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7 years 11 months ago #1 by Angeldude

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It's been mentioned many times that people other than non-wizard class mutants are capable of learning and performing magic. I'm just wondering how much effort and training would be required for someone with no magical ability to learn to cast spells on their own.

The TLW, from what I remember, were told that with enough practice, they would be able to start collecting essence all on their own. That said, they instead use since they're too impatient, they used some orb to siphon essence from another student, and when that failed, tried using a, presumably low cost, spell to get essence out of a spirit.

We've also seen magic users share their essence pools with others like how the White Lady lets the various hands tap into her pool, while JJ from The Final Trump borrows essence from his mother.

The white lady herself seems interesting in that her essence collection doesn't seem to be a wizard trait, but one of the many spells built in to the title. This seems to imply that Bianca's essence collection is from a dedicated rune that the original wizard gave the first White Lady. Would it be possible for a baseline to use a similar rune with a supervisor to bootstrap the required essence? (Fingers crossed Alyss weaves one such rune into her outfit.)

I'd also assume that someone with no innate magic ability would also have trouble with actual spells even after gaining a supply of essence. On this note, are there any stories showing some of the training required for someone to learn magic? The training seems to be glossed over in most cases.

Thank you. I'm personally a big fan of tropes like The Unchosen One and others where someone with no special abilities at all manages to keep up with those that do.

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7 years 11 months ago #2 by Yolandria

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There's a few snippets scattered all over the place. But most of what's featured is book learning. But there are a few characters that are baseline mages. Ayla and Diamondback come to mind. Might want to nose around in those stories for possible glimpses.

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7 years 11 months ago #3 by Arcanist Lupus

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In Ayla's conversation with Circe about essence, she said that there were ways of using essence to gather more essence. Which Ayla immediately filed under "investing" in his magical money metaphor. But even then, the most difficult part is not in gathering the essence, but in holding it. That's the part the TLW epically fail at. Chou gives them a big ball of essence, IIRC, and they subsequently fritter it away discussing what they want to use it for.

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7 years 11 months ago #4 by Angeldude

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Arcanist Lupus wrote: But even then, the most difficult part is not in gathering the essence, but in holding it.

I'd assume that learning how to properly hold onto the essence would be difficult and time consuming by itself. Which would be why in Gen 2, the first magic lab class was primarily focused on holding onto essence, much to the annoyance of a certain siren.

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7 years 11 months ago #5 by Valentine

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Somewhere in the Kayda stories, probably 2 or 3, Nikki is tutoring both Ayla and Kayda in gathering and holding Essence. Ayla is a Wiz 0, and IIRC by the nature of Kayda's magic it didn't involve gathering and holding Essence, Nikki is explaining the basics to them.

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7 years 11 months ago #6 by Kristin Darken

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- Excerpts from a common contemporary book given to Apprentices of the Old Arts of Western Magick

Like any skill, some natural talent and inclination is necessary to learn magick. The ability to think in the abstract and strong mental discipline are two things that are necessary for the successful development of the skills used by mages... and they CAN be trained, but having natural inclinations that way obviously makes one a better choice of apprentice.

It's important to note that Mages... baseline, paranormal, or mutant... pursue fundamentally the same paths. The primary advantage for paranormal or mutant mages is the availability of Essence above and beyond that which is normally available to the baseline human. Usually, for the mutant, this is as a result of the evolution of of the mutant's ability to attract raw Essence from their surrounding (measured by the Wizard trait) at significantly higher rates than normal (the specific rate depending on that mutant's Wiz rank). For other paranormal types, the accessible Essence generally appears in either a Legacy source (they have inherited, through blood or other means, a stored supply or functioning investment system of Essence that they can tap for levels far beyond what is available to any baseline Mage without at least fifty years of effort) or through an object of Power (that either accumulates Essence on its own or amplifies the benefit of Essence expended through it).

The most important thing to know about 'starting' out as a Mage is that humans do not, by nature, accumulate Essence. Like all things of nature, we generate it as a natural process and it radiates outward into the ecosystem just like our body heat, our expelled air, and so forth. Some individuals are more sensitive to its presence than others, making them aware of natural flows of this energy that moves around the world in streams and rivers (the largest of which are often referred to as ley lines). But this natural, raw Essence isn't really useful to humans. Even the sensitive among us cannot generally make use of it in this natural state. It is too 'energetic' or volatile. Other species, like the Sidhe of old, are made of different stuff... and they are able to hold and work with this raw Essence. But its presence is almost of complete uselessness to the baseline Mage, especially the apprentice.

Fortunately, we have the ability to create within us a natural resovoir in which Essence can be drawn, filtered, tamed... so that it can be manipulated by our will and intent for the construction of spells. But this is not a simple task, especially not to achieve alone. The Ancient Order calls the place into which we call our Essence, the Well. The Well is there, innately, in all of us... but before we are awakened to our life as a Mage, it might just as well be a sieve. Essence might just as soon flow out of it as in... and there is no especial attraction drawing Essence to it. What is necessary to make the Well useful, is the Living Spark. Using Essence, we bring the Well to an energized state that draws Essence in and even makes it more difficult to escape. It does not, however close the holes in the Well that make it a sieve, naturally... only the Mage's willpower can serve that purpose. Once lit, the Spark will remain lit as long as the slightest amount of Essence remains in the Well to feed it. Should a Mage mistakenly drain all of his or her strength from the Well, it may extinguish the Spark... possibly permanently.

For the baseline Apprentice, the Master provides all Essence used for practicing the early Arts. This is because, even with a lit Well, a Mage is limited in how much Essence they can hold before it starts to spill. And when Essence spills, unfocused and without purpose, strange things happen... along with hobgoblins. Because this wastage can be very significant, baseline Apprentices often study for months on mental discipline and willpower exercises before a Master will even consider any sort of actual spellcraft to be done, and even then, it is usually with Essence provided in a storage device (wand) and only drawn forth for the purposes of the spell. Once the Apprentice has shown sufficient willpower, only then will the Master hold the ritual to light their Apprentice's Spark and gift them a small amount of Essence to use as a reserve (and to start the first steps of the Mage's efforts to invest in greater power).

Spark lit, the Mage will accumulate a small amount of Essence each day. As time passes, the Mage will grown more mentally disciplined and the amount of Essence they may hold in their Well will grow, as will the amount the Mage can manipulate at one time. Compared to the Essence drawn naturally to a Wizard ranked mutant, of course, the amount a baseline draws is minuscule. Wiz mutants can even draw enough Essence to spontaneously light their Spark and commonly spill Essence in 'overflow' until they have sufficient training and experience to stay ahead of their accumulation. Often Wizard Masters will have their students begin storing Essence into wands and other devices from the very start, so they have available Essence for practicing spells quite early in their study as Mages... while baseline Wizards have to develop all sorts of rituals and ceremonies to raise Essence before even being able to practice the lowest levels of spell craft.

Answer some questions? Raise more?

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7 years 11 months ago #7 by mhalpern

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A very heavily surmised version, when it comes to baseline and Wiz-0 mages there are 3 basic ways ignoring binding deals of stupid, they can start out, the extremely hard way which is minimally assisted, lighting their own well, the hard/ normal way- a teacher or outside force lights the well, and the easy with probable strings attached of legacy, The Green Witch and the White Lady (pre Gen 2) are notable examples of legacy mages.

Other wiz 0 factors have been demonstrated through Ayla, whom has a natural sensitivity to magical effects and an impressive resistance to certain magic prior to training with Circe that by all rights he shouldn't be expected to have as we have seen trained, paranormal mages fair poorly in similar situations. There is also the essence investment analogy.

One big thing that we have seen with baseline, wiz- 0s, and low level magic mutants is various forms of essence batteries, often gems, and the main difference between them and most mages with easy access to magic, is brute force verses finesse, with enough preparation, a baseline magic user should be able to achieve the same effects as all but the most powerful and skilled "super magic users" with considerably less essence use, if a ward is designed to use some of an attack's energy to power itself and stop the rest (something someone who doesn't have a large supply of essence would think of) provided a means to bleed off or safely redirect surplus, a high level wiz mutant would probably fair poorly in comparison to a skilled magic user who would look for a weakness in the ward, so unless they are really well trained and disciplined the wiz rating doesn't mean squat, other than to what extent they will casually use magic, however if they are skilled then they can be extremely powerful.

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7 years 11 months ago #8 by Kristin Darken

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No, sorry... you either took what I posted completely wrong or you are imposing your own perspective on the world from outside magick systems. In the WU, it IS possible to be a baseline Mage (or PSI)... but it takes a LIFETIME or more to become capable of doing the sorts of things that you see even someone like Kayda achieving in the year since she manifested.

