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8 years 4 months ago #1 by Jarjaross

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Okay this seems to kind of be my thing on this part of the forums so here I go.

Are there any non-shifter gender fluid characters in Whateley?

Allow me to specify and give reasons to the parameters of the question:
Specify

The character has a fluid gender identity that changes on a (ir?)regular if not frequent basis. I do not mean that the character is confused/mis-identifying themselves as they realize they are trans/non-binary, but their identity truly shifts as a natural part of who they are.
The character is not able to change their appearance through some aspect of their power. This disqualifies shifters which are skilled enough to change their gender, avatars that have multiple forms of different genders, and possibly manifestors who can produce different shells.

Reason

I'm just being specific to make sure we are, well, sure that the character is gender fluid. Although my definition is still rather broad and could encompass gender flux, fluid flux, bigender, and many others, I think for the purposes of this question (and this question only*) the difference is irrelevant.
I know there are shifters in universe that are gender fluid, and there is Jamie, I've seen how they are dealt with, and quite frankly I think they are dealt with rather well. See the follow up questions for why I wanted them not to count.

Follow up questions:
How would Whateley deal with such a person? They would probably be placed in Poe but that would cause problems with the secret. The other place to put them would be Melville but I don't know how well they'd last without the support system.

Are there Devises for people in this predicament? They wouldn't work for Exemplars but that doesn't mean baseline Billie/Billy wouldn't want something to always be their ture self.

How would they deal with it? In a world of magic, illusion, and super science would they settle for the simple androgyny that most do today? Or would they have all manor of useful little tricks, gadgets, and charms to help them pass as whatever they wanted?

Ps. I was thinking of doing more of these posts. Just find a random gender/sexual identity that isn't showcased in canon and thinking up questions to ask about them. Also provide a place to discuss the less well known parts of the comunity. Tell me if you think either a) this is a good idea, or b) this is crossing the line. {Or, you know, c) something else I couldn't come up with. Not everything fits into a binary}

*okay there are other places where it could be irrelivent but they are seperate identities and we should acknowledge that.

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8 years 4 months ago #2 by GrimGrendel

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I don't any such character, but then again I'm not the best reference around.

Those are good questions, and I think it's a great idea to prob questions at different character designs that have not been explored in canon yet, although I wouldn't limit myself to only inquire about gender identity. It's a good start to be sure, but there are plenty more stock character types that we could explore. Things like morality (is there a Blue/Orange morality guy in Whateley?), mental diseases (is there a student suffering from Alzheimer's?), life goals (was there any attempt made to create an official mutant sport?) and so on could make for great inspirational points of discussion.

To answer your questions :

I do think a gender-fluid character would be put into Poe. Ayla showed that having one character be visible is not enough to endanger Poe's secret, and that character would probably need the support and contacts there. It also make it easier for them to find an accepting boyfriend/girlfriend, since many bisexual girls there have been shown to be attracted more to people in between (That's a meta reason to make things interesting from an author's point of view, not Carson's point of view)

Before asking about devises we should ask if a gender-fluid character would like to be a shifter (similarly to Jade wishing to be a girl). If yes, there will be devises attempting (and probably failing) to achieve that

They would try anything and everything until they reach a state that comforts them in their current identity. Like all things, it comes as a spectrum. Some gender-fluid would settle for androgynous, others will seek to really dress fully one gender or the other, and some could even need to go further and become a shapeshifter somehow to eventually feel free of the dysphoria. Some may be satisfied in internal changes that are barely noticeable to others, like changing from their female group friend to a male one, or changing the way they think about themselves, or doing some activity that comforts them in their gender of the moment. Others may only be satisfied by being treated as who they ought to be, and they could use illusions and tricks so long as it helps others see them in the proper light, even though they might not feel internally changed by those illusion. In any case, if their powers can help in any way, they will use that first. Beware feeling like a fake. It could happen with the over reliance on illusions. Mega-girl is a good example of a character who is insecure in the fact that she uses illusions to be her true gender.

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8 years 4 months ago - 8 years 4 months ago #3 by Kristin Darken

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It's hard to say whether there are 'gender fluid' characters around in the population at Whateley for year one because most of that roster of characters was developed before the term gender fluid made its way into the language. The possibility of being gender fluid revolves around a societal freedom that is fairly new in our world... and may not have appeared yet in the Whateley'verse.

