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Question Avatar test?

6 years 3 months ago #1 by Cryptic
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    • I think in all the stories so far people have found out they are an Avatar only after a spirit has taken an interest, be it by slipping into the person's hollow or a bond spirit pointing it out to their host (Danica). Is there a test an evaluator can perform to see if the subject is or not, beside's Kayda's wiggling.
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    6 years 3 months ago #2 by Kristin Darken
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    • Yes, but it takes either an Avatar or a Mage... or some custom built tech... to do the test.

    In general, tests to find an Avatar would need to be able to discern or measure the energy flow around a person generated by having a hallow. If this energy isn't present, they are either not an Avatar or they are, but have a spirit that is wedged into their Hallow so tightly that there's no leftover energy leaking out. :)
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    6 years 3 months ago #3 by Cryptic
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    • Cool, thanks.
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    6 years 3 months ago #4 by Mister D
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    • Also, remember that everyone, even baseline humans, are Avatars that can hold exactly one spirit, ie. their own.

    It's only people with Hallows that are larger that can contain more than one spirit.

    Classic example of this, can be found at the end of All Hallow's Ball.

    Another fictional exploration of this can be found in Wapsi Square,where
    Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ]


    It might be an interesting approach to try.
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    6 years 3 months ago #5 by Kristin Darken
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    • Mister D wrote: Also, remember that everyone, even baseline humans, are Avatars that can hold exactly one spirit, ie. their own.

    It's only people with Hallows that are larger that can contain more than one spirit.

    Classic example of this, can be found at the end of All Hallow's Ball.

    "Size" of the spirit / Hallow is a bit of description explaining something that isn't really a realistic explanation.

    Spirits aren't measurable in 'size' ... they are, after all, noncorporeal... you can't pin one down to its length in meters or its volume of physical space. And neither can you really say "this spirit is too big for this Hallow."

    However, it IS true that some spirits are 'too much' to be contained within some Hallows while other Hallows have the capability to provide solace for more than one spirit. At the very least, such measurements happen on upper planes where length, width or depth have no particular meaning. It's far easier to map the strength of a spirit by how much of the energy a Hallow produces than by size/shape.
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    6 years 3 months ago #6 by Valentine
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    • Pinball's brother was determined to be an Avatar before he found a goldfish.
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    6 years 3 months ago #7 by Malady
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    • Kristin Darken wrote:

    Mister D wrote: Also, remember that everyone, even baseline humans, are Avatars that can hold exactly one spirit, ie. their own.

    It's only people with Hallows that are larger that can contain more than one spirit.

    Classic example of this, can be found at the end of All Hallow's Ball.

    "Size" of the spirit / Hallow is a bit of description explaining something that isn't really a realistic explanation.

    Spirits aren't measurable in 'size' ... they are, after all, noncorporeal... you can't pin one down to its length in meters or its volume of physical space. And neither can you really say "this spirit is too big for this Hallow."

    However, it IS true that some spirits are 'too much' to be contained within some Hallows while other Hallows have the capability to provide solace for more than one spirit. At the very least, such measurements happen on upper planes where length, width or depth have no particular meaning. It's far easier to map the strength of a spirit by how much of the energy a Hallow produces than by size/shape.


    So, it would've been totally possible that Danny's Hallow could've fit Wihinape, but not provided enough energy to perform the feats that the canon version is capable of?
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    6 years 3 months ago #8 by elrodw
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    • Malady wrote:

    Kristin Darken wrote:

    Mister D wrote: Also, remember that everyone, even baseline humans, are Avatars that can hold exactly one spirit, ie. their own.

    It's only people with Hallows that are larger that can contain more than one spirit.

    Classic example of this, can be found at the end of All Hallow's Ball.

    "Size" of the spirit / Hallow is a bit of description explaining something that isn't really a realistic explanation.

    Spirits aren't measurable in 'size' ... they are, after all, noncorporeal... you can't pin one down to its length in meters or its volume of physical space. And neither can you really say "this spirit is too big for this Hallow."