It can, in fact, take YEARS before an Apprentice builds a sufficient foundation of Essence through storage and investment systems that they begin the process of studying spell craft itself. During those years, they are developing their Will so as to prevent the loss and wastage of Essence and pouring every bit of Essence they have into investment systems, ceremony and ritual, to acquire access to greater amounts of Essence once they are prepared to handle it without loss. Only when the student is capable of handling sufficient levels of Essence without the Master supplying it and without wasting it, will the Master move beyond theoretical spell craft into more practical training. That is the mark of the Journeyman... when they are no longer dependent on the Master for a supply of Essence to sustain their studies.

Having access to a Legacy or an Object of Power... means you are no longer part of the 'baseline' system. It makes you a paranormal. Having a Wiz trait to draw Essence to you, makes you a mutant. Baseline's have neither. And they cannot cast magick without a source of Essence... and they cannot acquire that Essence without the aid of someone else. Even if a baseline mage candidate came to the table with a powerful Will and mental discipline, with all the knowledge needed to keep their Well from leaking... they STILL couldn't accumulate Essence until their Well was lit. Something that they do not have the Essence to do (or the skill) on their own. Thus, the Master - Apprentice system continues even into the age of book/school learning.

It is an Essence costly venture for a Master to take on an Apprentice. Between lighting the student's Well and several years of supplying ALL the Essence needed for the student to learn the basics... some Masters NEVER take on more than one or two Apprentices in their lifetime.

This is why the easy attraction of Essence is such a HUGE advantage for Wiz class mutants. They can study freely, cast at almost any time to acquire practical knowledge, invest Essence heavily for later growth while STILL casting in the present, and not fret about losses if their accumulation levels are high. Like learning the stock market with a billion dollar trust fund vs picking stocks on a working man's payscale, you see?

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7 years 11 months ago #9 by Yolandria

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And also another reason why Mutant Wiz's are in such high demand. For both legal and not so legal enterprises. Imagine the power a baseline Wiz could gain if they could harness a mutant for the essense alone? And ones like Nikki... OMG! If she were to be caught and corrupted...*Shivers*

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7 years 11 months ago #10 by Kristin Darken

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Yes, the Sidhe 'are' magick, as we say. by their very nature they don't need to operate the way humans do... taming Essence by accumulating it in a Well or storage device of some sort before it becomes useful. Sidhe can draw Essence from its natural flows... or even directly from the sources. Of course, not all Sidhe can draw from every type of natural Essence - a healer would be hindered by drawing essence from a source of death, an Air mage would be limited by drawing from a source of Earth magick... and so forth... but where the natural 'flavor' or 'taint' of the Essence isn't a direct hinderence to the type of Sidhe and their magick; energy is energy... and they can use it freely, even directly from their surroundings. This is how Nikki is able to draw energy for spells directly from the life forces of things around her... or to convert the power of lightning thrown at her. A human mage trying the same thing would first need a means to capture that energy and then a filter and control mechanism by which they could tap it for accumulation or storage. Trying to use it directly would... blow a few fuses.

But yes, having a captured Sidhe tied to an Essence siphon would allow for acquiring a significant amount of Essence, as long as that Sidhe were kept in a location where they had access to a natural flow/source of Essence they were able to use (not all Sidhe are strong enough to grab large ley lines, etc) and as long as they were prevented from ceasing to draw fresh Essence (which would cause the siphon to just draw off the Sidhe's life force, eventually killing them).

A high ranking Wizard mutant would be almost as good... and in some ways better... than a Sidhe... because they're more controllable, in the sense that they aren't 'made of' Essence... so just draining them dry isn't going to kill them outright. The Sidhe might be better for more absolute drawing power.... but the mutant is going to 'last' much longer. As a nice bonus, you probably won't need to filter/convert the resultant Essence as much either.

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7 years 11 months ago #11 by Iwasforger03

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Excessively dark thought, but VERY useful for some thoughts/plans down the road for writing. Thank you Kristen, I think I have a new villain idea or two.

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7 years 11 months ago #12 by Iwasforger03

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Should Kristen's explanation be editted into the Wiki? On which page?

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7 years 11 months ago #13 by null0trooper

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Iwasforger03 wrote: Excessively dark thought, but VERY useful for some thoughts/plans down the road for writing. Thank you Kristen, I think I have a new villain idea or two.

I take it I'm not the only one to immediately note that it's likely far safer to use emotional, mental, and cultural suasion on a human mutant than on a reborn Sidhe?

Fewer arcane entanglements at least.

In some ways, I suspect the (Gen 1) Chinese government had a sweet thing going until the Tao took exception.

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7 years 11 months ago #14 by Ametros

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It strikes me that there would at least be different tendencies between baseline mages and mutants/paranormals in how they go about things. In terms of essence, the latter would all too readily experiment by putting it into practice, while the former would lean heavily towards researching and theorycrafting heavily. Baselines would have far greater pressure to learn the rules of the systems involved so as to not squander what essence they have, while the others might learn to work magic more intuitively.

At least at a basic level, the two groups make me think of the different natures of D&D Wizards and Sorcerers.

And from that comment about apprentices, it strikes me that should they be so inclined, Mutants have the potential to spread the Art to a considerably greater number of individuals than baselines would due to the available essence. Of course, quality of education would come into effect and should limit apprentices to a handful at a time, but the relative cost of apprentice investment between baselines and mutants would make them able to foster considerably more.

Your talk of apprentices then makes me think of the first baseline mages, and how they would have began upon the path. Being "elevated" by the Sidhe or other denizens of the Courts would make sense, but it was mentioned that early shamanic magic of The People differed from Sidhe magic. Could Spirits perhaps be the essence donors for shaman, and could it not be a group effort, with many spirits each pitching in miniscule amounts of essence to get a shaman started?

Seriously, thank you for your time and effort. It is appreciated.

7 years 11 months ago #15 by Kristin Darken

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It can go with the other 'Intro to Magick' class lesson, wherever that ended up. there's the version that was posted to the forums and the version that got included in Kayda's story when El and E.E. co-opted it from my original intent to post it in the forums. ie the lesson on what the Wiz rating means. That one 'also' explains some of this issue of how apprenticeship works and how baseline mages advance relative to mutants, just from the perspective of how specifically it applies to the Wiz rating. Also useful info towards this discussion if you haven't read it / don't remember it.

Added in spoiler below in the original lesson version, as opposed to the Kayda class version.

Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ]

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7 years 11 months ago #16 by Arcanist Lupus

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Ametros wrote: It strikes me that there would at least be different tendencies between baseline mages and mutants/paranormals in how they go about things. In terms of essence, the latter would all too readily experiment by putting it into practice, while the former would lean heavily towards researching and theorycrafting heavily. Baselines would have far greater pressure to learn the rules of the systems involved so as to not squander what essence they have, while the others might learn to work magic more intuitively.

We've actually seen a little bit of this, relating to Absinthe's hobgoblins. Sure, her pixies are more useful than average, but except for the one needed to control her glamour they are nowhere near useful enough to justify the essence for a baseline mage. For specific tasks, yes, but Absinthe likes to keep them around as pets.

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7 years 11 months ago #17 by Kristin Darken

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Mostly accurate Ametros... note though that there is not 'infinite' Essence available on tap. Just because you CAN create more mages, doesn't mean that the amount of Essence currently available can sustain them, especially if they are not taught 'conservation' like the traditional orders. The Courts used World Trees to provide a far greater 'standing' level of Essence in the world than the modern world comes close to. When the World Trees fell... that source of Essence went away and any active spells (the million little things that Sidhe society took for granted... their 'computers', their plumbing, lighting, weather control, defensive systems and so on... quickly ate up every bit of the remaining available before each of those things began to fail. And then, with no available Essence free... the Sidhe themselves, who needed Essence themselves to survive, collapsed in its absence.

For much of history, you can imagine this shaky equilibrium... some ancient magickal device finally fails, releasing its remaining free Essence into the wild... some other devices with lower demands come out of their passive sleep mode to claim the newly available resources... or a Mage somewhere in the world quickly shunts it aside to storage for a rainy day. When it becomes a challenge to find sources of Essence without ceremony or delving into the unknown dimensions, few Masters are willing to take on Apprentices. And in the contemporary world, when mutants are attracting free Essence at ridiculous rates... many baseline Mages worry about the unnatural expenditure of power... where is all that Essence coming from? And what will it mean for those who have to struggle to draw in enough to fuel their regular ceremonies?

If only there were still World Trees... that would make all the mages happy and far less concerned about those damn mutants hogging all the Essence.

Fate guard you and grant you a Light to brighten your Way.

7 years 11 months ago #18 by Katssun

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Arcanist Lupus wrote: We've actually seen a little bit of this, relating to Absinthe's hobgoblins. Sure, her pixies are more useful than average, but except for the one needed to control her glamour they are nowhere near useful enough to justify the essence for a baseline mage. For specific tasks, yes, but Absinthe likes to keep them around as pets.

This is a somewhat hindered example, in my opinion, because Woodwife is training her in a mere three days, so "wasteful" in Abby's case becomes the difference between Hawthorne, Poe, or not even allowed on a plane. They become essential because her glamour is so debilitating.