Things have come a long way for us in the past 15 years... look at how much more realistic TG Fiction is. When I first started reading at Fictionmania 20-ish years ago, accidental treatments of hormones/estrogen were capable of growing DD breasts on a teenage boy... changing vocal pitches from bass to soprano... widening hips in adult men... and everything short of making guys capable of pregnancy. And every black market unlicensed street clinic could do anything hormones couldn't... and often did. The idea of a show like Transparent being on television? Would have stunned me. The closest we used to get to that concept was bad crossdressing sit coms (Bosum Buddies?) in which the whole deal was handled as a joke. Or maybe the occasional Freaky Friday... or rare Sam Beckett Quantum Leap episode where Sam jumps into a woman.

These days, changes of that scope in a story require delving into alternate universes with advanced or alien technology or high magick... and even then, often with limitations and universe mechanics that reflect the complexity of changing genetics and the grown adult body biologically. Even the psychological impact of changes has matured in the average story.

Do we authors use terms like gender fluid to describe some characters now? Some, I suppose. We tend to refer to characters that don't fix a handful of 'common' gender categories (male, female, hermaphrodite, asexual) as 'complicated'. Which is then elaborated on in more detail in the character sheet. We could probably replace the word complicate with genderfluid... maybe...

----

As to a more specific response to what you're asking:

is there a character who is not a shifter who undergoes changes in gender as a part of their nature. Hmm... yes. I think so. In Gen 2. But this would be very rare... not because the gender shift wouldn't happen... but more because almost any change in body that is not one way, by nature of the power trait breakdown, almost has to be a Shifter. Someone with a BIT that results in a change (whether by nature of being an Exemplar or an Avatar whose spirit has defined a BIT or pseudo-BIT) is only going to change in one direction towards that BIT... and that handles the biological changes through regeneration. The only other trait that does biological changes is Shifting.

Now... if you step outside the scope of it being part of their powers... ie.. its the result of a spell cast on them, an enchanted item, a device, etc... that's a different story. Then, the nature of their change is an external factor.

Either way, if they wanted (or admin thought it was wise for them to have) the support network of being in Poe... that would be a valid reason to be in Poe.

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Last Edit: 8 years 4 months ago by Kristin Darken.

8 years 4 months ago #4 by Jarjaross

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Even when I am trying so hard I end up confusing people on what I mean.

Kristin, the question you answered is an interesting one but not the one I was asking. I was wondering about a character who does not have any way to change their appearance through their own powers being gender fluid.

8 years 4 months ago #5 by Malady

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Jarjaross wrote: Even when I am trying so hard I end up confusing people on what I mean.

Kristin, the question you answered is an interesting one but not the one I was asking. I was wondering about a character who does not have any way to change their appearance through their own powers being gender fluid.

Hmm... I guess a test might be "If I was turned into a guy/girl, would I care?" ... But, then there's the sexual-biological aspects too, having breasts or not, etc...

To truly focus on gender, you'd somehow need to cut out all the sexual-biological aspects? But then, what do you have left? ... Gender Roles?

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8 years 4 months ago #6 by DanZilla

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If I understand this correctly... it's all about presentation and how the person wants to be perceived changing from day to day along Gender Roles instead of just along social groups or cliques.

An example... Ayla dresses formally for Golden Kids events and Business-like for corporate meetings and such... those are his choices based on social group. His concession to appearance is that he allows himself to dress slightly feminine in order to blend in better, due to his body shape, and get a more positive response socially. His CHOICE, however, is to always dress male and this doesn't change. This is not fluid. It's set.

A Gender-fluid person, OTOH, irregardless of physical gender or combination of genders... makes the choice, along with whether to be perceived as Goth, Cowboy, Geeky or Sporty, as to what Gender they PRESENT to the outside world. They MAY choose to be a single gender for a good while and all of a sudden, one day, wake up and feel more of a different gender and choose to dress that way instead.

It's a difficult concept that I think I'm perhaps confusing more...

Bottom-line... One day they may feel Male and go to classes that way... irregardless of what they actually are. The next day it may be Female.

Like with Transgender, it's not a choice... it's how they are. The only choice is in how they choose to deal with it.

8 years 4 months ago #7 by Kristin Darken

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Yes, Dan's description matches my understanding of gender fluid... and that's why I answered the way I did, noting that we don't have characters like that in the original Gen 1 stories mainly because the concept of being ABLE to function like that in society was as far fetched to us 15 yrs ago as some of the sci-fi and magical transformations were. And that's in our world, where discrimination has been taking a beating for a number of years... in the WU, where things are still very tense over civil (especially mutant) rights; the option to be gender fluid may not even seem possible yet.