    However, it IS true that some spirits are 'too much' to be contained within some Hallows while other Hallows have the capability to provide solace for more than one spirit. At the very least, such measurements happen on upper planes where length, width or depth have no particular meaning. It's far easier to map the strength of a spirit by how much of the energy a Hallow produces than by size/shape.


    So, it would've been totally possible that Danny's Hallow could've fit Wihinape, but not provided enough energy to perform the feats that the canon version is capable of?


    Referring to a hallow and spirit by 'size' is a gross oversimplification of a lot of bidirectional complex metaphysical interactions - the energy a hallow can provide to a resident spirit or spirits AND the amount of
    'energy' or power that a resident spirit emanates, which in the case of an avatar, gives that avatar the spirit's abilities and has to be contained/controlled by the host. There's also a psychic component - how psychically powerful is the host compared to the spirit - too powerful of a spirit (especially the malevolent kind) can possess the host, while too powerful a host could crush / destroy the spirit (e.g. Spirit-Chan).

    So trying to explain all the above (with even more confusing and more exact terminology) to a mother who's more than a little distraught that her little boy suddenly appears as a hyper-sexualized 'slut kitty' is not exactly an easy task. Saying there's a mismatch in sizes, while technically incorrect, is sufficiently simple as to be understandable by non-specialists and distraught mothers.
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    6 years 3 months ago #9 by null0trooper
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    • It sounds as if the match between the spirit and host is good enough ("just right") it could still be difficult to tell if the host really is an avatar.


    Of course, after all the discussion, I'm picturing a researcher pulling out a tube of sealed gerbil spirit: "Let's see if this fits!"
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    6 years 3 months ago #10 by JG
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    • and then there's spirits like razorback's, ones that aren't obviously there unless viewed under specific circumstance. Not all spirits are created equal, and the spirit classification system is, by and large, a Scientific, Wild-Ass-Guess.

    Most mages have their own particular methods for classifying spirits. Whateley uses the most common and least-prone to inaccuracy
    6 years 3 months ago #11 by Katssun
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    • elrodw wrote: Referring to a hallow and spirit by 'size' is a gross oversimplification of a lot of bidirectional complex metaphysical interactions - the energy a hallow can provide to a resident spirit or spirits AND the amount of
    'energy' or power that a resident spirit emanates, which in the case of an avatar, gives that avatar the spirit's abilities and has to be contained/controlled by the host. There's also a psychic component - how psychically powerful is the host compared to the spirit - too powerful of a spirit (especially the malevolent kind) can possess the host, while too powerful a host could crush / destroy the spirit (e.g. Spirit-Chan).

    So trying to explain all the above (with even more confusing and more exact terminology) to a mother who's more than a little distraught that her little boy suddenly appears as a hyper-sexualized 'slut kitty' is not exactly an easy task. Saying there's a mismatch in sizes, while technically incorrect, is sufficiently simple as to be understandable by non-specialists and distraught mothers.


    How much does self-image come into play? Both in regard to GSD, "available space" in a hallow, compatibility with a given spirit, and power of the host?

    Given that most mutants are teens when they manifest, and changing anyway in the very mundane way, they're likely to be more malleable. But on the other hand, you have Tansy, who manifested as an exemplar with a very clear view of what she didn't want to be any more. In contrast you have Jack, who is (largely?/totally?) unfazed about the change, and Danny who just witnessed his brother turn into his sister only a few months ago.

    Maybe Tansy is a special case because her esper abilities kept any spirits from really settling in, and letting her exemplar traits come into their own without external influence.

    But perhaps if Danny had been a bit more open minded, and less apprehensive and resistant about ending up as a girl like Kayda, maybe he wouldn't be stuck switching to Danica, and had plenty of room for Wihinape.
    6 years 3 months ago #12 by null0trooper
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    • Katssun wrote: How much does self-image come into play? Both in regard to GSD, "available space" in a hallow, compatibility with a given spirit, and power of the host?


    Obviously, it's "whatever the story calls for", but I'd expect it to have major implications for compatibility which has been stated to effect the stats attached to the power labels.

    Katssun wrote: In contrast you have Jack, who is (largely?/totally?) unfazed about the change, and Danny who just witnessed his brother turn into his sister only a few months ago.


