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8 years 4 months ago #1 by Queshire

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So we know that Devisors do SCIENCE!!! not science, but is there any reason they need to go the mad scientist route with their creations? Since they're basically imposing their own laws instead of that of the world could you have a Devisor that does to enchanting objects what more classic ones do to technology? One that does their thing via abstract paintings or music? Could a devisor focused on psychology develop a theory that gives them a hypnotic voice?

8 years 4 months ago #2 by Valentine

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It's possible that Ms. Rogers is a low lever Devisor, or whomever built her measuring devise and other equipment. Or that stuff could be a gadget or even magic.

Goodvibes does sound stuff.

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8 years 4 months ago #3 by Kristin Darken

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Queshire wrote: Could a devisor focused on psychology develop a theory that gives them a hypnotic voice?

No, but said devisor 'could' develop a dangling shiny object that when swung drops even the most resistant individual into a trance state.

The key difference is, what you are describing is more or less a warper... someone with an ability to, at will, alter some aspect of the nature of reality... recoding the laws of physics... reality hacking... etc. For the warper, it is their will and presence that changes things... and typically, loss of focus of that will or their absence results in it reverting to normal.

For a devisor, the effect is placed into a technological component that may then be separated from the source of the power. Not always in a stable fashion, but at least separate from the focused will of the mutant.

The parallel to this is the knowledge/skill acquisition of the Paragon... which allows the mutant with that power to operate / build pretty much anything their power is able to flare/trigger on... with the Gadgeteer, who can take knowledge and skill of something out of their normal knowledge base, build a technological gadget with it, which can then be used by anyone able to work out its use/mechanisms.

The Artificer is, to some extent, another parallel with regards to magickal/enchanted items... but being an artificer is not a standard mutant trait and no where near as commonplace as the other two.

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8 years 4 months ago #4 by Astrodragon

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The trouble with Whateley devisors is that they are far too imaginative.

THIS is what a proper devisor should be working on...

www.theregister.co.uk/2016/12/16/meat_pies_in_spaaaaaaaaaaaace/

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8 years 4 months ago #5 by Arcanist Lupus

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I've had an idea bouncing around for a student who could warp reality using music. By tuning their violin (and later other instruments) to a "perfect frequency" that only they can hear, they can then achieve a variety of effects by playing different melodies. Effectiveness of results varies based on skill in playing, emotional connection of the musician, and how perfectly the instrument is tuned. Other musicians could use already tuned instruments to generate effects, but they fall out of tune quickly when someone else is playing.

Would this be a reasonable description of a musical devisor?

Also, I worry a bit that I've given them a basically unlimited range of effects, limited only by creativity and musical skill, and I don't have a good feel for how flexible Devisor and Warper effects can be in the WU.

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8 years 4 months ago #6 by GrimGrendel

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Arcanist Lupus wrote: Also, I worry a bit that I've given them a basically unlimited range of effects, limited only by creativity and musical skill, and I don't have a good feel for how flexible Devisor and Warper effects can be in the WU.

Well, the wiki pretty much says that they can do anything if they put their mind to it

An angry devisor can pull off almost anything, especially aimed at the target of her anger. But that doesn’t mean that it will do the same thing when used on someone in cold blood.

From your description, I'd put that in the same category as a siren effect, but with a devisor origin to the power instead of being an energizer like Vox. Add to that that the devisor would have to fine tune his instrument constantly, which would be slower than vocal acrobatics, and I could see it turn into an interesting yet fair power.

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8 years 4 months ago #7 by Kristin Darken

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Arcanist Lupus wrote: I've had an idea bouncing around for a student who could warp reality using music. By tuning their violin (and later other instruments) to a "perfect frequency" that only they can hear, they can then achieve a variety of effects by playing different melodies. Effectiveness of results varies based on skill in playing, emotional connection of the musician, and how perfectly the instrument is tuned. Other musicians could use already tuned instruments to generate effects, but they fall out of tune quickly when someone else is playing.