I did misunderstand in the point of powers issues - thinking that your comment that it wasn't due to Shifting meant you had another means of adjusting biology to mindset. Sorry about that.

As far as a purely mindset oriented gender fluidity... the decision to place this person in Poe would be... difficult to make. The obvious point being that anyone subjecting themselves to the Whateley Universe's level of discrimination about gender issues as being gender fluid ... would benefit from the support structure in place there. However... being gender fluid also comes at a level of visibility that 'could' result in breaking Poe's secret. As a result, I think the decision could go either way... depending mainly on how confident the individual is.

It's difficult to judge whether someone 'could' feel free to be that open in the WU, especially during Gen 1... given all the established prejudices.

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8 years 4 months ago - 8 years 4 months ago #8 by Jarjaross

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I know a really good grahpic for helping explain both gender flux and gender fluid.

Go down the the lightbulb example on this link . Also the other explanatons are good,

Last Edit: 8 years 4 months ago by Jarjaross.

8 years 3 months ago #9 by Cryptic

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Thought Rick Riordan was doing pretty good with his gender fluid character Alex . Character is in Magnus Chase and the Hammer of Thor.

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8 years 3 months ago #10 by Jarjaross

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Cryptic wrote: Thought Rick Riordan was doing pretty good with his gender fluid character Alex . Character is in Magnus Chase and the Hammer of Thor.

Have not read that one. Will have to find a copy.

8 years 3 months ago #11 by Queshire

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Cryptic wrote: Thought Rick Riordan was doing pretty good with his gender fluid character Alex . Character is in Magnus Chase and the Hammer of Thor.

I second this recommendation, though just as a warning Alex doesn't show up until the second book in the series. I don't think you need to read the first book to understand the second, particularly if you've read a Riordan book before. The first book isn't exactly bad, but Loki was the best part of it in my opinion.

Also, Alex has shape changing abilities that he/she uses pretty frequently, though I don't think it's ever confirmed or not whether he/she uses them to change sex along with gender.

8 years 3 months ago #12 by Malady

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Only read book 1! Was wondering why I didn't know Alex. Gotta get book 2...

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8 years 3 months ago #13 by Cryptic

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Queshire wrote:
Cryptic wrote: Thought Rick Riordan was doing pretty good with his gender fluid character Alex . Character is in Magnus Chase and the Hammer of Thor.

I second this recommendation, though just as a warning Alex doesn't show up until the second book in the series. I don't think you need to read the first book to understand the second, particularly if you've read a Riordan book before. The first book isn't exactly bad, but Loki was the best part of it in my opinion.

Also, Alex has shape changing abilities that he/she uses pretty frequently, though I don't think it's ever confirmed or not whether he/she uses them to change sex along with gender.

My take was that one the one thing she couldn't change no matter the form she takes.

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8 years 3 months ago #14 by Queshire

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Really? I never got that sense. Just that Alex's male and female forms are close enough visually that you would need him / her to tell you in order to notice. It's a YA novel so it wasn't really like we'd ever get a glimpse under the hood such as it was.

8 years 2 months ago #15 by DonTZ125

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Those graphics ... actually made a little sense. My hard-wired NATO-Standard brain is still boggled that such a thing CAN be, but this did help.

Back to your first post; just so I'm clear - Reach ("The Big Idea") doesn't count for this discussion because (ah, crap ... ) "s/he / they / ?" physically changes between male and female?

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8 years 2 months ago #16 by Valentine

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DonTZ125 wrote: Those graphics ... actually made a little sense. My hard-wired NATO-Standard brain is still boggled that such a thing CAN be, but this did help.

Back to your first post; just so I'm clear - Reach ("The Big Idea") doesn't count for this discussion because (ah, crap ... ) "s/he / they / ?" physically changes between male and female?

Reach's gender identity doesn't change, even as he switches sexes. He still thinks of himself as a guy in either form.

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8 years 2 months ago #17 by elrodw

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In Gen 2, we have Ping Pong (no relation to the SFL intern named Ping Pong) who switches physical gender back and forth, and it's hinted that he/she is rather curious about both sides of his/her body.

Danny in Gen 1 is still quite young, and he's not used to his Wihinape body, so it's not known if his gender identity is fluid or not. Only time (and I) will tell.

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8 years 2 months ago - 8 years 2 months ago #18 by Phoenix Spiritus

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elrodw wrote: Danny in Gen 1 is still quite young, and he's not used to his Wihinape body, so it's not known if his gender identity is fluid or not. Only time (and I) ~~will~~ won't tell.

Fixed that for you :evil:

Last Edit: 8 years 2 months ago by Phoenix Spiritus.

