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Question Magick Knacks

4 years 3 months ago #1 by Softdreams
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  • Hello,
    Lately I've been pretty focused on reading stories about mages, and I couldn't help but notice the many different ramifications of magick. I was wondering, if we were to take aside those mages whose magickal affinities are explained by very specific events, such as: Glyph (a curse), Natch (dipped in the Erebos as an infant), Absinthe inheriting some of her abilities from her ancestor, etc... Could the "non-tweaked" mages become at least proficient in multiple branches of magick? Can they AT LEAST learn one spell from the every different magick branches? (obviously not including Mythos magick, Sidhe ones, and other species-specific branches)

    Basically, I'm asking whether or not magickal affinities are somehow influenced either by internal (feelings, things you feel comfortable around/with, the area you find yourself in), or external forces to determine the specific kind of essence you're most likely to draw in? Are you limited on the spells you can learn? My very limited understanding is that mages (those with the Wizard trait, not the baseline ones) simply possess the ability to draw in essence, everything else is either learned or grown into(?

    I believe it's been mentioned that mages perform basic in-class spells that go with the class curriculum, so that leads me to believe that having an affinity doesn't limit your ability to perform spells belonging to other magick branches?

    Camille Anders was shown to be very adept at using shadows related magick despite having no previous training, although her story was dropped very early on, so we never got to know how she developed this ability... On the other hand, Hekate and Jadis have been shown to be very very versatile in their uses of magick, Hekate going as far as learning Mythos magick.

    "Solange was correct when she said that mutants with the Wizard power were more likely to have particular ‘tricks’ they could do without spending years working up to them. I had a feeling she was glaring holes in Palantir’s back while she said it. Mugwump said that Wizard mutants were more likely to have an instinctive feel for one or more general categories of magic, which was a clear misinterpretation of what the author had written. " Ayla and the mad Scientist: (Chap 10). Miss Grimes followed by giving a brief explanation as to why what Mugwump said is wrong... I feel as if my reading comprehension is very low because to me it sounds like Mugwump just paraphrased what Tansy said. Does anybody have a different take on it?

    Also, just slipping this little question in so I won't have make an entirely new thread to have it answered; Could any mage learn how to control their hobgoblins as well as Absinthe?
    4 years 3 months ago #2 by Kristin Darken
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  • controlling hobgoblins is not actually possible. not by anyone, include Absinthe. Hobgoblins are, by nature, uncontrollable... they are, after all, a physical manifestation of uncontrolled Essence. So, no... you cannot actually have control over hobgoblins.

    BUT

    Can you learn how to make animated physical critters that look like hobgoblins to the untrained eye? Why yes... you could. Could you then develop skill in sustaining and manipulating these manifestations? Yes, yes... you could do that too.



    ---
    As to the more general 'mage' oriented question.

    You should note that you're conflating a number of different concepts here to compare these characters as ones with different affinities. Affinity would generally explain the ease of working of a particular 'flavor' of Essence over another. For instance, a mage with an affinity for Fire Essence will find it far easier to use and develop spells and effects that are based on Fire. Whether that is simply tossing around firebolts and fireballs... or Healing through the use of 'burning out the damaged or sick tissue and cauterizing wounds.

    On the other hand, there are different 'systems' of magick. These are more about where and how Essence is gathered, how spells are constructed, and what is done to 'clean up' afterwards. Whateley mostly teaches traditional witchcraft and Qabbalistic High Magick. These two schools or system of spellcasting cover a significant majority of Western magick. When Chou needed it, they added some Taoist magick... and for Kayda, they added some shamanic classwork. You could probably add Sidhe or pre-Sundering Court magicks and Mythos to this list of systems though obviously, neither is taught at Whateley (though some texts might be found in the library stacks).

    And then there are classes or schools of magick which is more about what the purpose of the magic is. Such as necromancy, summoning, transmutation, enchanting, and so forth.


    Schools are the most 'choice' oriented and sticking heavily to a school only really means that you get better at learning or developing new spells of that school because you are familiar with how those types of spells work

    Most systems of magick operate using specific 'laws' and techniques. They will typically have them own selection of spells within each school, but often have certain Essence types and spell schools that they do not work with at all. Getting better at a given school will make you better at all things within its scope... and less likely to use or work with those outside of it.