Would this be a reasonable description of a musical devisor?

Also, I worry a bit that I've given them a basically unlimited range of effects, limited only by creativity and musical skill, and I don't have a good feel for how flexible Devisor and Warper effects can be in the WU.

Well, again... as the impact is caused by the mutant not by the instrument, this is more likely a warper effect. The effect would have to be a result of the INSTRUMENT that was created and is constantly being tuned and finely played for it to have been a devisor item.

It's also beyond the power scope of the WU.. most 'reality' warping is unless it is very clearly limited in scope. Consider, after all, that the standard warper is basically limited to one law of physics that they are able to manipulate and in a way that is usually limited in range (ie a gravity warper is generally capable of applying a limited numeric multiplier to the gravitational constant for a small volume of space. A size warper can alter the effective volume a given mass-density requires of a base mass structure usually the size of a human body. Similarly density warpers manipulate the same values so that the density of the mass effected changes, instead of volume.

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8 years 4 months ago #8 by Queshire

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Another question about Devisors, would devises that interact with magic be harder to make than normal devises? For example, creating a devise to "capture" a magic missile spell shot at them by a mage they're fighting or basically making a pokeball to capture spirits based off studying avatars.

8 years 4 months ago #9 by Valentine

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Queshire wrote: Another question about Devisors, would devises that interact with magic be harder to make than normal devises? For example, creating a devise to "capture" a magic missile spell shot at them by a mage they're fighting or basically making a pokeball to capture spirits based off studying avatars.

I don't think they ever succeeded, but the Bad Seeds built a device to capture one of Seraphim's "Angels." See Have Yourself and Evil Little Christmas.

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8 years 4 months ago #10 by Malady

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And Nephandus sorta managed to use one to power stuff.

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8 years 4 months ago #11 by Jarjaross

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Hmmm

What if a devisor could write music to achieve those affects? Like particular instruments resonate at this frequency psuedo-science.

Maybe not warp reality but things like affecting emotions (+ mind control), making chemical reactions more likely, and lowering stuctural integrity are all thing that sounds (and therefore music) have been said (and then proven not [excluding affect emotion]) to do. So why couldn't a devisor write a music piece that (assuming he conducts or plays it) could alter reality to small degree.

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8 years 4 months ago #12 by Domoviye

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So in Whateley Verse, the Blue Man Group is actually a group of devisors and their weird instruments are devises?
I like it.

8 years 4 months ago #13 by Queshire

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Jarjaross wrote: What if a devisor could write music to achieve those affects? Like particular instruments resonate at this frequency psuedo-science.

From the response to my first post, as far as I understand it the instrument that plays the music has to have been built / modified into a devise. Devising the sheet music alone wouldn't be enough. So I guess there needs to be a physical component?

8 years 4 months ago #14 by Kristin Darken

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I'm not sure why there's a push to make Devisor the trait of choice for all these things... seems like a lot of rationalization needed to make it work when there are far simpler explanations possible.

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8 years 4 months ago #15 by Jarjaross

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Kristin Darken wrote: I'm not sure why there's a push to make Devisor the trait of choice for all these things... seems like a lot of rationalization needed to make it work when there are far simpler explanations possible.

Well yes, there are tons of easier explanations.

But none of them have the fun of a Devisor composer/conducter directing his full robot orchestra to make laughing gas appear from the random collisions of nitrogen atoms in the air. Or creating safe cool fires of varying colours as visual accompaniment to the song. Or a supervillain whose massive mind control plan revolves around a classical music concert in the sky.

These would never fly in Whateley as we have described (a music based devisor) but you ust admit it is fun coming up with things that could be done with it.

8 years 4 months ago #16 by NJM1564

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Jarjaross wrote: Hmmm

What if a devisor could write music to achieve those affects? Like particular instruments resonate at this frequency psuedo-science.