8 years 2 months ago #19 by OtherEric

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Valentine wrote:
DonTZ125 wrote: Those graphics ... actually made a little sense. My hard-wired NATO-Standard brain is still boggled that such a thing CAN be, but this did help.

Back to your first post; just so I'm clear - Reach ("The Big Idea") doesn't count for this discussion because (ah, crap ... ) "s/he / they / ?" physically changes between male and female?

Reach's gender identity doesn't change, even as he switches sexes. He still thinks of himself as a guy in either form.

I may be forgetting something, but I really don't get that impression. I actually think genderfluid might be the best description for Reach... although I'm not sure the term had particularly wide currency at the time of the story. That may just be me, though.

8 years 2 months ago #20 by Jarjaross

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Valentine wrote:
DonTZ125 wrote: Those graphics ... actually made a little sense. My hard-wired NATO-Standard brain is still boggled that such a thing CAN be, but this did help.

Back to your first post; just so I'm clear - Reach ("The Big Idea") doesn't count for this discussion because (ah, crap ... ) "s/he / they / ?" physically changes between male and female?

Reach's gender identity doesn't change, even as he switches sexes. He still thinks of himself as a guy in either form.

I disagree, by the end of the story I would say Reach is very much a girl. S/he associates most of his/her insecurities with being male and much prefers being female. Even if s/he prefers to refer to her/himself as male for bureaucratic purposes s/he expresses much more pleasure at being female.

Yes Reach wouldn't count toward the original question, no s/he would not. The question is about a gender fluid character who actually has to deal with being gender fluid with a single form.

As to the allegations that Reach is gender fluid. I'm not sure if I agree. I certainly like the theory and could provide evidence to support it, but I'm not not sure I should. Reach is one of my favourite characters, latching onto an aspect of a character and blowing it out of proportion is something I think of tantamount to insulting the author. The most I will say is that I like the interpretation.

The graphics are rather good at explaining things aren't they?

8 years 2 months ago - 8 years 2 months ago #21 by DonTZ125

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OtherEric wrote:
Valentine wrote:
DonTZ125 wrote: Those graphics ... actually made a little sense. My hard-wired NATO-Standard brain is still boggled that such a thing CAN be, but this did help.

Back to your first post; just so I'm clear - Reach ("The Big Idea") doesn't count for this discussion because (ah, crap ... ) "s/he / they / ?" physically changes between male and female?

Reach's gender identity doesn't change, even as he switches sexes. He still thinks of himself as a guy in either form.

I may be forgetting something, but I really don't get that impression. I actually think genderfluid might be the best description for Reach... although I'm not sure the term had particularly wide currency at the time of the story. That may just be me, though.

As of the original story, Harlan has less control over his powers than she does as Harley. This is because his male role model - his father - is a complete asshole who always tells him he's worthless, but her female role model - her maternal aunt - is always supportive, and an example of what an adult should be:

Then this happened,” Harley indicated her body. “And suddenly I had permission to be smart and cool and all like that.

It sounds to me like gender-switching.

Edit to add: Ninja'd by Jarjaross!

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8 years 2 months ago - 8 years 2 months ago #22 by Jarjaross

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Hah, yes I am ninja now!

No not ninja yet, I need to be invisible, where is my book.

Now that that is out of my system what does 'NATO-Standard brain' mean?

Upon research I found ot that NATO is a military alliace (I thought 'twas something to do with aeronautics) which does not help to interpret the statement.

Also which graphics in particular helped? I reccomend the lightbulb one because it looks like a good description from my side of the fence, but it is always good to get multiple perspectives.

Edit: just remembered something I wanted to add earlier. Bek is no stranger to writing genderfluid/bigender characters. He has one story (not sure if it is in this library) where a character has two distinct personalities (and groups of friends, and skill levels at tasks) depending on whether they are male or female at the time. Admitedly the shifting mechanism is different (feeling confident causes Reach to shift where as failing (and the bigger the fail the longer it lasts) causes the other character to shift).

Last Edit: 8 years 2 months ago by Jarjaross.

8 years 2 months ago - 8 years 2 months ago #23 by Sir Lee

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That would be " The Art of the Duel " over at Sapphire's.

By the way, I did some logo/cover art for it

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Don't call me "Shirley." You will surely make me surly.

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8 years 2 months ago #24 by Bek D Corbin

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How Nice!

8 years 2 months ago #25 by Jarjaross

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Is it supposed to go from eastern to western symbolism?

