Question Sidhe and iron

When in the WU did the iron allergy come about? Was it present pre-sundering, or an after effect of things going bork from the spell?

ok, thanks. That clears it up.

Kristin Darken wrote:

Kristin Darken wrote: For dishes, they are made of it...

Oh auto-correct... Always good for a laugh. ?

Doesn't everyone use cast iron dishes?

For some reason I as thinking it was a kryptonite/Superman thing.

It seems like the alloy is important, primitive alloys have more of a reaction than more modern ones..

There was a book I read that suggested that iron was an issue do to the magnetic fields. And synthetics might be a problem do not to having corrupted essence but a lack of any natural essence. Pulling there essence out of them force-ably to balance it.

I always liked the theory that it was because iron has a very strong nuclear stability (though nickel is actually highest, iron is ranked 3rd). That theory pits science against the occult.

What I found so interesting in Gen 2 is that both Bianca and Morgana have an affinity for iron. Sidhe are one thing, and Bianca's makes a lot of sense because of the blood and inks. Morgana is still a mystery at this point.

While Imp might use iron filings to disrupt magic, it doesn't seem that the reason iron works to impede sidhe so extensively is a property of the iron so much as it is a property of sidhe nature/biology and the variants of magic itself.

So if Bianca was in the same situation as Fey back at Christmas, bleeding onto a set of iron shackles, would it actually have stopped her? They used mithril shackles on Morgana.

The apparent inconsistency is what makes it more interesting.

JG wrote: Lots of theories, but when the rubber meets the road, if you have to fight a Sidhe? Use Iron. When you have to fight almost ANYTHING that is dependent upon essence for it's very life? Use Iron. Iron is one of those things that grounds out and acts like a lightning rod. Only difference is you don't need the lightning rod at the highest point for most efficient transfer.

Unless of course they draw their power from the plane of fire? That seems to be the rule as far as Morgana is concerned.

Alan Moore pointed out (in the SMAX miniseries) that iron tends to be at the bottom of both the fusion and fission chains. Toybox killed a supposedly-unkillable dragon with solar powers by driving an humongous iron spike into him -- she reasoned that the sun operates by fusion, and iron does not undergo fusion, so it should wreck the dragon's metabolism.

I do like the concept of the strong ferromagnetic nature of iron somehow interfering in magic, and I'm using it in one of my perpetually-stalled attempts at fiction. But I don't think this model fits Whateley. For one thing, there are lots and lots of things in the modern world generating strong magnetic fields: refrigerator magnets, headphones, speakers, power lines, electric motors... for another, nickel is fairly ferromagnetic too, although not as strongly as iron; if ferromagnetism were to be an issue, strong Sidhe such as Fey would have a problem with common coinage -- it might not burn them as iron does, but it should make them uncomfortable at least.

Mkay, so space elves are still vulnerable to iron. -thumbs up=

It could be that iron and synthetic polymers act as a dampener for magic, and therefore negatively affects their biology. Baseline humans have things called telomeres that define how long our cells can continue to replicate. When the telomeres in a cell run out, that cell dies. When all your cells die, you die. I like to think that the good health and long-lifespans of the Sidhe are caused by regeneration of the telomeres and cells via magic. When they are cut off from their magic, they experience cellular damage. Think how a normal laptop can work even when not connected to the internet, but a chromebook fails to function properly when there's no connection. So, the effect that iron and synthetic polymers have on Sidhe could be explained by this. The effect would be short ranged however, and would extend to contact. For example, it is strongest on a skin-contact level (blistering, painful rash) because the field is more effective at those ranges. However, cutting off the connection to magic in one place could easily affect the whole body, simular to how a series circuit cannot function if one part is cut off.

In addition to this, the excruciating pain could just be that sidhe nervous systems are more finely tuned than others. However, don't shoot me if I'm wrong: it's just a theory coming from someone with a moderate knowledge of genetics, and more than 20 years of fantasy and sci fi reading. Just saying. Also, if ONE more person tells me to read the stories...there will be blood. There will be Vengeance. There will be killer robots at your front door [evil cackle commences].