Maybe not warp reality but things like affecting emotions (+ mind control), making chemical reactions more likely, and lowering stuctural integrity are all thing that sounds (and therefore music) have been said (and then proven not [excluding affect emotion]) to do. So why couldn't a devisor write a music piece that (assuming he conducts or plays it) could alter reality to small degree.

I believe there is supposed to already be a precedence for this. Isn't Good and Evil online supposed to be made by a devicer. Essentially a code/program based device itself.
There wouldn't be much difference between sheet music and computer code.
And the anime Read or Die had music that could literally drive you insane. And in a class X populated universe wouldn't there be books written that could do the same.

8 years 4 months ago #17 by Malady

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NJM1564 wrote: I believe there is supposed to already be a precedence for this. Isn't Good and Evil online supposed to be made by a devicer. Essentially a code/program based device itself.

Devisor as origin is speculation, and if you've caught up to Whisper, note what they find out from analyzing the mouse.

Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ]

NJM1564 wrote: There wouldn't be much difference between sheet music and computer code.

I wonder what Goodvibes has to say about that...

NJM1564 wrote: And the anime Read or Die had music that could literally drive you insane.

Right... The Suicide Symphony or something...

NJM1564 wrote: And in a class X populated universe wouldn't there be books written that could do the same.

I forget if there is... Ah. Sara's Math Test Thing. That drove a science teacher insane. Not sure if Necronomicon is insanifying by its very presence or not...

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8 years 4 months ago - 8 years 4 months ago #18 by Kettlekorn

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A carpenter can use a hammer to drive nails into wood. That process can be called carpentry. The carpenter might choose to use his hammer in alternative ways, such as reshaping metal or cracking an enemy's skull, but those processes are not called carpentry.

A devisor uses their reality warping abilities to create devises. If a devisor is using reality warping abilities to do something other than create devises, then that person is not devising. They are warping, and would be classified as a warper.

And note that mutant powers are results of physical nature, not learned skills. A carpenter might be able to study and practice and develop the skills to become a blacksmith, but a devisor cannot learn to become a gravity warper any more than a hammer can learn how to be pliers. They'd have to be born a warper and devisor in the first place. Perhaps the two traits share some internal structures, but they still have their respective specialized adaptations that are required to actually do anything.

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8 years 3 months ago #19 by Queshire

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Kristin Darken wrote: I'm not sure why there's a push to make Devisor the trait of choice for all these things... seems like a lot of rationalization needed to make it work when there are far simpler explanations possible.

I can only speak for myself, but I don't really think of it as a push? I'm an amateur and for me devising is in a lor of ways convenient. Since the nature of devising is using your own rules instead of reality it's reassuring since you don't have to worry about possibly getting something wrong, such as you might with a mage character and the established rules of magic or a gadgeteer and the laws of physics.

It's also convenient to basically level up a character since you can always have them make a new devise when it's harder to justify something like that for some other powers.

Finally, more specifically for non-tech devises, I would say that with the superhero genre as a whole, there's a strong value for uniqueness and with fanfic writers it's even worse. Limiting devises to tech based limits the the character concepts and the basic definition we have to work with; "I reject your reality and substitute my own" in order to make something doesn't really support it since there's a lot that can fall under the category of making something.

I mean, these aren't good excuses, but I think they're understandably, no?

8 years 3 months ago #20 by GrimGrendel

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Are devisors able to replicate each other's work? If two devisors specializes in the same thing, like vehicles or plasma weapons, can they trade designs or must each of them come up with their own take on one particular invention? In many stories, devisors seem to be able to grasp difficult concepts that went into making some particular devise that is not their own, which confuses me a little since I thought they each imposed their own personal rules on their devises.