8 years 2 months ago - 8 years 2 months ago #26 by Sir Lee

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It comes directly from the story -- the dueling rings described in it. And yes, the outer ring is Western Zodiac symbols, while the inner circle is a Taoist bagua, an Yin/Yang symbol surrounded by the eight basic permutations of the I Ching. I melded two different SVGs I found around the Web to achieve the desired result. And yes, if you look at the message, it is also available in SVG form.

Well, might as well upload another one. This is a montage I made as cover art for Bittersweet Tea. It was done before I got the hang of working with shadows, though, so I might redo it one of these days. I still have the original photos...

Don't call me "Shirley." You will surely make me surly.

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8 years 2 months ago #27 by Bek D Corbin

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aaawww... you remember that story?

8 years 2 months ago - 8 years 2 months ago #28 by DonTZ125

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Jarjaross wrote: Now that that is out of my system what does 'NATO-Standard brain' mean?

Upon research I found ot that NATO is a military alliace (I thought 'twas something to do with aeronautics) which does not help to interpret the statement.

Dippy joke basis, common with Canadian troops; not sure about other countries. Because NATO is a multinational military alliance, the ability to use each others equipment and spare parts means a lot of careful standardization has to happen - few things are more annoying than running dry in the middle of a battle, and realising the (other-country) force you're attached to doesn't have your kind of ammunition. It's to the point where Tim Horton's coffee can be ordered "NATO Standard", and a lot of the staff at on-base Timmy's will understand what is desired (double-double).

In this case, I'm plain vanilla cis-het, so my brain is NATO Standard - the most common and interchangeable kind, with no extra settings, modifications, or selectable operating modes. (For the humour-challenged, I'm poking fun at ME, thenkew vettymuch!)

Also which graphics in particular helped? I reccomend the lightbulb one because it looks like a good description from my side of the fence, but it is always good to get multiple perspectives.

1 was kind of meaningless, but 2 was a good starting point. Some were funny, some were poignant, some were both - "Always a bridesbee, never a broom ..." was cute. I agree that 17 was the best for explaining ... not the 'mechanics' of it, but how your view of yourself can change.

There were a few that really didn't help the 'explain it to the straights' cause (and I'm using the older, '60s-70s meaning of straights). 3 and 12 were condescending; yes, that's how my brain works, but when 99% + of the world populace is wired that way, it ain't 'just' all in my head. I would also suggest that the majority of genderfluid also use the cues in 12 both to select their appearance depending on their "setting" (sorry - better word?), and to determine the gender of anyone they're dealing with. I mean really, how many TG or GF walk up to someone with a feminine body shape and dressed in heels and a little black dress, and ask what that person's gender is? As for 10, 'they' is rarely used for a single individual, so yes - it is grammatically incorrect.

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8 years 2 months ago #29 by Bek D Corbin

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Jarjaross wrote: Now that that is out of my system what does 'NATO-Standard brain' mean?

Basically, it means, 'it does the job in a rather mediocre way'. It comes from the decision made decades ago by the US Army to discard its traditional sidearm, the Colt Army 1911A1 .45 semiautomatic pistol for a Baretta 9mm semiautomatic. This was because the other military forces in NATO used 9mm ammunition, and it was considered vital that the various forces be able to share ammunition if war with the Soviet Union came. the 1911A1 is widely regarded as the best semiauto pistol every designed: accurate, durable, reliable, easily to clean, delivers a punch like an Army mule, and shared ammo with the famous Thompson .45 SMG. The Beretta was... a competent firearm.

And No, I'm not a Gun afficiando. I'm a Gamer, and you pick these things up.

8 years 2 months ago #30 by DonTZ125

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I think you'll find 'NATO Standard' long predates the choice to swap from .45 to 9mm, and the choice of the Beretta was a separate decision from adopting 9mm.

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8 years 2 months ago #31 by Sir Lee

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Bek D Corbin wrote: aaawww... you remember that story?

Actually, I'm sorta surprised that you haven't put it on Kindle yet. Even if you aren't into TG, it stands on its own very well as an horror story. Granted, it's not as great as "Curse of the Brewsters", but it's very good.

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8 years 2 months ago #32 by Jarjaross

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If you think 'they' is gramatically incorrect due to uncommon usage you are sorely mistaken. There are many expressions in the english language that make no gramatical sense but we apply meaning to them. Double negatives being a prime example (officiallly our language does not recognize any use of double negatives, they have no meaning because our grammar doesn't know how they should work). There are also multitudes of words and alternate meanings in our language outside of common use that are still acknowledged even if they aren't used.