P.S. I do actually know how to build tournament-legal battlebots. I'm actually helping a friend with one he's building for the 2019 season. We hope that we can be the first Australian team to enter the competition. I'm not going to be there after my stabbing injury, but I will be helping build the robot. We're calling it 'Cybernetic Scorpion. It's a armoured box, with 25cm steel plating, and a wedge, shaped front. The top panel has the main weapon (a pile-driver which uses hydraulics to ram a 10cm titanium stake at 65m/s. The stake weights about 5kg, so it will be outputting 325N of force into the target) mounted on a articulated arm, which we're calling the 'scorpion's tail'. The front holds a buzzsaw that can spin at up to 500RPM, as well as a pair of pincers that have enough strength to punch through steel. The plan is to use the 'pincers' to grapple a enemy robot, while the buzzsaw slices through the robot, and the tail punches holes through the armour and the robot itself. I hope that we're legally allowed to enter it, because it's pretty sweet right now. I would get you pictures...but apartment fire + camera/iPhone = slag. I still haven't got a new one, and even if I borrowed one...stab wound + doctor = 6 weeks rest and recuperation. Best thing about being stabbed other than surviving it??? You get a lot of payed holiday time off work. Plus, the ACFR will have finished their rebuild and be back in business by the time I get off the couch, and so I'll get some pay for that too. Count your blessings where you can find them I guess.

I was rereading s1 stories and Nikki's comment about sensing/being effected by Jinn's iron spikes got me wondering how she could tolerate the train, due to the iron tracks, wheels and car frames.

Cryptic wrote: I was rereading s1 stories and Nikki's comment about sensing/being effected by Jinn's iron spikes got me wondering how she could tolerate the train, due to the iron tracks, wheels and car frames.

Shhh! You're not supposed to notice the inconsistencies like that! Though it is a serious question. Just how would a being like a member of the sidhe deal with the modern steel world? I mean really there is almost no place you could go and not have some contact with steel in the current era.

Steel doesn't really bother her as much/at all. I forget the exact quote but Jade says buy me more steel ones and I can stop annoying you with the iron.

I remember that one. Yeah and doesn't she have to be in skin to skin with it vs LKH fey who if they are near anything synthetic or iron based they sicken.

Okay kool. What about synthetic antibiotics and such how would those effect one? I know she breaks out if synthetic materials touch her skin at all so I imagine that would be like dosing her with poison.

Well, sidhe are a different species, so of course they have their own unique medical requirements. Which they tend to tackle with magical healing instead of drugs, anyway. It might have been a problem at first, but now Nikki has the Court's healer just a phone call away, so she does not have to risk human-trained physicians or mage healers inexperienced with full sidhe anymore.

RoseBlack wrote: Okay kool. What about synthetic antibiotics and such how would those effect one?

They're probably no worse than alchemical elixirs. What you should worry about: whether an infection that attacks Sidhe can jump species. The answers to "where did it come from" may also be intriguing.

No I was just curious cause that was something I have seen elsewhere as well that fully synthetic meds won't actually help a fey but will poison them instead. While something alchemic can go either way depending on what it's refined from.

null0trooper wrote: What you should worry about: whether an infection that attacks Sidhe can jump species. The answers to "where did it come from" may also be intriguing.

Oh now that is something I haden't considered for my story. Yoink!

Essylt is of course non-canon, but she has a choker that has a spell that lessens the effect of Iron and synthetic allergy to some degree. I would imagine that there are possibly ways to ward against reactions to some degree, akin to putting on sunblock. It wouldn't grant immunity, but it would help to lessen the damage.

"Um, Nikki? Why are you covered in cow shit?"

"I am not! This is genuine 190-scat Mann 'Ure sourced from a very exclusive artisanal enclave in Wisconsin. It's a 100% natural protection from plastics and other synthetic rubbish."

"Sounds like bullshit to me."

"Hmph!"

Only the finest brass Perkins tractors! Then again...if Chaka is the one using one...it might actually work.

And it gets so much worse.

i was thinking of doing something along these lines www.deviantart.com/dpragan/art/Feytex-146993643

Katssun wrote: Only the finest brass Perkins tractors! Then again...if Chaka is the one using one...it might actually work.

And it gets so much worse.

Some scary stuff in that page. I mean, there's stuff there that should give even a BDSM addict second thougths...

Sir Lee wrote:

Katssun wrote: Only the finest brass Perkins tractors! Then again...if Chaka is the one using one...it might actually work.

And it gets so much worse.

Some scary stuff in that page. I mean, there's stuff there that should give even a BDSM addict second thougths...

And don't forget Pratchett's concept of Retro-Phrenology...

I shudder to ask...

Sir Lee wrote:

Katssun wrote: Only the finest brass Perkins tractors! Then again...if Chaka is the one using one...it might actually work.

And it gets so much worse.