I think a more illustrative example is how the Gen 2 girls cheat in their morning or post basic martial arts routines. Morgana fries the water out of her large mass of hair using her fire magic, which she can use freely, while Bianca uses her limited water charge, occasionally giving her issues shortly thereafter, having wasted it on something frivolous. Bianca would benefit from studying to make a rune magic instead, like her baseline mage subordinates would have to.

7 years 11 months ago #19 by Ametros

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Fuel is indeed a limiting factor (and the competition and possessiveness regarding such), but there's a change in the wind, as mentioned, and it could have interesting effects on the more distant Whateley future.

In the interim, I had musings about how Agencies might go about integrating magical studies. Perhaps get a selection of potentials, (who might very well have the necessary discipline already) and teach them the forms to retain essence to be exercised over a few years. Then say, bring in a mutant instructor to kickstart their wells and accelerate their accumulation a bit. Teach them how to manage and grow on their own, along with some cost-effective utility spells.

Of course, that's a fair amount of investment, especially on individuals that might not necessarily be around to give a return on that investment...

Seriously, thank you for your time and effort. It is appreciated.

7 years 11 months ago - 7 years 11 months ago #20 by Angeldude

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Thank you very must Kristin and everyone else who contributed to the discussion.

Something else I've been thinking about is that, for the most part, Instant Runes are not a thing in the Whateley universe. That said, Generator and Ribbon might have the ability to fake it. Jade has been recommended to take a magic theory course with how many magic users she spends time with. The important thing is that, specifically with the use of rune magic, it's conceivable that they would be able to skip pre-preparing sheets with the runes and actually draw them in mid air our of fabric in Ribbon's case and probably something like glitter for Jade. (She does like pretending to be a magical girl.) Due to Ribbon's exemplar mind, she would likely be more accurate than many others even when drawing in the middle of a conflict.

Another thing about this is that Bianca's stories have mentioned that spells written in blood are more efficient than other materials, likely due to the mystic link to the caster. Would it be possible that those 2 could reap similar benefits due to it being made out of her own manifested matter for Ribbon and already having a piece of Jade's spirit for her?

One more point would be that not being constrained by a 2D surface could potentially provide an opportunity to layer multiple runes on top of each other without paper in between getting in the way. Would there be any benefit to 3D or layered runes that only people like Generator or Ribbon would be able to do?

I just find this interesting as I know of 0 characters who do use magic who would be capable of thing like this.

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Last Edit: 7 years 11 months ago by Angeldude.

7 years 11 months ago #21 by Astrodragon

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What do you mean by instant Runes, you dont define these?

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7 years 11 months ago - 7 years 11 months ago #22 by Angeldude

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Astrodragon wrote: What do you mean by instant Runes, you dont define these?

I'm mostly going off the TVTropes definition where a circle or rune appears in front of character as the spell is cast.

What I'm suggesting Jade and Alyss could do isn't quite the same, but would have a similar visual effect.
Though there are a few examples on that page of mages ascribing spells in midair.

Insanity: for when normal just isn't interesting enough.
All ideas free to use. You can probably make better use of them than me.

Last Edit: 7 years 11 months ago by Angeldude.

7 years 11 months ago #23 by Astrodragon

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There are a lot of ways magic is done in the Whateleyverse.

With 3 of the G2 group Mages, you will be a seeing a lot more of them in Gen2.

I love watching their innocent little faces smiling happily as they trip gaily down the garden path, before finding the pit with the rusty spikes.

7 years 11 months ago #24 by Angeldude

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Astrodragon wrote: There are a lot of ways magic is done in the Whateleyverse.

With 3 of the G2 group Mages, you will be a seeing a lot more of them in Gen2.

I shall be waiting for your next installment in that case.

I don't think we've seen Morgana do much magic outside of her transformation and simply conjuring fire.

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7 years 11 months ago #25 by NJM1564

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Kristin Darken wrote: Yes, the Sidhe 'are' magick, as we say. by their very nature they don't need to operate the way humans do... taming Essence by accumulating it in a Well or storage device of some sort before it becomes useful. Sidhe can draw Essence from its natural flows... or even directly from the sources. Of course, not all Sidhe can draw from every type of natural Essence - a healer would be hindered by drawing essence from a source of death, an Air mage would be limited by drawing from a source of Earth magick... and so forth... but where the natural 'flavor' or 'taint' of the Essence isn't a direct hinderence to the type of Sidhe and their magick; energy is energy... and they can use it freely, even directly from their surroundings. This is how Nikki is able to draw energy for spells directly from the life forces of things around her... or to convert the power of lightning thrown at her. A human mage trying the same thing would first need a means to capture that energy and then a filter and control mechanism by which they could tap it for accumulation or storage. Trying to use it directly would... blow a few fuses.

But yes, having a captured Sidhe tied to an Essence siphon would allow for acquiring a significant amount of Essence, as long as that Sidhe were kept in a location where they had access to a natural flow/source of Essence they were able to use (not all Sidhe are strong enough to grab large ley lines, etc) and as long as they were prevented from ceasing to draw fresh Essence (which would cause the siphon to just draw off the Sidhe's life force, eventually killing them).

A high ranking Wizard mutant would be almost as good... and in some ways better... than a Sidhe... because they're more controllable, in the sense that they aren't 'made of' Essence... so just draining them dry isn't going to kill them outright. The Sidhe might be better for more absolute drawing power.... but the mutant is going to 'last' much longer. As a nice bonus, you probably won't need to filter/convert the resultant Essence as much either.

Though from any mage of such power you inevitably run the risk of them cursing you. Even without any training hate can be made into a powerful curse. And drugging the mage might have funny effects on the essence they steal from them. The colors! The colors!! Jerico is that you?

7 years 11 months ago #26 by Kristin Darken

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Angeldude wrote:
Astrodragon wrote: What do you mean by instant Runes, you dont define these?

I'm mostly going off the TVTropes definition where a circle or rune appears in front of character as the spell is cast.

What I'm suggesting Jade and Alyss could do isn't quite the same, but would have a similar visual effect.
Though there are a few examples on that page of mages ascribing spells in midair.

writing runes and/or words of power into the air or ground is certainly an option for the use of magick in the WU... after all, casting is largely about focused intent; but many mages would consider it inefficient and wasteful. After all, if some of the Essence of every spell is going into the process of showing the spell 'process' in the visible spectrum, you are already weakening your spells or casting potential. It's also a tactical disadvantage, clearly showing anyone on the field where the caster is located. However... as a stylistic choice for a public hero/villain, a clearly visible display of casting magic could be part of an intimidation / shock & awe process to make use of a relatively small magickal capability (or just to minimize fighting in some way).

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7 years 11 months ago #27 by Angeldude

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Kristin Darken wrote:
Angeldude wrote:
Astrodragon wrote: What do you mean by instant Runes, you dont define these?

I'm mostly going off the TVTropes definition where a circle or rune appears in front of character as the spell is cast.

What I'm suggesting Jade and Alyss could do isn't quite the same, but would have a similar visual effect.
Though there are a few examples on that page of mages ascribing spells in midair.

writing runes and/or words of power into the air or ground is certainly an option for the use of magick in the WU... after all, casting is largely about focused intent; but many mages would consider it inefficient and wasteful. After all, if some of the Essence of every spell is going into the process of showing the spell 'process' in the visible spectrum, you are already weakening your spells or casting potential. It's also a tactical disadvantage, clearly showing anyone on the field where the caster is located. However... as a stylistic choice for a public hero/villain, a clearly visible display of casting magic could be part of an intimidation / shock & awe process to make use of a relatively small magickal capability (or just to minimize fighting in some way).

That makes sense, but the reason I singled out Jade and Ribbon is the fact that they can do it with expending essence for the effect. It's already one of they're abilities. Knowing Jade, she would claim the visual effect is magic, when in reality, it's pure TK and some glitter she gathered beforehand.

Insanity: for when normal just isn't interesting enough.
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7 years 11 months ago #28 by Astrodragon

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Kristin Darken wrote:
Angeldude wrote:
Astrodragon wrote: What do you mean by instant Runes, you dont define these?

I'm mostly going off the TVTropes definition where a circle or rune appears in front of character as the spell is cast.

What I'm suggesting Jade and Alyss could do isn't quite the same, but would have a similar visual effect.
Though there are a few examples on that page of mages ascribing spells in midair.

writing runes and/or words of power into the air or ground is certainly an option for the use of magick in the WU... after all, casting is largely about focused intent; but many mages would consider it inefficient and wasteful. After all, if some of the Essence of every spell is going into the process of showing the spell 'process' in the visible spectrum, you are already weakening your spells or casting potential. It's also a tactical disadvantage, clearly showing anyone on the field where the caster is located. However... as a stylistic choice for a public hero/villain, a clearly visible display of casting magic could be part of an intimidation / shock & awe process to make use of a relatively small magickal capability (or just to minimize fighting in some way).