    Affinities? These are generally not a matter of choice. Either some special event or condition of your birth or manifestation makes it possible and good or bad, you're stuck with that probably permanently.

    Other things are just 'techniques' and while most story characters seem to have completely unique ways of casting when we show combat finales and such... those are mostly 'external' to the actual craft they use. holding and triggering methods. most of them still studied the same systems of magicks, learned Essence gathering/control and spell semantics/crafting from the same teachers ... often in the same classroom.

    Fate guard you and grant you a Light to brighten your Way.
    4 years 3 months ago #3 by Softdreams
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  • Thank you, Kristin! That cleared up quite a few doubts I had! Somehow I think I might've found out what Pern truly is through your explanation about hobgoblins and magick manifestations!

    Oh! That explains a lot, I was conflating affinities with the many schools of magick. So, basically an affinity makes it easier for you to gather and work with a certain flavor of essence? But, would it be impossible for the mage to work with other "flavors" of essence? Or does it just make the mage more in-tuned with that certain essence "flavor"?

    Okay, I realized something shortly after I started this thread, it's possible to work different kind of spells using different essence "flavors", I mean with fire essence you could make illusions made out fire, healing spells, fire barriers, etc...! Foxfire might be an example of this, she's more in-tuned with fire essence while Lifeline works better with "vital" essence. (Am I wrong?)

    So basically, mages have a tendency for adhering to a certain school of magick, but doing so only means they grow within that certain field which inevitably leads to them sticking to that certain school, but that does not mean they cannot perform spells outside of that school of magick(?
    4 years 3 months ago #4 by Astrodragon
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  • Having an affinity or preference for one type of magic or spells doesnt mean you cant use anything else.
    In fact one of the things they teach in class is a range of spells, because kids who have a natural spell or few tend to try and use that for everything, and that doesnt work well.
    It does mean that is easier to use something you have an affinity for, but it doesnt prevent you using other effects. You'd likely end up specialising in that area, but a well-rounded mage has a large range of spells for all occasions.

    I love watching their innocent little faces smiling happily as they trip gaily down the garden path, before finding the pit with the rusty spikes.
    4 years 2 months ago - 4 years 2 months ago #5 by Morpheus
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  • Absinthe's hobgoblin situation is rather unique and is entirely due to some of the magic she inherited from Vauldrene. Because of this, when Absinthe releases uncontrolled essence, instead of coming out as a normal hobgoblin it runs through a form of template first, giving them their standardized form and leaving them connected to her in ways that she can use. At this point, they're more like magical constructs than true hobgoblins. There is no reason that a skilled enough mage couldn't intentionally create their own form of template to get similar results, but in most cases...why bother?

    The waking world is but a dream.
    Last Edit: 4 years 2 months ago by Morpheus.
    4 years 2 months ago #6 by Softdreams
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  • Thank you so much for answering!

    So, affinities/preferences don't limit the types of magick/spells you can work with! That's good to know!!! Although, many of my doubts arise from the concept of "natural spells", which is what I think we saw Camille Anders do, my very VERY limited knowledge on mages (those with the Wiz trait) is that their mutant trait only grants them essence gathering abilities, and an exemplar mental package for the lucky ones, so, I was wondering how they could develop these spells without prior training.
    4 years 2 months ago #7 by Softdreams
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  • Thank you so much for answering, Morpheus! I'm a big BIG fan of your work!

    Your answer has confirmed one of my theories on how Absinthe's "hobgoblins" work, they're basically magick manifestations with a template imposed on them! Uhm, I personally, consider this ability to be very useful, Absinthe's story has opened my eyes to an entirely new realm of possibilities, for that I'm thankful!

    I'm looking forward for more stories about Absinthe and Porcelain, they've both become a part of my favorite characters! Whenever I get a chance I go and re-read Absinthe's stories, they're GENIUS! Also, your way of explaining magick through Absinthe's eyes (not to mention Glyph) is amazing, and I won't even get started on Porcelain... I'd have to type up more than ten paragraphs to even get my appreciation accross.
    4 years 2 months ago #8 by Softdreams
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  • Okay so, mutants with a Wizard trait, very much like energizers and manifestors are connected to a source of energy. Fey, as a Sidhe, is able to gather essence from multiple different sources with little to no effort.