Some scary stuff in that page. I mean, there's stuff there that should give even a BDSM addict second thougths...

True. Most of the electrical toys have been greatly improved on, but radioisotopes kind of violates most concepts of "safe" and "sane".

One of them looks like the basis for a tems unit that uses shocks to relax muscles.

How mighe magnetic fields effect a sidhe/magic? Something I'm gonna have a workshopper play with in my next story

Cryptic wrote: How mighe magnetic fields effect a sidhe/magic? Something I'm gonna have a workshopper play with in my next story

It doesn't really make sense to be honest.
Historically there was this point that iron was kind of the bronze age superweapon, when they finally got it hard and flexible enough to be used as weapons it became capable of cutting through bronze weapons and armour. But in most of europe iron was /not/ easy to find in quantity so those first iron weapons gained legendary status. And for the people of the time, especially the celts in ireland and the UK the Sidhe were kind of the biggest and scariest of the bad (seeing that they represented the capriciousness of nature).
Giving them all kinds of vulnerabilities, including to the new superweapon was not such a stretch of imagination (they also were supposedly vulnerable to consecrated ground and church bells for much the same reason). (in many cultures demons are ascribed to having similarly silly weaknesses that give ordinary people a feeling they have control over the scary thing).

Then again, you can go with the established canon that Ki is associatied with the earth's electromagnetic field and posit that high concentrations of Ki disrupt advanced magic. With the Sidhe being more magic than physical they would be more (lethally) vulnerable to having their magic disrupted than even high level wiz rated mutants.
(of course that also means that an MRI would outright kill Sidhe, so there is a little conitinuity problem with the adverse relation between magic and magnetism).

You could go with some kind of alchemical reason for iron to disrupt magic, which allows for steel not having that reaction since even if it consists mostly of iron, it is clearly alchemically distinct (same as silver, magically inert, and mithril, magical amplifier)

Erianaiel wrote: Historically there was this point that iron was kind of the bronze age superweapon, when they finally got it hard and flexible enough to be used as weapons it became capable of cutting through bronze weapons and armour. But in most of europe iron was /not/ easy to find in quantity so those first iron weapons gained legendary status.

Bronze is pretty damned tough, so iron weapons won't shear through the stuff like you said. Nor is iron ore, plus the coal or charcoal needed to smelt it, that difficult to come by in Europe. The relative scarcity of tin and copper makes the economics of outfitting an army in weapons, armor, and all the stuff needed to get army A to point B favor (wrought) iron and steel. Once you have the blast furnace, you can make more better steel faster.

JG wrote: But steel doesn't caise the Sidhe anguish on contact. Nor does bronze.

That does reduce the entertainment value.

Magic can be likened to a science in a number of ways, such as those mentioned. But ultimately Magic is at best the weird cousin at a family reunion of Science, and nobody can quite tell if it's actually a relative or not.

As for those fleshed-out magic systems in other fiction, I'm quite the fan of Brandon Sanderson's works, but he doesn't call any of it magic. Because to the people, it's all just natural phenomena.

I did like the Sword of Truth series. But you are correct, once you set too many absolutes you get stuck to some degree. That being said, magic could be viewed as a sort of science to some degree as well. But it is along the lines of a science where humans only know some of the "rules". A magic user knows that doing certain things in certain ways yields some particular result or at least a result of a general nature. For example, touching an elemental plane would result in an effect related to that element (fire plane yields a fireball...or fire elemental...or a burst of heat, etc.).

Where it diverges from science would be all the variables and unknowns.

Mage A does a particular thing to achieve a fireball. It is likely repeatable. But when Mage B does those same things it instead yields an explosion of fire and heat surrounding the mage. Why? Who knows, maybe the second mage is not attuned enough to the right plane or there is something in their DNA that alters how the magic flows through them, or they lack the power to direct the magic for some other reason... You get the idea.

Magic becomes almost an individual science. Each magic user has to tweak and adjust how they go about achieving a particular effect. But if they have the proper level of focus, control and power they can achieve that result consistently...even if their method would not work for anyone else. The same goes with the limits on magic, if you believe something is beyond you ability, then most likely it will be, not because of physical limitations but because you established a personal rule prohibiting yourself from doing that particular thing in that particular manner.

That would be my theory. It also would explain why a person with a focus on say protective magic would have difficulty with aggressive effects or why someone focused on deceptive effects would have problems with overt and flashy effects. Such a magic user would then have to find a way to break through the limitation or find a way to work around the limitation that does suit their individualized style (Absinthe with the kamikaze faeries for example).