Also watch this video

8 years 2 months ago #33 by Phoenix Spiritus

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Actually in English (well, at least the English I learned in Australia) "double negatives" mean the same thing as double negatives do in maths, i.e. they cancel each other out.

I remember this particularly because for some reason both the Maths teachers and the English teachers picked the same week to teach "double negatives" and both used the other as the example for the students to "understand" the concept. Funnily enough, lots of us just got confused.

8 years 2 months ago - 8 years 2 months ago #34 by null0trooper

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Jarjaross wrote: Double negatives being a prime example (officiallly our language does not recognize any use of double negatives, they have no meaning because our grammar doesn't know how they should work).

Double negatives in English usage generally aren't misunderstood, so it's safe to presume the usage conveys meaning.

Forum-posted ideas are freely adoptable.

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8 years 2 months ago #35 by DonTZ125

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Double-negatives aren't so much incorrect as incorrectly used - "I ain't got no money" is usually intended to mean "I'm broke," when it actually means "I DO have money." When used correctly, it's generally used for emphasis - "It was critical that the nuclear operators did NOT misunderstand the safe operating procedures." It has the same meaning as, "It was critical that the nuclear operators understood the safe operating procedures," but with a much higher degree of !!!!

Exchange Student - A Buffy the Vampire Slayer Cross-over

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8 years 2 months ago #36 by DonTZ125

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Jarjaross wrote: If you think 'they' is gramatically incorrect due to uncommon usage you are sorely mistaken.

Also watch this video

Ok, I watched it, and ... it doesn't really support your case the way you seem to be suggesting. The man's own comments - "It just seems normal now. It's going to depend on your dialect whether it sounds sounds good to you, but - brace yourself - singular they is spreading very fast."

What his comments said to me is that a gender-neutral pronoun is a good idea, and they/their/them is being adopted as that pronoun. That's not the same as 'singular they is grammatically correct.'

Exchange Student - A Buffy the Vampire Slayer Cross-over

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8 years 2 months ago #37 by Jarjaross

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The factmthat there is no consistant ruling or undestanding on double negatives is my point. In other languages double negatives are standard (they must be used in a negative statement), used for emphasis (like we normally see them used), or used to mean a positive (as some of you have stated is the english use), but the english language has no consistent ruling on which is correct. The fact that none of the arguments against it seem to quite match up with each other kinda proves my point.

My point in you watching the video is "are you going to use 'he or she' every time you want to address me or are you going to use they?" and quite frankly what would you use in the case of a non-binary person. If we don't want to force new words into the new language we will use they.

Also your argument is 'common usage' which has the problem that it is in common usage is some places and comunities. There are bunches of words in the dictionary that only retain obsolete meanings because of they are commonly used in one (fractionally small) subsection of the speakers of the language. So why should you think of 'they' any differently than those words?

8 years 2 months ago #38 by DonTZ125

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The factmthat there is no consistant ruling or undestanding on double negatives is my point.

Where did you get that? "I ain't got no money" is egregiously horrid grammar, typically uttered by insufficiently educated hooligans and extras on old "Our Gang" shorts. A double-negative is properly used as an emphatic affirmative.

The problem I have with the concept of "singular they" is that it is being presented as a fait accompli - "get used to it," the man said. Well - no, it's not a "but of course" situation. Your own comment about usage in fractional communities argues AGAINST your point. Just because it's correct in YOUR community, does not negate the notion that in many OTHER communities it is INcorrect.

I am not trying to pick a fight or be insulting. I actually have no particular issue AGAINST the use of 'singular they'; my objection is the arrogance of insisting "that this is how it is, suck it up and deal with it" that I saw in the video, and presented by graphic #10. Not a good way to make friends and influence people, not a good way to advance one's cause.

If we don't want to force new words into the new language we will use they.

Well ... why NOT introduce a new word? Lesbian, homosexual, transgender, gender-fluid, agender - these are all fairly new nouns, adding a few very new concepts to the language. Why not a new pronoun? 'Singular they' is just as new for many people as 'Ze', with just as much potential for confusion - if not more, since you're ADDING a meaning (for many people) to an existing word, as opposed to introducing an entirely new word for an entirely new concept.

and quite frankly what would you use in the case of a non-binary person.

Quite frankly, it's never been an issue, or even a point to ponder. To the best of my knowledge, I have never met a non-binary IRL; you are the only person who has ever identified themself as Gender-fluid while I was in the room. Clearly, your preference for third person pronouns is they/their, and I will try to respect that.