There are some advantages with doing it this way.

You don't need a convenient surface to write on.
Its a good way of intinmidating people who aren't that conversant with magic, eg the typical minion.
It may not give away the spelll- it depends if the target knows it. Also, just knowing whats coming doesn't necessarily mean you can stop it. Seeing someone point a cannon at you doesn't necessarily mean seeing it is good...

Intimidation seems to be a meme, though - we see Fey and the Necromancer saying what they are casting, presumably to intinmidate.

Of course, it does take a little more essence, so its probably its more favoured by Wiz-class mutants (who tend to be a bit less minimal with their use of essence). Being able to see the spell diagram before powering it also gives a better idea of it being correct.

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7 years 11 months ago #29 by Iwasforger03

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At the same time, I imagine actually drawing out the spell physically is a major aid in focusing the magical energies. It might be a necessary part of people at a level of casting way below Fey or Necro to have some sort of symbol or diagram to aid in directing the energies of complex spell workings. If you had an illusion/light power in addition to being a mage and could use that to draw out the diagram of your spell instead of using essence, it might make your essence usage more efficient?

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7 years 11 months ago #30 by Kristin Darken

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Yes, if you are diagramming out the actual process... ie the flow of energy, or duplicating the verbal component of any ceremonial/contractual text. But that is rarely going to be a simple runic or something similar. It's going to be much more complex, except in the case of more or less raw blasts of power with some minor limitations/parameters attached. So you are doing two contradictory things at once - a simple runic pattern being generated in the air or on the ground... plus whatever is involved in the actual spell cast. It's not complex multitasking... certainly most Exemplar mages will have the mental acuity to do it... but its not necessarily going to make things simpler.

On the other hand, you COULD use it more in the way that Bianca / the White Lady does (or as several students using cards / spell slips, etc) ... in the sense that the runic written in the air is not the spell itself, but the trigger for a prepared component made in advance. This is, after all, what MOST spells actually ARE. Established verbal/physical contracts that convert Essence into certain types of power, manipulate it within certain parameters, and release it into reality to achieve an effect. A bit like saying, I agree to abide by the EULA, grants you access to play a game.

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7 years 11 months ago #31 by Astrodragon

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I see it as both, Kristin,
For the very simple spells, its the actual spells.
For anything complex, its the trigger.

But basically its not that different from writing it on a spell slip, except you arent using a spell slip.

Of course, a slip has the advantage it can be pre-prepared (the extent depending on the spell/effect), but on the other hand if you haven't brought the right spell slip with you...

When it comes down to it, a mage with a well-rounded education will have access to a lot of diffferent methods, and will use the ones that works best for them and are appropriate to the problem. Think of it as like knowing a dozen programming languages - they will all do the job, but some are better for some tasks that others, and some people like certain languages more than others.

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7 years 11 months ago #32 by JG

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problem with mutant casters is the higher they go, the more "rules" they ignore.

this makes them hard to teach.

and by "rules" I mran training tools.

I will use Diamond as an example: she is a WIZ-1. but she makes herself more effective and her spells more efficient by following the establidhed process. she pre-casts, uses holdouts and plays by "da rulz".

if a WIZ 5-7 took similar steps and preparation, they would be nightmarish. but the more "on-tap" essence you have, the more you can waste.

which means high level WIZ mutants can be incredibly sloppy.

7 years 11 months ago #33 by Kristin Darken

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Absolutely.

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7 years 11 months ago #34 by Katssun

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Follow-up question then.

How often will a lower level Wiz (1-4) trounce a higher level Wiz (5-7)? We saw it with Hekate and Diamondback, we've seen it with Jadis and random foes. It's not just sloppiness, it carries overconfidence with it as well. That they can just power their way out of anything by being "adaptable" when they're anything but.

More and more complicated and nuanced spelling can come from preparation and combinations thereof, as Diamond and Jadis know very well, and Bianca has learned the hard way. Viewed from a distance, Fey just blasts things. She's no different from Skybolt half the time.

7 years 11 months ago #35 by Astrodragon

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Wiz level doesnt correlate exactly with the amount of essence you canb store. Yes, usually a high level Wiz has a fairly big well, but its by no means automatuc.
A non-Wiz can have as much, if not more, essence available for the fight in his well and storage objects. The difference is, a Wiz can recharge fast, a non-Wiz normally cant.So if there is more than one fight in a short time, the Wiz has the advantage.

Also, Wiz doesnt imply imtelligence, while a non-Wiz mage is highly unlikely to get trained if he's stupid.In general, non-wiz mages are smarter.

Remember, P6 applies to mages as well as the military.

I love watching their innocent little faces smiling happily as they trip gaily down the garden path, before finding the pit with the rusty spikes.

7 years 11 months ago #36 by Astrodragon

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JG wrote: problem with mutant casters is the higher they go, the more "rules" they ignore.

this makes them hard to teach.

and by "rules" I mran training tools.

I will use Diamond as an example: she is a WIZ-1. but she makes herself more effective and her spells more efficient by following the establidhed process. she pre-casts, uses holdouts and plays by "da rulz".

if a WIZ 5-7 took similar steps and preparation, they would be nightmarish. but the more "on-tap" essence you have, the more you can waste.

which means high level WIZ mutants can be incredibly sloppy.

A real world example might be the bloatware operating systems like Windows have turned into. They are massively larger (and slower) than earlier versions,but are kept up to speed by the parellel increase in processor speed and power.
A High Wiz can easily fall into the bloatware + fast processor type of thinking, a lower level wiz who uses more efficient software can outperform.
It's not an exact example, but it gives an idea.

I love watching their innocent little faces smiling happily as they trip gaily down the garden path, before finding the pit with the rusty spikes.

7 years 11 months ago #37 by Angeldude

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Astrodragon wrote:
JG wrote: problem with mutant casters is the higher they go, the more "rules" they ignore.

this makes them hard to teach.

and by "rules" I mran training tools.

I will use Diamond as an example: she is a WIZ-1. but she makes herself more effective and her spells more efficient by following the establidhed process. she pre-casts, uses holdouts and plays by "da rulz".

if a WIZ 5-7 took similar steps and preparation, they would be nightmarish. but the more "on-tap" essence you have, the more you can waste.

which means high level WIZ mutants can be incredibly sloppy.

A real world example might be the bloatware operating systems like Windows have turned into. They are massively larger (and slower) than earlier versions,but are kept up to speed by the parellel increase in processor speed and power.
A High Wiz can easily fall into the bloatware + fast processor type of thinking, a lower level wiz who uses more efficient software can outperform.
It's not an exact example, but it gives an idea.

Yet another way real life programming is similar to spellcraft and wizardry. As a computer science student, I approve.

Insanity: for when normal just isn't interesting enough.
All ideas free to use. You can probably make better use of them than me.

7 years 11 months ago #38 by Astrodragon

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Angeldude wrote:
Astrodragon wrote:
JG wrote: problem with mutant casters is the higher they go, the more "rules" they ignore.

this makes them hard to teach.

and by "rules" I mran training tools.

I will use Diamond as an example: she is a WIZ-1. but she makes herself more effective and her spells more efficient by following the establidhed process. she pre-casts, uses holdouts and plays by "da rulz".

if a WIZ 5-7 took similar steps and preparation, they would be nightmarish. but the more "on-tap" essence you have, the more you can waste.

which means high level WIZ mutants can be incredibly sloppy.

A real world example might be the bloatware operating systems like Windows have turned into. They are massively larger (and slower) than earlier versions,but are kept up to speed by the parellel increase in processor speed and power.
A High Wiz can easily fall into the bloatware + fast processor type of thinking, a lower level wiz who uses more efficient software can outperform.
It's not an exact example, but it gives an idea.

Yet another way real life programming is similar to spellcraft and wizardry. As a computer science student, I approve.

There are considerable parellels, and its a useful way of thinking on it.

Of course, when developing software I never found it necessary to propitiate the OS.
Well, not OFTEN.....

I love watching their innocent little faces smiling happily as they trip gaily down the garden path, before finding the pit with the rusty spikes.

7 years 11 months ago #39 by Angeldude

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Astrodragon wrote:
Angeldude wrote:
Astrodragon wrote:
JG wrote: problem with mutant casters is the higher they go, the more "rules" they ignore.

this makes them hard to teach.

and by "rules" I mran training tools.

I will use Diamond as an example: she is a WIZ-1. but she makes herself more effective and her spells more efficient by following the establidhed process. she pre-casts, uses holdouts and plays by "da rulz".

if a WIZ 5-7 took similar steps and preparation, they would be nightmarish. but the more "on-tap" essence you have, the more you can waste.

which means high level WIZ mutants can be incredibly sloppy.

A real world example might be the bloatware operating systems like Windows have turned into. They are massively larger (and slower) than earlier versions,but are kept up to speed by the parellel increase in processor speed and power.
A High Wiz can easily fall into the bloatware + fast processor type of thinking, a lower level wiz who uses more efficient software can outperform.
It's not an exact example, but it gives an idea.

