," Wakan Tanka has a lot more experience with being a God than Sara does and Wakan Tanka didn't have any problems changing Kayda into a girl.

    I'm sure that the Canon Authors, or at least Elrod knows how much change there was to Kayda, so the rest of us can only speculate, the same as to what Dr. Dad did to his kids, or Nimbus to Phase and Puppet, or Gizmatic to Jobe (I think Jobe is a clone of Joe), or Devilmaster to Dragonrider, or any other of the Seeds parents.
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    8 years 7 months ago #14 by Astrodragon
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    • But there is the big issue of how much Essence does a god/demon/whatever have on this plane?

    After all, if a demon had access to all its power, the moment you summon one it could simply blow away any protection and get free. So it seems likely they only have a portion available, or are limited to what the avatar can do, or both.
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    8 years 7 months ago #15 by elrodw
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    • Phoenix Spiritus wrote:

    Valentine wrote:

    Phoenix Spiritus wrote:

    Valentine wrote: Of the siblings, we can toss out She-Beast and Techno Devil, and Pejuta and Danny ...


    Actually, Kayda and Danny are evidence for not against. They both have the same major power, Strong Avatar Hollows, with 'minor' other talents (Shaman Magic in Kayda's case, shapeshifting in Danny's), then their different bonded spirits bring in the majority of their 'uniquenesses'.

    Of course, both Kayda and Danny are of Native American decent, where both being Avatars and Shaman is to a certain extent passed down in bloodlines, so the degree to which this is 'mutation' and how relatable this is to other mutants is debatable.


    We also know that both were tampered with when they manifested. How much they were tampered with is the question.


    True, but the point is they where strong Avatars first, the tampering came second because they are both strong Avatars.

    There is also other evidence Avatars "run in the Family", it was supposed to be Kayla's daughter being Ptesanwi, Wakan Tanka jumped the gun and made Kayda Ptesanwi when she realised that Kayda had the required abilities already.


    What he said.
    They were avatars - and a very rare circumstance where two avatars came from the same family. The spirits they got did the 'mucking about' with their bodies, not causing them to BE avatars.

    Loophole and Strongarm, Charge and her sister Amelie, and others are examples of MGC being genetic, but the derived power NOT being genetic. Since one parent had the MGC, then it's pretty conclusive that THAT parent's MGC genes were passed on, but the children who received that particular set of genetic information from the 'donor' parent came out with different power sets. So, as Kristin said, the power set appears (to the best information of Whateley and other mutant researchers) to NOT be genetically coded, but is a function of idiosyncracies of manifestation. It's not a given that identical twins would have the same power set.
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