Valentine gave me my second "Wait - what?" non-binary moment, when it declared that it is an it.

Exchange Student - A Buffy the Vampire Slayer Cross-over

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8 years 2 months ago #39 by JG

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If this thread doesn't get back on-topic I'm going to have it locked.

Find somewhere else (off the crystal Hall) to discuss grammar nitpicks like double negatives.

Grammar Nazi-ing will be met with destruction.

8 years 2 months ago #40 by Arcanist Lupus

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I kind of feel like the term "genderfluid" should be used to identify individuals who would be comfortable as any gender, but generally identify as the gender that most closely matches the body that they're in. That is, their gender is taking the shape of the container that it's in. I'm not sure what term we would use for what we currently call genderfluid, though. Gender-non-Newtonian-solid?

Obviously* I don't actually think that people should use the above definitions. I just find it amusing that I see a fairly well defined gender analog to the behavior of a fluid, and genderfluid isn't actually it.

*well, maybe not obviously. That's why I'm clarifying, after all.

"Shared pain is lessened; shared joy, increased — thus do we refute entropy." - Spider Robinson

8 years 2 months ago #41 by DonTZ125

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JG wrote: If this thread doesn't get back on-topic I'm going to have it locked.

Find somewhere else (off the crystal Hall) to discuss grammar nitpicks like double negatives.

Grammar Nazi-ing will be met with destruction.

My apologies; I try not to be too much of an asshole in other folks' playgrounds, but I tend to be spring-loaded in the pedantic position ...

Arcanist Lupus wrote: I kind of feel like the term "genderfluid" should be used to identify individuals who would be comfortable as any gender, but generally identify as the gender that most closely matches the body that they're in. That is, their gender is taking the shape of the container that it's in. I'm not sure what term we would use for what we currently call genderfluid, though. Gender-non-Newtonian-solid?

Obviously* I don't actually think that people should use the above definitions. I just find it amusing that I see a fairly well defined gender analog to the behavior of a fluid, and genderfluid isn't actually it.

*well, maybe not obviously. That's why I'm clarifying, after all.

My wife's smart-ass comment was that gender fluid is something that comes out of peoples' genitals ...

I was trying to think of a term that would describe the varying degree of gender-ness, reflecting the adjusting mechanism in graphic 17; gender-transition is too close to trans-gender, and there's too many people who can't (or simply won't) grasp THAT concept.

Exchange Student - A Buffy the Vampire Slayer Cross-over

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8 years 2 months ago #42 by Arcanist Lupus

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Gendershifter? Variable Gender? If you concatenate "Variable Gender" you can get "Vargen", which sounds pretty cool, I think.

Which reminds me of the old 'Find X' joke. Which actually seems like a pretty good metaphor for dealing with gender. Maybe that's just the engineer in me. I don't care what the exact ~~value~~ label of your gender is as long as I have a close enough approximation. Of course, how accurate that approximation needs to be depends on the activity (e.g. dating a person requires a much more accurate approximation than buying groceries from them)

"Shared pain is lessened; shared joy, increased — thus do we refute entropy." - Spider Robinson

8 years 2 months ago #43 by Valentine

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JG wrote: If this thread doesn't get back on-topic I'm going to have it locked.

Find somewhere else (off the crystal Hall) to discuss grammar nitpicks like double negatives.

Grammar Nazi-ing will be met with destruction.

“I think the Pronoun Police are going to have to call in the Grammar Federales on that sentence,” I complained.

“Not the Grammar Nazis?” Chaka smirked.

“No, definitely not the Grammar Nazis, “I insisted. “They were defeated by the Grammar Bobbies and the Grammar Sureté in a no-holds-barred wrestling match.”

“With folding chairs!” added Generator.

Jimmy T may qualify as gender fluid, Chimera may be bigender.

Don't Drick and Drive.

8 years 2 months ago #44 by Jarjaross

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All things considered I wouldn't use a number I'd use a vector.

I can feel different amounts of both and neither binary genders (as far as I have been able to percieve the damned inconsistent thing) at the same time so a number line from male to female doesn't really work. I know, I tried for about a month and a half, most stressful time I have exprienced with my gender.

The description of what gender fluid would be based off of how fluids actually work (assuming that human bodies are solid containers) sounds more like demi-gender and grey-gender to me.

8 years 2 months ago #45 by DonTZ125

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So, an X-Y plot? Or more like an XX-XY plot ...

Plot your %XX vs your %XY, draw a vector - that's how you feel today.