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8 years 3 months ago #21 by Kristin Darken

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Generally, yes. And in an 'anything goes' universe such as DC Comics, the ability to literally warp reality into anything you want it to be... to have a man able to lift a battleship out of the water without its keel cracking... to be able to fly into a star... and so on, is a part of that universe's accepted mechanics. But that is not the case with the Whateley Universe. While we don't always manage to stay within certain parameters... the goal is a power structure that is far more limited, where we can mostly see rational extensions of human ability through evolutionary growth. Most of the mutant traits have a strong foundation in psionic ability, as a control mechanism if not an outright exercise in mental power. The remainder are tied to purely physical evolution or the existence of magick and the spirit realms.

But none of them have the fun of a Devisor composer/conducter directing his full robot orchestra to make laughing gas appear from the random collisions of nitrogen atoms in the air. Or creating safe cool fires of varying colours as visual accompaniment to the song. Or a supervillain whose massive mind control plan revolves around a classical music concert in the sky.

And there is nothing stopping you from having a devisor who creates robot musicians who can make laughing gas appear from whatever mechanism you want. To build a projection system into his baton that generates your cold fire. Or to build an amplification system that allows music to be used for mind control.

But it is the robots. The baton. The amplifiers. - those are the devises. They are objects designed/built be a Devisor ... they may on occasion be used by someone who is not the devisor... and even work right. Sometimes not. Sometimes they may explode. And, should someone else try to take them apart and replicate them, the copies won't work... because the technology used to build them is not ALL that went into making them work.

Finally, more specifically for non-tech devises, I would say that with the superhero genre as a whole, there's a strong value for uniqueness and with fanfic writers it's even worse. Limiting devises to tech based limits the the character concepts and the basic definition we have to work with

And in a discussion specifically about fan fiction, I would preface comments like these with "but its fan fiction and you aren't locked into following the rules, do what you want"... but we aren't. This is a concept discussion thread about the universe... and that means, I'm explaining the difference in the mechanics of the canon universe. Kettlekorn puts it well in his post above...

Nothing in the concepts that you're talking about are impossible, within the WU mechanics anyway... you just insist on calling it a Devisor instead of a Warper. Or another Psi trait. Or attributing the end result to the mutant instead of to the objects the mutant has created. This is like growing up being told all those flying yellow and black bugs are bumblebees. And then, when you're older someone says... oh... no... only the furry fat ones are actually bumble bees. Those other ones are wasps. It doesn't change what a bumble bee or a wasp is... it just puts you in a position of needing to change the word you are using to describe them. While it may be a hassle for you to reassociate to the proper term, it may also help in the long term... because bees and wasps need to be handled differently for stings.

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8 years 3 months ago #22 by Queshire

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GrimGrendel wrote: Are devisors able to replicate each other's work? If two devisors specializes in the same thing, like vehicles or plasma weapons, can they trade designs or must each of them come up with their own take on one particular invention? In many stories, devisors seem to be able to grasp difficult concepts that went into making some particular devise that is not their own, which confuses me a little since I thought they each imposed their own personal rules on their devises.

Maybe they reinterpret it as their system? “Ah, but look, if you turn it upside down and squint you’ll see that Red Death’s not actually using some red matter energy, but just a slice of my prismatic rainbow pew pew energy. So all I need to do is add some green and his death machine should just shut down.”

8 years 3 months ago #23 by Kristin Darken

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GrimGrendel wrote: Are devisors able to replicate each other's work? If two devisors specializes in the same thing, like vehicles or plasma weapons, can they trade designs or must each of them come up with their own take on one particular invention? In many stories, devisors seem to be able to grasp difficult concepts that went into making some particular devise that is not their own, which confuses me a little since I thought they each imposed their own personal rules on their devises.

Replicate? Not exactly no. Example:

Jack Frost builds a cold ray. Jack obviously has a traditional frost based holiday theme going on, but his ray gun is fairly modern in appearance instead of having any real unusual structure to it. Jack uses vacuum technology to generate most of his cold effects... after all, nothing's colder than the cold vacuum in space. He heard that in a movie somewhere and it stuck. So the gun itself is mostly a very small amount of a compressed liquid,which passes through a focusing chamber that is surrounded by hard vacuum generated by micro-singularities. The liquid, a special chemical Jack created breaks down when in contact with Carbon Dioxide but when it does, it sparks an energy discharge in a lightning bolt shaped path between the gun and any physical object the liquid has reached... this discharge creates a patch through which heat flows back to the gun and out into the vacuum of space.