Yet another way real life programming is similar to spellcraft and wizardry. As a computer science student, I approve.

There are considerable parellels, and its a useful way of thinking on it.

Of course, when developing software I never found it necessary to propitiate the OS.
Well, not OFTEN.....

I once had to propitiate the processor by inserting an empty print statement. The whole thing would crash without it. Eventually I was able to remove it, (I think, it's been a while and it's possible I just had something to actually print there) but I still have no idea why it was needed. My best guess is timing.

Insanity: for when normal just isn't interesting enough.
All ideas free to use. You can probably make better use of them than me.

7 years 11 months ago #40 by JG

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Katssun wrote: Follow-up question then.

How often will a lower level Wiz (1-4) trounce a higher level Wiz (5-7)? We saw it with Hekate and Diamondback, we've seen it with Jadis and random foes. It's not just sloppiness, it carries overconfidence with it as well. That they can just power their way out of anything by being "adaptable" when they're anything but.

More and more complicated and nuanced spelling can come from preparation and combinations thereof, as Diamond and Jadis know very well, and Bianca has learned the hard way. Viewed from a distance, Fey just blasts things. She's no different from Skybolt half the time.

It boils down to the fact that low-power mages are PLANNERS. they have contingencies, GOTH plans and have mapped out how to react to any conceivable situation they can concoct.

like Diamond planning for someone like Hekate would be pure misdirection and tight defense, and let the powerhouse blow her wad and exhaust herself.

successful mages learn to play the long game, taking the very guaranteed slow roads to power rather than grasping at the next "get rich quick" scheme. which makes them incredibly dangerous opponents.

a well-schooled and disciplined apprentice with the right spells and holdouts prepared can be an incredibly credible threat.

7 years 11 months ago #41 by Arcanist Lupus

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It's like the martial arts trope of the wizened old master who can beat up armies of young thugs. It's not about how strong you are, but instead how you apply it.

"Shared pain is lessened; shared joy, increased — thus do we refute entropy." - Spider Robinson

7 years 11 months ago #42 by Sir Lee

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That's probably also one of the factors why Circe chose Ayla for apprentice, instead of, say, Charmer. Ayla does not have that innate facility for doing magic, but he's very smart, very disciplined and a planner. Raw power is not everything.

Weaker power fighting smart does have a few advantages. Guerilla warfare is based on this idea. So are the "soft" martial arms. And the entire ecosystem of "startup" tech companies, for that matter. The underdog is only guaranteed to win in Hollywood scripts, but IRL a smarter, quicker underdog wins often enough that people keep trying.

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7 years 11 months ago #43 by Iwasforger03

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This whole explanation for smarter not harder provides so much justification for a character concept i've been working on. Careful planning, contingencies, etc, because you just don't have raw power.

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7 years 11 months ago #44 by null0trooper

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JG wrote: I will use Diamond as an example: she is a WIZ-1. but she makes herself more effective and her spells more efficient by following the establidhed process. she pre-casts, uses holdouts and plays by "da rulz".

One could compare the various rules and principles of magic to leverage and mechanical advantage. With enough cheap power you can ignore such things, but it's rarely in your best interest to do so. Even then, sometimes the best spell is Colt 45, sometimes it's 'Feets Do Your Stuff'

JG wrote: if a WIZ 5-7 took similar steps and preparation, they would be nightmarish. but the more "on-tap" essence you have, the more you can waste.

which means high level WIZ mutants can be incredibly sloppy.

This is where a conventional caster can break the mutant's day. All that wasted energy is still energy. It may be tainted/colored a bit by the previous user, but the imposed inefficiency may still leave enough power for a more efficient spell.

e.g., CashPoint may charge you $50 to cash an $100 out-of-town check you found on the street, but you still have that $50 to pay off the legbreaker.

It only gets worse if the conventional caster has had to learn how to deal with various suboptimal sources, and the mutant caster has left a chunk of that lying around.

e.g., You take the check to the location your cousin Nunzio runs. He appreciates you thinking of family and tells the boys that $50 WILL be enough to cover this week's $75 payment.

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7 years 11 months ago #45 by Bek D Corbin

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Another analogy is that in many ways, Magic is like Engineering. A non-mutant trait Mage will study the blueprints of a building that they want to reduce to rubble, factor in load-bearing structures, points of stress and like that, and if at all possible, let the place to tear itself apart by taking out one single thing. A mutant trait Mage will just more 'exsplosive'.

By way of illustration, a scene from the movie 'Force 10 from Navarone' (ignore the rest of the movie) the heroes have to destroy a strategic bridge over the Mara river in Yugoslavia. Their explosives expert tells them that there's no way to do it with the explosives they've got; It's simply too sturdy. So a wily compatriot asks, 'What if we blew up that big honking DAM over there, just up the river?" Oh, that would work wonderfully, then you have all the forces working with you. So, a non-mutant Mage would find the weakest point in that dam and blow it as to set all those forces to the work of destroying that bridge; a mutant mage would just keep blasting away at it, and completely ignore all the side effects of doing so.

And mutants aren't the only culprits there: indeed, most 'super-sorcerers' wind up causing more problems than the really solve.

7 years 11 months ago #46 by Arcanist Lupus

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A lesson that was driven home to Nikki when Ayla figured out the ecological problems her power was causing.

"Shared pain is lessened; shared joy, increased — thus do we refute entropy." - Spider Robinson

7 years 11 months ago #47 by Iwasforger03

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New query on Magic and Baseline mages - Does the ability to use magic allow you to inately sense the power or essence level of another mage in any capacity, is that a thing unique to mutants/other powers, or is that something that's actually just a result of spell work?

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7 years 11 months ago #48 by JG

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Spell work, or native senses. Nikki can sense Ley Lines, Caitlin can see essence moving. Caitlin can perceive a "mage" but not get any gauge of their potency, WIZ-Trait or even how much essence is in their well. hell, by year two she hasn't even really figured out what she's looking at.

What a mage "sees" depends heavily on how they see the world.

Seeing how much power an enemy has is a crapshoot, because odds are they're projecting more to deter rivals, or they've dampened things to the point where they might appear only slightly more threatening than a baseline.

Think of "magic sensing" as less of a hard and fast rule, and more of a starting point for an educated guess.

7 years 11 months ago #49 by Sir Lee

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Remember that magic perceptions vary. Nikki see ley lines all the time; Ayla sometimes sees them; many other mages (even powerful ones) are incapable of seeing them at all. Or they may see the magic in a some other visual metaphor, different from coloured lines.

However, not seeing them does not mean that they aren't perceiving the magic; it's probably a synesthesia thing, meaning that your body has some way to detect the magic but your already-formed brain has to present that new data in some way that's familiar to your thought processes. There are probably mages who can "hear", "feel" (as in touch, meaning that they might perceive magic as a breeze, temperature changes or something similar), perhaps even "smell" or "taste" magic.

Ultimately, I expect that the synaesthetic metaphor the brain settles on reflects the strengths and limitations of their sensory ability to detect magic. Mage "vision" gives a lot of spatial information, but might offer a less subtle analysis of the nature of the perceived magic than, say, magical "taste." Other sensory metaphors might have their particular strengths.

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7 years 11 months ago #50 by Kristin Darken

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I've generally gone from the perspective that its a personal thing. Some people are sensitives, some aren't. Strongly sensitive people might actually 'see' or sense certain things... raw essence, essence in the well, actively manipulated essence (a la spell crafting in action), passive or dormant spell energy, and so on. Whether an individual happens to be graced with one or more of these talents, their existence is rare enough that there are spell versions of all of them. And you would no more begin casting a complex working with full ceremonial circles and warding without 'some' sort of magic sight in place than you would go out in the sub zero weather without gloves. You can do it, but if you do, you deserve the pain and suffering you get from your hands withering and falling off from exposing yourself to something you could have protected yourself from...

Also, such sight is naturally rare enough that external means of measuring Essence amounts/flows have been developed (the use of a light cantrip - or multiple - actively running as a comparison). We have actually discussed that while these things (innate magickal senses) aren't necessarily noted by trait measures, especially compared to the Wiz ranking itself, which is a far bigger deal; but if one or more exists in a mutant who doesn't have enhanced Essence accumulation... that the sensitivity to magick is denoted with the Wiz 0 ranking. This is why Ayla is Wiz 0. Not because Ayla can learn magick... because anyone could dedicate themselves to it, if they find someone willing to light their Well. But because Ayla has a sensitivity/awareness to it.

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7 years 11 months ago #51 by Astrodragon

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It's not like the human eye has essence sensors as well as rods and cones..
As Sir Lee has said, its your mind interpreting data in a way its familiar with. But this differes with each individual.

It might also be affected by your assumptions. For example, Witch Smelling is a common concept ion some parts of Africa, so if you are from there you may well learn to interpret it as a smell, because that's what your teachers do. You learn what you expect to learn.