    I recall reading the story about Jack's manifestation (I'd guess that JG wasn't very happy with how it turned out). Erin coped slightly better than the people around her, but not well. Long story short, Jack ended up taking the time to come to terms with his changes, just off-camera.

    Katssun wrote: Maybe Tansy is a special case because her esper abilities kept any spirits from really settling in, and letting her exemplar traits come into their own without external influence.


    For a 1st World Eurasian mutant, special case. One of the jobs of a medicine person or shaman is to help people get in touch with or back into a healthy relationship with their totem spirits.

    Danny's plight is a good illustration of why an ethical doctor doesn't attend to relatives except in a life-or-death emergency. Kayda sees a brat. Tansy sees a person.
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    6 years 3 months ago #13 by Sir Lee
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    • Re Jack: I don't regard "running away and living as an animal in the desert for an untold number of months" as "unfazed". He eventually dealt with it, but I think he's rather like Guido (Strong Guy) in the old Peter David run of X-Force. He once confessed to Dr. Samson that he was constantly in pain, but put on a happy face because he didn't want pity, he just wanted to be accepted.
    I suspect that Razorback still has a number of issues, but he puts on a brave face because he does not want anybody's pity.
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    6 years 3 months ago #14 by E. E. Nalley
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    • Sir Lee wrote: I suspect that Razorback still has a number of issues, but he puts on a brave face because he does not want anybody's pity.


    I think even JG would agree with me that THAT is likely the best one sentence description of Razorback ever written. Well done.
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    6 years 3 months ago #15 by JG
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    • Sir Lee wrote: Re Jack: I don't regard "running away and living as an animal in the desert for an untold number of months" as "unfazed". He eventually dealt with it, but I think he's rather like Guido (Strong Guy) in the old Peter David run of X-Force. He once confessed to Dr. Samson that he was constantly in pain, but put on a happy face because he didn't want pity, he just wanted to be accepted.
    I suspect that Razorback still has a number of issues, but he puts on a brave face because he does not want anybody's pity.


    And the winner of the most accurate statement about Jack ever is...
    6 years 3 months ago #16 by Kristin Darken
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    • Katssun wrote: How much does self-image come into play? Both in regard to GSD, "available space" in a hallow, compatibility with a given spirit, and power of the host?


    I think this is far more a matter of storytelling that any rule set in stone. Does self-image play a factor? Well, yes. It does... we have shown that self-image impacts the formation of the BIT. And it makes sense that avatars tend to develop along the line of a sub-conscious self-image when you consider that the spirit is doing a 'redesign' number on the mutant's physical and metaphysical nature as part of their symbiotic exchange. It's in the spirit's best interest to make sure the host is a 'good fit' for both the host's welfare and nature... and for pursuing the spirit's agenda. At the same time, there IS that latter part. Spirits bond with hosts because it allows them to act in the physical world... but WHY does a given spirit want to interact with the physical world? That's the part that is going to have the biggest impact. The spirit might expend strength to give their host certain benefits to win over the host... but they always have a motivation/agenda for being here... and that's going to determine what they need the host to be able to achieve. The more powerful and self-aware the spirit is, the more that's going to be true. Lesser, barely aware spirits may not even be here intentionally and just want to survive after having slipped through a soft spot in the dimensional walls (the sort of thing a water spirit might do near a pristine waterfall of a mountain stream).

    As far as self-image with Exemplar BITs... that depends more on whether the mutant manifests a 'blank' BIT. Their self-image might very well include an altered appearance. On the other hand, a manifestation may by more of linking a mutant with existing metaphysical 'data' and the BIT is already part of that data/map and the mutant's own input to the final result is negligible. This is more the case where you see the reappearance of Sundering era beings... Sidhe, creatures like Razorback, and so on.

    Maybe. Something like that... :P
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    6 years 2 months ago #17 by MageOhki
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    • Yep yep. I've commented before Hikaru is a chibi-Amaterasu. Why?

    And remember, Mamaeastu is a *doer* not a *thinker* in terms of 'science'/'magic', so she just might be an unreliable source, no?
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