A second devisor, the Cool Guy, wants to add a cold ray to his arsenal. He gets hold of Jack Frost's gun through some shenanigans. It works for him...sort of... but he knows that Jack is going to come after him to get it back. So he studies it to create his own. He decides that the microsingularities are great. Not only is the vacuum they create a useful heat sink, but they can also be used as an alternative power source and possibly allow the new ray gun to power his suit as well. But the chemical discharge thing? Sure, it makes targets cold... but it doesn't actually create ice or anything like that unless you fire it into a puddle. So, swaps out the chemical system, and works in a set of gas jets not unlike a flamethrower, which blast out at low temperatures and such high pressure that the discharge from the gun is less ray/energy and more like fog, a fog that immediately freezes on contact with physical objects, covering everything in a couple inches of ice. And now Jack can have his lame cold ray back.

Cool Guy, of course, justifies his changes as 'necessary improvements' but also, in reality... its likely that if he directly copied Frost's cold gun, it simply wouldn't work. Devisor is sort of the ultimate extension of the concept of taking something apart and putting it back together always results in a couple spare parts that should have gone back in... somewhere. But hey, it runs, so those parts must not be critical.

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8 years 3 months ago #24 by Ametros

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There also seems to be the sense in this thread that Devisors have control over what they do. That whenever they build something it is their choice and that they could easily choose to do something differently.

Now it may very well be wrong, but the impression I get is that their abilities result in devises less through choice and more through compulsion. The tendency for these individuals to get absorbed in their work is a common trend throughout, and furthermore they tend to have fairly specific themes in their products - whether it be in specific theories/sciences (pseudo or otherwise) or in more general themes such as "weapons" or the above-mentioned "cold". They might be compelled to build certain types of devises, or to use certain aspects in their work - but that's just the impression I get.

Or maybe I've just read too much of Morpheus' "Twisted" universe... As if such a thing is possible.

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8 years 3 months ago #25 by Kristin Darken

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That's more a factor of 'untrained' devisors than the trait as a whole. That's why I point out that Devisor/Gadgeteer are Psi derivative powers. Using them is a lot like using Precog. When you first start out, you have no idea what's going to trigger a vision. It may be tied directly to something you just experienced, someone you met... or, it could have nothing to do with anything you have experienced and be completely out of your range of connecting to it. Once you get experience with and control of it, Precog can be used just like the base five senses. You want to look into possibilities tied to a specific person or location or object? Completely possible... as long as things aren't too chaotic around those events or you don't lose control (not everyone gets control to match their power level).

Devisors are like that: when they are first manifesting, any thought can trigger an event and they're off in the shop working on something. And possibly not walking out again until its done. There's a reason a lot of early devisors have weapons and defense technology. Things are unstable, they manifesting as a mutant, shit's dangerous! They want something to make them safe. So almost any triggering of their ability is going to result in something combat oriented. As they get more experience, though, they can guide what route it goes in... which is how they end up as 'themed' powers, often enough. Psychological currents would influence the growth of patterns in how they work. And with control they may also get to the point where they can leave the lab and go back and still resume a project without losing it. Otherwise, devisors would starve to death by the time they evolved beyond simple handheld stuff.

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8 years 3 months ago #26 by Ametros

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Makes sense, given how biased the narrative has inherently been towards depicting relatively inexperienced devisors.

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8 years 3 months ago #27 by Queshire

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Kristin Darken wrote: And in a discussion specifically about fan fiction, I would preface comments like these with "but its fan fiction and you aren't locked into following the rules, do what you want"... but we aren't. This is a concept discussion thread about the universe... and that means, I'm explaining the difference in the mechanics of the canon universe. Kettlekorn puts it well in his post above...