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7 years 11 months ago #52 by Valentine

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My apologies, but it has to be said...

JG wrote: Spell work, or native senses. Nikki can sense Ley Lines, Caitlin can see essence moving. Caitlin can perceive a "mage" but not get any gauge of their potency, WIZ-Trait or even how much essence is in their well. hell, by year two she hasn't even really figured out what she's looking at.

What a mage "sees" depends heavily on how they see the world.

Seeing how much power an enemy has is a crapshoot, because odds are they're projecting more to deter rivals, or they've dampened things to the point where they might appear only slightly more threatening than a baseline.

Think of "magic sensing" as less of a hard and fast rule, and more of a starting point for an educated guess.

IT'S OVER 9000!!!!

I'm guessing Fey had no idea what Geomancer's powers are until Spring Semester 2007, because she never asked her to help with untangling the Ley lines from what Eldritch was doing.

Astrodragon, some mutant may have such a mutation that gave their eyes essence receptors to go along with the rods and cones.

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7 years 11 months ago #53 by Iwasforger03

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Valentine wrote:
Astrodragon, some mutant may have such a mutation that gave their eyes essence receptors to go along with the rods and cones.

Yeah, Maybe they do,
>.>
<.<
Maybe they do...

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7 years 11 months ago #54 by Astrodragon

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They might have such receptors, yes.
I suspect most people would be less than happy at the proposal of getting some retinal cells to see if that's the case, unless they have good regen.

I love watching their innocent little faces smiling happily as they trip gaily down the garden path, before finding the pit with the rusty spikes.

7 years 11 months ago #55 by Sir Lee

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Even if they have good regen, most mages would object at having their retinas biopsied just to satisfy someone's scientific curiosity. The reason being that such tissue samples could be appropriated by some unfriendly mage to direct spells at them, in a similar manner as, say, blood, hair or fingernail clippings.

But then, there IS a thing called a "necropsy." It's possible that a mage might will their body to medical research, plenty of people do. That might in fact be somewhat more common among mutants than in the general population, since mutant organ transplants might be inadvisable for a variety of reasons, while the lack of better understanding of the peculiar biology of mutants would strongly impact the mutant population. So mutants who would donate their organs for transplants might opt instead to donate their bodies to research.

Don't call me "Shirley." You will surely make me surly.

7 years 11 months ago #56 by Astrodragon

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Sir Lee wrote: Even if they have good regen, most mages would object at having their retinas biopsied just to satisfy someone's scientific curiosity. The reason being that such tissue samples could be appropriated by some unfriendly mage to direct spells at them, in a similar manner as, say, blood, hair or fingernail clippings.

But then, there IS a thing called a "necropsy." It's possible that a mage might will their body to medical research, plenty of people do. That might in fact be somewhat more common among mutants than in the general population, since mutant organ transplants might be inadvisable for a variety of reasons, while the lack of better understanding of the peculiar biology of mutants would strongly impact the mutant population. So mutants who would donate their organs for transplants might opt instead to donate their bodies to research.

Yes, but that never ends well.
Look at Dr Frankenstein...

I love watching their innocent little faces smiling happily as they trip gaily down the garden path, before finding the pit with the rusty spikes.

7 years 11 months ago #57 by Kristin Darken

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Ya... look at him. He's famous. Multiple movie deals. Books. Cited as a reference in numerous papers in multiple disciplines.

Fate guard you and grant you a Light to brighten your Way.

7 years 11 months ago #58 by Astrodragon

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Kristin Darken wrote: Ya... look at him. He's famous. Multiple movie deals. Books. Cited as a reference in numerous papers in multiple disciplines.

Yes, but if you were an Estate Agent would you rent him a windmill?

I love watching their innocent little faces smiling happily as they trip gaily down the garden path, before finding the pit with the rusty spikes.

7 years 11 months ago #59 by Kristin Darken

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That would depend on my storm and fire insurance coverage.

Fate guard you and grant you a Light to brighten your Way.

7 years 11 months ago #60 by Astrodragon

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It's probably in the contract fine print.

No reletting, no wild frat parties and no resurrection of pre-assembled monsters...

I love watching their innocent little faces smiling happily as they trip gaily down the garden path, before finding the pit with the rusty spikes.

7 years 11 months ago #61 by Bek D Corbin

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And do you know how HARD it is to find a good windmill to let these days?

7 years 11 months ago #62 by Iwasforger03

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Ugh, the renter's insurance alone is killer.

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7 years 11 months ago #63 by Valentine

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Bek D Corbin wrote: And do you know how HARD it is to find a good windmill to let these days?

That's because Stalwart keeps attacking them.

Don't Drick and Drive.

7 years 11 months ago #64 by Phoenix Spiritus

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Stalwart Is the perfect Knight, who tilts at windmills in the time-honoured way ... ineffectively.

7 years 11 months ago - 7 years 11 months ago #65 by Kristin Darken

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Thank you for the perfect segue... my theatre company will end our season next year with a production of the Don Quixote musical "Man of La Mancha"

Some other shows on the list? Diary of Anne Frank. A Christmas Carol. Macbeth.

Fate guard you and grant you a Light to brighten your Way.

Last Edit: 7 years 11 months ago by Kristin Darken.

7 years 11 months ago #66 by Iwasforger03

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Cool!

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7 years 11 months ago #67 by annachie

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And then, with no available Essence free... the Sidhe themselves, who needed Essence themselves to survive, collapsed in its absence.

So the sudden increase in the number of Sidhe would indicate ....

Forget Jade and Glitter, she could give herself an arterial cut and throw instant runes in her own blood.

7 years 11 months ago #68 by annachie

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Kristin Darken wrote: Thank you for the perfect segue... my theatre company will end our season next year with a production of the Don Quixote musical "Man of La Mancha"

My kids school are doing Spamalot next month, with my 2 youngest playing chorus type roles, and miss 16 working back stage.

7 years 11 months ago #69 by Kristin Darken

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Spamalot is a pretty adult show for a school to be doing. Are they doing a junior adaptation or just cutting it themselves?

Fate guard you and grant you a Light to brighten your Way.

7 years 11 months ago - 7 years 11 months ago #70 by Sir Lee

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Kristin Darken wrote: Thank you for the perfect segue... my theatre company will end our season next year with a production of the Don Quixote musical "Man of La Mancha"

Some other shows on the list? Diary of Anne Frank. A Christmas Carol. Macbeth.

Uh, let me translate that... your productions could be described as:
- A story involving people driven to cannibalism in order to survive;
- Followed by a story taking place in the dungeons of the Spanish Inquisition
- And then the story of a Jewish family that tries to hide from the Nazis and is ultimately found and have almost everybody killed;
- Followed by the tale of a bitter old man discovering he wasted his entire life
- Finishing with the tale of a brave general turning himself into a tyrannical, paranoid and murderous ruler, ending in madness and death.

Cheerful list. Tell me... is your director, by chance, a Goth?

Don't call me "Shirley." You will surely make me surly.

Last Edit: 7 years 11 months ago by Sir Lee.

7 years 11 months ago #71 by OtherEric

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Sir Lee wrote: Uh, let me translate that... your productions could be described as:
- A story involving people driven to cannibalism in order to survive;
- Followed by a story taking place in the dungeons of the Spanish Inquisition
- And then the story of a Jewish family that tries to hide from the Nazis and is ultimately found and have almost everybody killed;
- Followed by the tale of a bitter old man discovering he wasted his entire life
- Finishing with the tale of a brave general turning himself into a tyrannical, paranoid and murderous ruler, ending in madness and death.

Cheerful list. Tell me... is your director, by chance, a Goth?

You're the sort of person who summarizes The Wizard of Oz as "A young girl entering a new country kills the first person she encounters, then teams up with three strangers to kill again", aren't you?

7 years 11 months ago #72 by Mister D

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OtherEric wrote:
Sir Lee wrote: Uh, let me translate that... your productions could be described as:
- A story involving people driven to cannibalism in order to survive;
- Followed by a story taking place in the dungeons of the Spanish Inquisition
- And then the story of a Jewish family that tries to hide from the Nazis and is ultimately found and have almost everybody killed;
- Followed by the tale of a bitter old man discovering he wasted his entire life
- Finishing with the tale of a brave general turning himself into a tyrannical, paranoid and murderous ruler, ending in madness and death.

Cheerful list. Tell me... is your director, by chance, a Goth?

You're the sort of person who summarizes The Wizard of Oz as "A young girl entering a new country kills the first person she encounters, then teams up with three strangers to kill again", aren't you?

And also performs a lot of musical numbers about it all...