Ametros wrote: Magic can be likened to a science in a number of ways, such as those mentioned. But ultimately Magic is at best the weird cousin at a family reunion of Science, and nobody can quite tell if it's actually a relative or not.

Until Psychology and Sociology stagger back in, blitzed on whatever they've been smoking from Linguistics' stash. Then it's "If you can keep Archaeology away from the knives and power tools for a while, we'll try to wrestle the schmucks into a cab."

From the science standpoint, magic is at most a pre-scientific discipline, like alchemy figured out a few things about the way substances interact without having a proper model for it. When they started building consistent theoretical models, it stopped being alchemy and became chemistry. It's possible (although uninteresting from a storytelling point) that eventually something (Pattern Theory, maybe?) will give magic a proper model for the things mages have figured out about the supernatural world. But we might be centuries away from it.

I would actually argue that alchemy was a science from the get go. As my text defines it science is 1) "the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment." 2) "a systematically organized body of knowledge on a particular subject."

There were set methodologies in alchemy. The processes were based on observation and experimentation. The biggest differences were the secrecy attached to alchemy and the limits of human knowledge at the time (try doing chemistry without knowledge of the periodic table...). Chemistry, as we know it is really publicly available alchemy with greater understanding of the limitations of the processes involved. I would argue that chemistry is the direct successor of alchemy.

One could attempt to draw parallels with the history of mathematics. Various individuals attempted to describe certain concepts in math without having the right type of mathematics to do so. Tisberus for example attempted to measure instantaneous speeds without having access to differential calculus. Alchemy was an attempt to examine interactions between substances without the additional knowledge elements that would make it repeatable and explainable, just as Tisberus was trying to do with instantaneous speed.

Now, to be clear, I am not saying that turning lead into gold is a scientific pursuit with any merit, but the procedures, experimentation and observation elements all show an attempt to codify the study, and that is essentially what science is, a standardized way of examining a subject.

MM2ss wrote: I would actually argue that alchemy was a science from the get go. As my text defines it science is 1) "the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment." 2) "a systematically organized body of knowledge on a particular subject."

That sounds all well and good, except that it is completely wrong. And the reasons why it is wrong is the rooted in the very reason why alchemy, in its various forms, existed in the first place.

In most cases, the physical aspects of alchemy were only the exoteric aspects, a just-story meant as a metaphor for something else entirely. Many 'alchemists' didn't actually perform experiments with physical substances at all, and those who did, generally didn't know the esoteric aspects which those actions were an allegory for, and were following a deliberately laid garden path set to keep the 'unworthy' from learning the 'great secrets' which were their intended significance. There were also some who did use the arts of retorts and alembics and such in their esoteric methods, but those who did saw it less as a study of the properties of the substances and more as a sort of yoga or Hermetic praxis - a form of moving mediation more akin to taijiquan than chemistry despite it being done through distilling and such-like.

And of course there were hucksters who simply were looking to get some duke or count to provide for them in exchange for them transmuting a pile of 'lead' (actually iron) into 'gold' (iron pyrite) some day in the future.

The point is that speaking and writing about 'alchemy' was usually used as a set of codes for describing what were actually spiritual practices. These were often 'secret techniques' which were, for one reason or another at one time or another, forbidden in the society they arose in. All the talk about transmutation, elixirs, the Panacea, the Universal Solvent, etc. was a way of writing and talking about it in such a way as to throw off suspicion about what they were actually doing. While alchemy itself was often forbidden, it was marginally less dangerous to be discovered at (supposedly) alchemical teachings than, say, some form of tantric ritual.

So, what, then, was it really all about? Well, we don't have an answer for that, because a) it depended on the specific school of thought, as several different ones - in many places, including India, China, the Khwarizm Empire, and the Arabic Caliphates - used alchemy as a cover for their praxis, b) they tended to only pass the esoteric teachings to a hand-picked student (after all, if you could teach it to anyone without repercussions, you wouldn't need to encode it), and c) alchemists who got caught tended not to live to explain what they were really up to, and those who did survive only did so because they didn't spill the beans about what was really going on.

We do know that many Islamic alchemists were actually Sufi (who were pretty much always a secretive group of sects, and usually persecuted by the official authorities), while in Europe, many alchemists were involved in either mind-altering substances, or sex magic, or both.