Nothing in the concepts that you're talking about are impossible, within the WU mechanics anyway... you just insist on calling it a Devisor instead of a Warper. Or another Psi trait. Or attributing the end result to the mutant instead of to the objects the mutant has created. This is like growing up being told all those flying yellow and black bugs are bumblebees. And then, when you're older someone says... oh... no... only the furry fat ones are actually bumble bees. Those other ones are wasps. It doesn't change what a bumble bee or a wasp is... it just puts you in a position of needing to change the word you are using to describe them. While it may be a hassle for you to reassociate to the proper term, it may also help in the long term... because bees and wasps need to be handled differently for stings.

I appreciate this, but I’m still a bit confused.

To reference Kettlekorn’s example again, I don’t want to use the hammer for blacksmithing but I think it’s interesting to consider the extent of what could fall under carpentry.

From a Doylist perspective I understand the importance of making sure that Devising isn’t a do-anything power and that it’s primary purpose is to help fill the Mad Scientist design space.

From a Watsonian perspective though, and I fully admit that I’m not working on full information here, but has it ever been addressed why Devises take the form of technological creations?

As a writer I think there’s interesting potential in examining non-traditional Devises. What would a Mad Anthropologist be like? What about a villain who on the surface looks like a mage only when the heroes come loaded for bear (or magic in this case) it turns out that he’s a Devisor. Do Devises need a physical component? On TV you see mathematicians with walls of chalkboards filled with math. That sort of stuff seems as difficult as engineering to me and isn’t knowledge that fucks with you a big part of the mythos?

Sorry if I’m causing offense with any of these but I think that they’re interesting possibilities to consider? If nothing else, wouldn’t people in universe be asking these same questions since they don’t have word of god to rely on?

Kristin Darken wrote: Cool Guy, of course, justifies his changes as 'necessary improvements' but also, in reality... its likely that if he directly copied Frost's cold gun, it simply wouldn't work. Devisor is sort of the ultimate extension of the concept of taking something apart and putting it back together always results in a couple spare parts that should have gone back in... somewhere. But hey, it runs, so those parts must not be critical.

Ha! This makes me wonder if the Devisor classes at Whateley ever basically play Devisor!Telephone. One person makes something, gives it to someone else that fiddles with it, who gives it to someone else, etc and so on until they see how much it’s changed at the end of the chain.

Kristin Darken wrote: Devisors are like that: when they are first manifesting, any thought can trigger an event and they're off in the shop working on something. And possibly not walking out again until its done. There's a reason a lot of early devisors have weapons and defense technology. Things are unstable, they manifesting as a mutant, shit's dangerous! They want something to make them safe. So almost any triggering of their ability is going to result in something combat oriented. As they get more experience, though, they can guide what route it goes in... which is how they end up as 'themed' powers, often enough. Psychological currents would influence the growth of patterns in how they work. And with control they may also get to the point where they can leave the lab and go back and still resume a project without losing it. Otherwise, devisors would starve to death by the time they evolved beyond simple handheld stuff.

Oh hey, this explains a lot. Though it makes me wonder, if themes are a result of psychological influences, could something happen to “lock” a Devisor into a theme, potentially one that the Devisor themselves hates? Though I imagine that would have to be something on the level of a trauma then.

Also how much choice would a Devisor have in their theme? I get a cold theme for someone that likes winter but I mean stuff like a theme that the Devisor isn’t quite sure why they they find stuff in that theme easier than other stuff. Since the Devisor mind set can be trained would that mostly be something for untrained / inexperienced Devisors?

8 years 3 months ago #28 by Kristin Darken

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Queshire wrote: I appreciate this, but I’m still a bit confused.

Confused about something I (or someone else) have explained... or that I'm not cooperating and agreeing with you?