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8 years 2 months ago #46 by Valentine

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DonTZ125 wrote: So, an X-Y plot? Or more like an XX-XY plot ... Plot your %XX vs your %XY, draw a vector - that's how you feel today.

What about the XXY or XO or XXX or XYY? Don't they get a plot?

Don't Drick and Drive.

8 years 2 months ago #47 by Arcanist Lupus

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Jarjaross wrote: All things considered I wouldn't use a number I'd use a vector.

Or even a function. Identifying a gender is like trying to fit points in N dimensions to a curve

"Shared pain is lessened; shared joy, increased — thus do we refute entropy." - Spider Robinson

8 years 2 months ago #48 by Sir Lee

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PLEASE don't go into tensor calculus.

Don't call me "Shirley." You will surely make me surly.

8 years 2 months ago #49 by Jarjaross

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Arcanist Lupus wrote:
Jarjaross wrote: All things considered I wouldn't use a number I'd use a vector.
Or even a function. Identifying a gender is like trying to fit points in N dimensions to a curve

To be a function one side would have to be consistent to the other. You could theoretically plot a function X(m)=Max(f) or Y(f)=Max(m) but that is the best you could get.

You could theoretically plot an area (or a volume, lets not restrict ourselves to the binary) and a probability wave. That would give you a rough idea of whay the levels of one gender is given the value of the other gender.

All of the functions would be asymptotic too.

8 years 2 months ago #50 by JG

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You all give me a headache watching you all try to quantify an abstraction.

8 years 2 months ago #51 by OtherEric

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JG wrote: You all give me a headache watching you all try to quantify an abstraction.

It's like a gadgeteer watching a group of devisors confer, isn't it?

8 years 2 months ago #52 by DanZilla

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OtherEric wrote:
JG wrote: You all give me a headache watching you all try to quantify an abstraction.

It's like a gadgeteer watching a group of devisors confer, isn't it?

Or a gadgeteer watching a group of devisor conifers... you just don't know what you're seeing.

8 years 2 months ago #53 by Jarjaross

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DanZilla wrote:
OtherEric wrote:
JG wrote: You all give me a headache watching you all try to quantify an abstraction.

It's like a gadgeteer watching a group of devisors confer, isn't it?

Or a gadgeteer watching a group of devisor conifers... you just don't know what you're seeing.

More like a devisor watching a group of gadgeteers. Devisors work based off of passion while gadgeteers work with hard numbers.

Or more likely "its like a bunch of people who deal with quantitive values for a living try to deal with qualitatives."

8 years 2 months ago #54 by Sir Lee

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Or like the art director dealing with the programmers in a CGI company.

Don't call me "Shirley." You will surely make me surly.

8 years 1 month ago #55 by Jarjaross

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Sir Lee wrote: Or like the art director dealing with the programmers in a CGI company.

Oh dear lord.

Here is a story my graphic teacher told me.

So the animators spend months on the physics engine to get water droplets to act realistically. They finally have everything done and ready, all there ducks in a row as the expression goes. They show the demo of how everything goes together to the art director and he/she (I don't know the gender) says 'no.'

He/she points to a single water droplet, I repeat a single water droplet and says, 'that one should bounce over here.'

The response? 'But that isn't how physics works.' He/She doesn't care.

And 'tisn't like they can just readjust the object of that one drop. Oh no, they drop is a part of a larger source of water that all acts coherently as a liquid.

So the animators have to go to research and dvelopment (yes research and development exists for animators) and say 'hey we need most of this water to act normally but this one drop here to bounce over here instead.' Which takes another couple of weeks to solve, because oh yeah, they have to break the physics engine at one point, and just that one point, to do it.

8 years 1 month ago #56 by Phoenix Spiritus

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Valentine wrote:
DonTZ125 wrote: So, an X-Y plot? Or more like an XX-XY plot ... Plot your %XX vs your %XY, draw a vector - that's how you feel today.

What about the XXY or XO or XXX or XYY? Don't they get a plot?

OK seriously, are we still discussing humans here, or have we moved on to platypi?
Duck-billed platypus boasts ten sex chromosomes

8 years 1 month ago #57 by Valentine

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Phoenix Spiritus wrote:
Valentine wrote:
DonTZ125 wrote: So, an X-Y plot? Or more like an XX-XY plot ... Plot your %XX vs your %XY, draw a vector - that's how you feel today.

What about the XXY or XO or XXX or XYY? Don't they get a plot?

OK seriously, are we still discussing humans here, or have we moved on to platypi?
Duck-billed platypus boasts ten sex chromosomes

Those are all human chromosome anomalies.

Don't Drick and Drive.

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