Measure Twice

7 years 11 months ago #73 by Astrodragon

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OtherEric wrote:
Sir Lee wrote: Uh, let me translate that... your productions could be described as:
- A story involving people driven to cannibalism in order to survive;
- Followed by a story taking place in the dungeons of the Spanish Inquisition
- And then the story of a Jewish family that tries to hide from the Nazis and is ultimately found and have almost everybody killed;
- Followed by the tale of a bitter old man discovering he wasted his entire life
- Finishing with the tale of a brave general turning himself into a tyrannical, paranoid and murderous ruler, ending in madness and death.

Cheerful list. Tell me... is your director, by chance, a Goth?

You're the sort of person who summarizes The Wizard of Oz as "A young girl entering a new country kills the first person she encounters, then teams up with three strangers to kill again", aren't you?

You missed out the stuff about the drugs...

I love watching their innocent little faces smiling happily as they trip gaily down the garden path, before finding the pit with the rusty spikes.

7 years 11 months ago #74 by NJM1564

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Astrodragon wrote:
OtherEric wrote:
Sir Lee wrote: Uh, let me translate that... your productions could be described as:
- A story involving people driven to cannibalism in order to survive;
- Followed by a story taking place in the dungeons of the Spanish Inquisition
- And then the story of a Jewish family that tries to hide from the Nazis and is ultimately found and have almost everybody killed;
- Followed by the tale of a bitter old man discovering he wasted his entire life
- Finishing with the tale of a brave general turning himself into a tyrannical, paranoid and murderous ruler, ending in madness and death.

Cheerful list. Tell me... is your director, by chance, a Goth?

You're the sort of person who summarizes The Wizard of Oz as "A young girl entering a new country kills the first person she encounters, then teams up with three strangers to kill again", aren't you?

You missed out the stuff about the drugs...

Killed over some shoes at that. And had a fling with some monkeys... Monkey. Fling... Poop. OMG! Flying poop flinging plague machines. Why was that movie rated G!

7 years 11 months ago #75 by annachie

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Kristin Darken wrote: Spamalot is a pretty adult show for a school to be doing. Are they doing a junior adaptation or just cutting it themselves?

Junior adaptation, though I understand that even at that they wont be doing a performance at the school for the youngest students. The school is P-12 so there are 5 yr old students.

7 years 11 months ago #76 by null0trooper

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annachie wrote:
Kristin Darken wrote: Spamalot is a pretty adult show for a school to be doing. Are they doing a junior adaptation or just cutting it themselves?

Junior adaptation, though I understand that even at that they wont be doing a performance at the school for the youngest students. The school is P-12 so there are 5 yr old students.

But they're the best audience! They'll repeat just about anything they hear

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7 years 11 months ago #77 by Katssun

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OtherEric wrote:
Sir Lee wrote: Uh, let me translate that... your productions could be described as:
- A story involving people driven to cannibalism in order to survive;
- Followed by a story taking place in the dungeons of the Spanish Inquisition
- And then the story of a Jewish family that tries to hide from the Nazis and is ultimately found and have almost everybody killed;
- Followed by the tale of a bitter old man discovering he wasted his entire life
- Finishing with the tale of a brave general turning himself into a tyrannical, paranoid and murderous ruler, ending in madness and death.

Cheerful list. Tell me... is your director, by chance, a Goth?

You're the sort of person who summarizes The Wizard of Oz as "A young girl entering a new country kills the first person she encounters, then teams up with three strangers to kill again", aren't you?

The Dust Bowl's Rejects?

7 years 11 months ago #78 by Sir Lee

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OtherEric wrote: You're the sort of person who summarizes The Wizard of Oz as "A young girl entering a new country kills the first person she encounters, then teams up with three strangers to kill again", aren't you?

You mean there is any other way to summarize it? Well, I let out the con man who deceives a little girl into risking her life for his own convenience...

Don't call me "Shirley." You will surely make me surly.

7 years 10 months ago #79 by Naldru

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Sir Lee wrote:
OtherEric wrote: You're the sort of person who summarizes The Wizard of Oz as "A young girl entering a new country kills the first person she encounters, then teams up with three strangers to kill again", aren't you?
You mean there is any other way to summarize it? Well, I let out the con man who deceives a little girl into risking her life for his own convenience...

You could have some real fun describing some of the other Oz books. Consider The Marvelous Land of Oz, which has two parallel plots.

A number of women in the Emerald City are tired of cleaning houses and cooking meals for their husbands and conquer the city. (The defenses were rather poor.) Eventually, this all-girl army is defeated by Glinda's (the good witch) army. However, the women of the city weren't too disappointed. While running the city, they had had to eat the meals prepared by their husbands and lived in the houses cleaned by their husbands.

When the Wizard of Oz had first arrived, he had to deal with Princess Ozma, the true ruler of Oz. He had the evil witch Mombi remove Ozma's memory and turn her into a boy. (Sound familiar.) When Glinda reconquered the city, she forced Mombi to restore Ozma's memory and turn her back into a girl.

ozmuseum.com/blogs/news/116474052-don-t-...-call-me-tip-or-ozma has a link to an episode of the Shirley Temple Theater which was an adaptation of this book. (You don't normally associate Shirley Temple with TG topics.)

7 years 10 months ago #80 by lighttech

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Bek D Corbin wrote: And do you know how HARD it is to find a good windmill to let these days?

not that hard--there are hundreds out in the cali desert area---but they look far different from the old dutch model!

Part of the WA Drow clan/ collective
Author of Vantier and Shadowsblade on Bigcloset

7 years 10 months ago - 7 years 10 months ago #81 by Sir Lee

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Those aren't actually "windmills." They are wind-turbine generators. A windmill has to, you know, mill. As in "turning wheat into flour." For that matter, many of the Dutch ones aren't mills either -- they are wind-driven pumps.

The reason why this isn't just a pedantic etymological argument is that wind generators and wind pumps don't have enough room inside to house a mad scientist's lab. A legitimate windmill, however, does.

Don't call me "Shirley." You will surely make me surly.

Last Edit: 7 years 10 months ago by Sir Lee.

7 years 10 months ago - 7 years 10 months ago #82 by Arcanist Lupus

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Stand aside!

If we could briefly drift back on topic for a moment, I have a few questions about the let line tap Jadis gets in The Widening Gyre. Does it provide a +2 to Wiz level for anyone who uses it, or does it jump everyone to Wiz 5 regardless of user level? Also, how common are such items? My guess is that they are like extended life - commom and varied among the high level mages, but almost nonexistent at lower levels.

"Shared pain is lessened; shared joy, increased — thus do we refute entropy." - Spider Robinson

Last Edit: 7 years 10 months ago by Arcanist Lupus.

7 years 10 months ago #83 by Yolandria

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Considering Artificier lvl crafting has been gone from the world for a very long time i'm guessing that the few that have survived to the modern times would be very rare and immensely expensive. So i seriously doubt your average low lvl mage would have them laying around. And even your mid to high lvl practicioners would very rarely be in a position to see them at all. Which is why the commoners/masses have come up with work arounds. Sacrifices,rituals, mystic batteries etc...So if word ever gets out that Jadis has something of that lvl of power...every mage on the planet would be after her. And dad wouldn't be able to save her.

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7 years 10 months ago - 7 years 10 months ago #84 by Iwasforger03

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Indeed, but at the same time, since it's keyed to Jadis... it's actually sort of useless if she doesn't want you to use it. Which means they'll die when Doctor Dad comes hunting for the bastard what hurt his daughter with the help of a Friggin Goodkind, and they'll die HORRIBLY. Cause the trinket they risked pissing off Dr. Diabolik (who is only B-list because of his casualty count, not his threat level or resources, those are A-list) doesn't work. All that... for nothing. It's a cold comfort. But it's the kind of cold I can appreciate.

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Last Edit: 7 years 10 months ago by Iwasforger03.

7 years 10 months ago #85 by null0trooper

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Arcanist Lupus wrote: If we could briefly drift back on topic for a moment, I have a few questions about the let line tap Jadis gets in The Widening Gyre. Does it provide a +2 to Wiz level for anyone who uses it, or does it jump everyone to Wiz 5 regardless of user level? Also, how common are such items? My guess is that they are like extended life - commom and varied among the high level mages, but almost nonexistent at lower levels.

I'd think that it works similar to a load-balancing circuit that reacts to the local "voltage drop", as the magician is powering a spell or recharging their well, by tapping the nearest suitable ley line (You can bet it won't reach out to draw from people or honeybees!) through the magical equivalent of a sturdy step-down transformer and resistors.

So it would be more useful the more powerful the spell or magician, but not prone to overshooting the Essence needed for smaller effects or less-powerful mages like a straight +2, or +n with a 5 total cap. Plus not all sources are the same, anyway.

For a Sidhe mage, like Fey, that can snack on whatever comes too close, it may not be so useful.

For Metro (fanfic), who was always taught to construct the energy construct/spell first, estimate the need, then allow it to draw from ambient - leaving the caster to eat any difference, as source or ground - a tap acting as a step-down transformer or line conditioner would be *awesome*; acting as straight booster could be deadly to the caster. Once he develops his well, or a sturdy enough reliquery, and adapts to dumping overloads to it and pulling underdraws up from it, then something like that might be safe-ish.