From a Doylist perspective I understand the importance of making sure that Devising isn’t a do-anything power and that it’s primary purpose is to help fill the Mad Scientist design space.

Uh... no. We have baseline mad scientists and Shimmelhorn Engineers to fill the mad science design space. Just as there are baseline mages and baseline Psychics and bad-ass normal combatant types in the WU. The Devisor is there for fantastic science that can't be used by the general populace. Or, in trope concepts... we have Devisors to fill the trope "Reed Richards is useless" and the Gadgeteer to avert it.

But no matter how you look at it, the trait is about hands on science. Tinkering. Building something. You'll note that most Devisor tech you've seen so far is quite practical. It may be 'themed' (egg shaped things for Bugs) but it generally has a fairly normal real world application. This isn't mad science where you're creating things who purpose isn't even understood by the average person, but there ARE components of a devise that can't be explained by normal math/science. That's one of the problems that immediately flags these things that are being suggested as 'not likely' as Devisors. They don't have components, let alone components complex enough that you can create one in ways that are not using normal methods.

Computer code skirts the edge because you can still do the 'black box' test on code. Or, in other terms... you can send parameters to a function and get parameters back without knowing what happened in between. That function could have been normal code. Or it could have been a Devise/Devised code. All that matters to the program as a whole is that the input parameters were passed in properly, and that you get the right output data to go back into the main program.

From a Watsonian perspective though, and I fully admit that I’m not working on full information here, but has it ever been addressed why Devises take the form of technological creations?

Why would it have to be... its sort of a fundamental part of every Devise and Devisor that we've shown in-universe.

As a writer I think there’s interesting potential in examining non-traditional Devises. What would a Mad Anthropologist be like? What about a villain who on the surface looks like a mage only when the heroes come loaded for bear (or magic in this case) it turns out that he’s a Devisor. Do Devises need a physical component? On TV you see mathematicians with walls of chalkboards filled with math. That sort of stuff seems as difficult as engineering to me and isn’t knowledge that fucks with you a big part of the mythos?

Sorry if I’m causing offense with any of these but I think that they’re interesting possibilities to consider? If nothing else, wouldn’t people in universe be asking these same questions since they don’t have word of god to rely on?

Again, you're looking at it backwards. Sure, from a perspective of "lets create as unlimited definition of a power trait as we can to ensure that we can develop a huge variety of different characters" what you say makes sense. But that's not really our goal in defining powers. When we define the powers we're are imposing limits. Intentionally. Because by setting limits around the shape, we all know what we mean when we say 'devisor' ... if we open it up to things that don't have to be 'built' in some fashion, then lines are blurred. That's not a good thing when you aren't working solo.

Also how much choice would a Devisor have in their theme? I get a cold theme for someone that likes winter but I mean stuff like a theme that the Devisor isn’t quite sure why they they find stuff in that theme easier than other stuff. Since the Devisor mind set can be trained would that mostly be something for untrained / inexperienced Devisors?

Mostly, I think this is something that happens on the subconscious level and they are already heading down a path towards it when they manifest.

Even if it isn't... I don't know too many authors who haven't already selected both theme and personality when they begin writing. So we're typically seeing the integration of personality to theme from word one... by author choice, not character.

Fate guard you and grant you a Light to brighten your Way.

8 years 3 months ago #29 by Valentine

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Maybe if we look at some of the Devisors in the stories.

Boobm Job knows what she is building, although she often doesn't complete what she starts. What she builds works for her, and will work for people that she builds things for, although they often need maintenance that only she can provide.

Lady Havoc usually knows what she is building, although she often gets distracted and builds something completely different. She can build anything she can imagine, but again she seems to get distracted and ends up with something else. At least one of her devices has been modified by either another Devisor or Gadgeteer, although I think that was just the removal of a component.

Jobe is full control of what he makes (breeds?), although if rushed it may not work quite right (The Fury Twins). Jobe's creations have also been modified by others, although that might have been a "gadget."