Mind you, for every one who knew the 'true secrets' which someone or another was using alchemy as a cover for, there were dozens who only knew the exoteric stuff and were following that to la-la land, and for every one of those, there were probably a dozen con artists who used a a reputation for alchemy to trick some minor noble out of a fortune in funding their 'research'.

It is generally understood that the whole transmutation thing, when it wasn't a con job, was mostly a metaphor for various forms of spiritual purification. Some did hold that simply observing the transmutation of a base substance into a 'perfect' one as spiritually uplifting in and of itself, but for the most part, it was meant symbolically.

I would refer you to the writings of Lawrence Principe and William Newman. There is also the evidence of the Stockholm and Leyden papyri. Not all alchemy is about spirituality or metaphorical in nature. Some lines are utilitarian and practical in nature.

Consider this :

Magic is like Physics but where some of the electrons have free will...

Magic is quantum physics...

Anne wrote: Magic is quantum physics...

And here I thought it was from undocumented regexs ...


Title text: We lost the documentation on quantum mechanics. You'll have to decode the regexes yourself.

There are also many different traditions in alchemy. Not just the surface and hidden layers. There is a great deal of academic debate about how they are related or if they are related at all. As I recall, most researchers break alchemy into three major groups (which themselves are broken up into smaller groupings based on region or era). Indian, Chinese and Western European are the most common traditions noted. Some researchers feel there may have been a pre-Colombian alchemical tradition in the Americas as well. Personally, I am not certain that the Islamic alchemical traditions belong in the "Western European" grouping as is commonly done. You get the idea.

Then, each had their own peculiarities. They were influenced by local traditions and beliefs (Indian alchemy shows a good many Dharmic concepts, Chinese alchemy is heavily influenced by Taoism, Western alchemy seems to have its' own philosophy that is mostly independent of the major western religions though it may be viewed as somewhat inclusive of many different religious traditions).

Alchemy was many things to many people and each one likely held differing views on the matter (to a greater or lesser degree). To some it was a practical thing, to others a spiritual thing, to some an allegorical and physical representation of something non-physical. It could be exoteric and esoteric depending on how one approaches the matter and which tradition one were to follow. The practical branch that led to modern chemistry is public knowledge, the spiritual perfection traditions, esoteric in the extreme... Then those that have aspects of each just fall into the middle to be muddled through by those trying to sort it all out into a nice and neat table that can be intellectually digested.

Hmm, that leads me to a thought.

Could someone use stored essence in an object or ingredient to achieve similar effects. For example, maybe Ayla goes through the magic course, learns about alchemy, but lacking a lit well might contract for essence infused materials to make his own alchemical compounds. It would obviously incur some risk, but if it was with someone Ayla trusted completely it could work.

Also, might some of the stuff the Artificer does fall under alchemy to some degree, or would it just fall under the broader magic umbrella? (Speaking of which, I really liked those stories and while I might not kill for more of them, I would seriously consider inflicting grievous bodily harm on another person to get my fix...just saying...)

I will be the first to admit my knowledge of magic is highly limited. Yeah, I got a ton of books and did research on the matter (the lead curse tablets of Greece and Rome are very interesting), but reading it is far different than understanding.

I do recall some traditions have a theory that each person has certain affinities and such, would that alter their essence such that it is more or less suitable for certain purposes? I would think it could (it might not, it might depend on the degree of affinity, etc.), but in such a case where one magic users' essence was say unsuitable for a certain purpose, they might make something of a trade with another person who had the right "flavor" of essence in the form of items or ingredients. For example, maybe the Elf types are more attuned to nature and life essences so they are better at that sort of thing compared to the average magic user. Meanwhile, maybe someone that is part demon has a strong tie to something like fire or destruction. The Elf might trade "life essence" for "fire essence" giving each a better functioning working of the desired type (say healing for the part demon and a hotter or bigger fireball for the same amount of essence for the elf).

Just a thought on the matter based on some of the reading and research I have done over the years.

Hmm, reminds me of an old motivational poster, "If you think you can or can't, you are right" or something like that.

Thus, limits in magic could be self imposed while a user able to deny those limits could, in theory, have limitless power (well limited only by the essence they could put into the effect). Similarly, Absinthe might, if she becomes able to somehow breach her current limitations (affinity for illusion, but lacking in blunt force type offensive spells) could conceivably overcome that limitation... Thus, instead of sending out kamikaze faeries she may, eventually, be able to produce a proper fireball without using the work around. If she then keeps that from becoming common knowledge it could give her a very valuable ace in the hole.