I wouldn't recommend using it at Stonehenge on Midsummer's morning, but maybe that's just me.

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7 years 10 months ago #86 by JG

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You'll just have to wait until Bek or I decide to reveal what Jadis can actually do with a Ley Line Tap.

7 years 10 months ago #87 by null0trooper

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JG wrote: You'll just have to wait until Bek or I decide to reveal what Jadis can actually do with a Ley Line Tap.

The important question is whether she got the "A" she wanted so badly.

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7 years 10 months ago #88 by Yolandria

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Indeed, but at the same time, since it's keyed to Jadis... it's actually sort of useless if she doesn't want you to use it.

Now...how many ways are there to subvert some ones will...Ask Sky/Cav. And if it's someone with the power to go after Jadis in the first place. I'm sure they will have a work around for the whole " keyed to" issue.

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7 years 10 months ago - 7 years 10 months ago #89 by Iwasforger03

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Yolandria wrote:
Indeed, but at the same time, since it's keyed to Jadis... it's actually sort of useless if she doesn't want you to use it.
Now...how many ways are there to subvert some ones will...Ask Sky/Cav. And if it's someone with the power to go after Jadis in the first place. I'm sure they will have a work around for the whole " keyed to" issue.

Gonna rewrite that...

There are a lot of conditions to clear to take it from Jadis and use it. The list of people who can do so isn't likely to be all that massive.
#1 - Know it exists - mostly limited to students, which means outside other Bad Seeds, almost nobody is probably going to have the criminal contacts to become aware this thing exists
#2 - Have the power necessary to successfully take this object from its owner, Jadis Diabolik, Defactor leader of the Bad Seeds and daughter of Dr. Diabolik, an extremely protective and DANGEROUS Super Villain who can take on the likes of Dr. Reaper and win. That his daughter should in and of herself be powerful and dangerous is a given.
Sub #2 - It will have to be taken on Karedonia soil, in air flying to either New York or Karedonia, or in New York (from a warded well defended house monitored by the FBI) or Whateley Academy. Most of these are not smart options for trying to take it.
#3 - Have a plan, an effective plan, to actually take it from Jadis.
#4 - have the ability to subvert Jadis's will on a permanent basis to take the artifact from her
#5 - Have the means of surviving the retaliation for your deed OR of not being identified with it (which is unlikely given what you took and the massive spike in apparent power that results. Basically - unless you use it so little you almost might not have bothered, it shouldn't be hard to identify you)
#6 - Actually be able to gain significant benefit from it after having expended the resources necessary to solve #1-5.

I don't imagine that list is very long. Granted, the people who DO qualify are probably REALLY scary people... who, at that point, maybe have about the same odds of just buying something from the Maidens instead, or coercing the Maidens themselves, which, if successful, would engender FAR more profit than Jadis's little dohicky.

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Last Edit: 7 years 10 months ago by Iwasforger03.

7 years 10 months ago #90 by Yolandria

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Well we already do know that Cait's location/identity have been compromised. And by a member of the Obsidion Circle no less. Lady Jettatura. And if she found out Jadis recieved such an item from Cait. I'm sure she would bring a ton of headaches down on Jadis/Cait. Espec since Jadis already beat her once at her own game.

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7 years 10 months ago #91 by null0trooper

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Yolandria wrote: Well we already do know that Cait's location/identity have been compromised. And by a member of the Obsidion Circle no less. Lady Jettatura. And if she found out Jadis recieved such an item from Cait. I'm sure she would bring a ton of headaches down on Jadis/Cait. Espec since Jadis already beat her once at her own game.

I thought it was the Troll Bride that Jadis beat?

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7 years 10 months ago #92 by Yolandria

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Lady Jettatura is the troll bride.

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7 years 10 months ago #93 by Iwasforger03

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No, no she isn't. Lady Jettatura features primarily in the Silver Ghost. She has a cameo at the beginning of the story where the Troll Bride appears on screen for the first time, but she isn't the Troll Bride.

Troll Bride is Nephandus's mother, a Trow, and a completely different character.

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7 years 10 months ago #94 by Yolandria

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You are correct. I got those two confused.

Countess Tilda Arvidsen, a.k.a. ‘The Troll Bride’

However in her conversation with Lady Jettatura she did tell her about Cait.

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7 years 10 months ago - 7 years 10 months ago #95 by Mister D

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Yolandria wrote: You are correct. I got those two confused.
Countess Tilda Arvidsen, a.k.a. ‘The Troll Bride’
However in her conversation with Lady Jettatura she did tell her about Cait.

I think that she mentioned the possibility of her obtaining a source of artifacts, but didn't go into any details. This form of caginess would be normal between SuperVill's, as what they don't know about, they can't screw you over for.

One example that occurred to me this morning, was the Frank Herbert book, "The Dosadi Experiment".

You can compare the type of world-view that the Capes/White-Hat's get, with the type that the Vill's/Black-Hat's get.

The Capes get the 4-Colour morality, and flavour-of-experience, as that is what it appropriate for their limited world-view.

The Seeds/Vill's/Black-Hat's get a more Dosadi flavour-of-experience, which is sadly more realistic, but also much harsher in terms of the consequences of their actions.

As ever, the implications/applications of the different approaches, makes for fascinating reasoning, as a way of extending the base ideas from the stories, to their logical conclusions.

This is also one of the reasons that i enjoy the rabbit-based-hat-pulls that some of the authors create here.

Measure Twice

Last Edit: 7 years 10 months ago by Mister D. Reason: author name wrong

7 years 10 months ago #96 by Iwasforger03

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Rabbit-based-hat-pulls?

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7 years 10 months ago #97 by Mister D

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Iwasforger03 wrote: Rabbit-based-hat-pulls?

The concept of "Pulling a rabbit from a hat" that is a standard corridor-spell for stage magic.

Applied to author's writing stories, this becomes the surprise at the end of the story, that makes the previous, "seemingly-whimsical" loss for the protagonist, transform into a win for them.

It's a technique that Bek uses to great effect as part of her style.

Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ]

Measure Twice

7 years 10 months ago #98 by annachie

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Mister D wrote:
Iwasforger03 wrote: Rabbit-based-hat-pulls?

The concept of "Pulling a rabbit from a hat" that is a standard corridor-spell for stage magic.

Applied to author's writing stories, this becomes the surprise at the end of the story, that makes the previous, "seemingly-whimsical" loss for the protagonist, transform into a win for them.

It's a technique that Bek uses to great effect as part of her style.

Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ] [ Click to hide ]

The most recent examples being JJ's reveal in "The Last Trump", and the Art theft in the New York Rooming House story.

And when done badly it's an arse pull.

7 years 10 months ago - 7 years 10 months ago #99 by NJM1564

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JG wrote: You'll just have to wait until Bek or I decide to reveal what Jadis can actually do with a Ley Line Tap.

Is there going to be risk of damaging the environment when taping like with Fay? Or is there built in limiters to prevent that from happening?
What do the built in power gems do.

Last Edit: 7 years 10 months ago by NJM1564.

7 years 10 months ago #100 by annachie

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I didn't think it was Fey tapping the ley lines that was the problem, it was her basically ripping the guts outof them because Aug was used to them being much stronger due to world trees.

7 years 10 months ago #101 by Arcanist Lupus

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Wiz ratings are exponential, so a Wiz 7 is several orders of magnitude more powerful than a Wiz 5.

"Shared pain is lessened; shared joy, increased — thus do we refute entropy." - Spider Robinson

7 years 10 months ago #102 by Kristin Darken

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Wiz 7 is like any other rating of 7... it basically says, Wiz 6 is the highest evolutionary trait package that we've categorized... and this mutant is capable of things that we haven't seen before or are unique to her, so calling her a 6 isn't really realistic.

But truthfully... Fey isn't Wiz anything. She's no longer human, she's a Court Sidhe Royal. The High Court Sidhe Mages and Healers were the focus caster in complex spells that required amounts of Essence that may be beyond the amounts that the world has recovered since the Sundering. They worked with entire conclaves of casters who contributed components of larger spells, passing these living structures of Essence off to the leader of the circle at just the right time for these parts to be slotted into place in the whole. Even a typical conclave Mage or lesser Court Mage would be comfortable reaching out and taking control of power than contemporary human mages would have a difficult time containing. The difference, of course, is that the Sidhe don't HAVE to contain it... humans have a far more difficult time manipulating the raw stuff in its natural state and HAVE to contain what they draw... so grabbing a ley line gets a little uncomfortable.

If a human mutant with an exceptionally powerful ability to draw Essence far beyond that state we generally attribute to the Wiz 6, or to manipulate Essence in its natural state, did come along... then we might rate them at Wiz 7. But that Wiz 7 STILL might not compare to Fey, simply because a humans (even as mutants) are not as inherently capable at magick as the Sidhe.

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