Bugs' is a Gadgeteer/Devisor and while she builds what she plans on building, if I understand her origin correctly she doesn't know if it is a Gadget or a Devise until it is tested.

Mobius is a Devisor and his science "isn't." His stuff seems to be very stable and robust, since it apparently works for everyone and survives other warping. (I wonder what Phase did with all the earlier versions of his "Batman Belts.")

Belphegor's Devisor ability seems to allow him to modify and combine other gadgets and devises. (Belphoebe seems to have some of this also.)

Looking through the list of Devisors, it seems that many are also Gadgeteers. It also sees that some of them can build Gadget versions of their Devises, or at least think they can. Jericho's personal armor is a Devise, but the armor he is designing for sale is a Gadget. Flashbang and Tinkertrain are working on turning their "Alpha Wave Bomb" from Devises to Gadgets.

Other than the "Software Devises," I don't think any of the Devisors produce anything non material. Some of the Devises produce other stuff ('Shine's makes liquor, Goodvibes makes sound), others the Devise is the final product (Mobius' containers, various Power Armors).

I suppose that you could make a Music Meister or Pied Piper type character where the "music" is the Devise, but they are much easier to explain as Psychic or Magic. (Hmmm would a high quality digital recording reproduce the effects.) Then you also run into reproduce-ability, is it the music or the person.

"Ear Worms" could be Devises, they make you remember and try to reproduce them. :evil:

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8 years 3 months ago #30 by Queshire

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By the way, would the tendency for a Devise to work wonky when used by someone else still apply if the devise was specifically made to be used by someone else?

Like a Devisor in a super team who doesn't go out to fight crime themselves, but gears up the other members of the team.

8 years 3 months ago #31 by Phoenix Spiritus

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In lots of stories it's been stated that devices of this nature will work, but that they would require constant regular maintenance by their maker to stay working correctly.

8 years 3 months ago #32 by NJM1564

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I think it might be more a variation in devicer talent.
With some devices being more stable than other.
Some devices made requiring maintenance some not.
Some devicers work being able to be used by others.
Some devicers being able to use the work of others.
Some devicers work being able to be modified and replicated by others.
Some devicers being able to modify and replicat the work of others.
No resion all devicers would have the same characteristics after all. How many forms/veriations of bricks are there? How many forms/veriations of warpers.

8 years 3 months ago #33 by elrodw

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We've seen this in Roulette and in Rise n' Shine - regular maintenance needed but some devisors can make things that others can use (temporarily)

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8 years 3 months ago #34 by Kristin Darken

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My take on the "plays well with others" factor of devises is that it is a factor of how far from the normal laws of physics the Devisor strayed to produce the end result vs the power level of the Devisor. So, if a low ranked Devisor builds something that is more or less doable by current or next gen technology... but uses etherically aligned crystals instead of electronic circuits... it's going to be fairly stable in that Devisor's hands. It might fail semi-regularly in someone else's use and require regular maintenance but it'll work. On the other hand, if a high ranked Devisor built the same thing, its going to be stable and that Devisor might be able to make multiple similar devises and pass them around to friends, sell them, and so forth... and only rarely have one fail.

On the other hand, a low ranked Devisor who builds a Matter to Energy, Energy to Matter transportation system? Is going to have to operate that manually. And even then, its going to need regular maintenance to avoid spitting out evil clone versions of people who come through it. A high ranked Devisor might get away with letting other people run it or setting it on auto for various people to use. IF they maintain it regularly. If not, some people are going to come through in the wrong bodies from time to time. And they're never going to make a lot of copies of it.

Something like replication tech that is based on aetheric fluids and magnetic suspension fields and stale jelly beans? Even a high ranked Devisor is going to have a tough time keeping that stable... and letting someone else try to order Tea, Earl Grey, hot? is likely to rip a hole in spacetime.

Fate guard you and grant you a Light to brighten your Way.

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