    Wizards who are naturally inclined to working with a particular type of essence, can they perform spells to tap into other energy sources? For example: A wizard who has an affinity for working with water essence could cast a spell to perform fire/earth essence related spells? Or cast a spell to convert raw energy from other sources into usable essence?

    First year/Freshman mages are usually taught many different spells to gather essence more easily/from many different sources, are these spells related to what I said above?

    Is there some sort of "generalized" essence?

    What exactly are natural spells?
    4 years 2 months ago #9 by Astrodragon
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  • Softdreams wrote: Okay so, mutants with a Wizard trait, very much like energizers and manifestors are connected to a source of energy. Fey, as a Sidhe, is able to gather essence from multiple different sources with little to no effort.

    Wizards who are naturally inclined to working with a particular type of essence, can they perform spells to tap into other energy sources? For example: A wizard who has an affinity for working with water essence could cast a spell to perform fire/earth essence related spells? Or cast a spell to convert raw energy from other sources into usable essence?

    First year/Freshman mages are usually taught many different spells to gather essence more easily/from many different sources, are these spells related to what I said above?

    Is there some sort of "generalized" essence?

    What exactly are natural spells?


    I think you are misunderstanding the classes. They don't teach how to acquire essence from different sources, they teach exercised to reduce the loss of essence and possible to increase the efficiency of gathering it. very few wiz-class get essence from more then one source. Fey is a Wiz-7 shdhe class, you really shouldn't transfer what she does to anyone else.

    Mages who absorb essence can store it in two main ways; in their well, or in storage of some sort. The advantage of your well is you have instant availability and can use it for anything. But there is a reason for using a specific type of essence - for example, if you want to cast a fireball, using fire based essence is more efficient. An experienced mage will have their well essence, probably a good store of the type they gather naturally, and smaller amounts of types they've traded for. Think of it as having a range of tools, its better you use the correct one, but not essential, it just gives the best results.
    You could use that fire essence to cast a water spell, but it would not work as well and use more essence. The more different the essence types, the greater the inefficiency. You can hammer a nail with a screwdriver, but a hammer works better. One of the advantages human mages have is that they are generalists. Most mages do a lot of trading of essence in order to get a more efficient power source.

    I love watching their innocent little faces smiling happily as they trip gaily down the garden path, before finding the pit with the rusty spikes.
    4 years 2 months ago #10 by null0trooper
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  • Astrodragon wrote: I think you are misunderstanding the classes. They don't teach how to acquire essence from different sources, they teach exercised to reduce the loss of essence and possible to increase the efficiency of gathering it. very few wiz-class get essence from more then one source. Fey is a Wiz-7 shdhe class, you really shouldn't transfer what she does to anyone else.


    I think it was Lifeline, not Fey, who was considering Urban Essence Gathering 212. ("Even Murphy's Law Has Loopholes")

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    4 years 2 months ago #11 by Astrodragon
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  • The thing is, there is a big difference between the way a Wiz mutant gathers essence and the way a normal mage does. The thing that gives the Wiz their advantage is they have a mutation which allows them to gather essence from an external source naturally.

    Now a normal mage has to acquire essence from all sorts of sources, many of which are inefficient, because they don't get the freebie, if they want a substantial amount of essence. They don't have any choice.
    While a Wiz could do this, why would they bother to do so? While I can see a Wiz learning to gather essence for a very specific reason, it would have to be worth all that investment.

    I love watching their innocent little faces smiling happily as they trip gaily down the garden path, before finding the pit with the rusty spikes.
    4 years 2 months ago #12 by Softdreams
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  • Thanks for answering!

    That part I do understand, I mean, why go through the trouble? But my question is mostly geared towards versatility. Take Morgana as an example; she is a wizard attuned to the fire plane, but she has used water/light runes in Magic lab, my question is... How would these mages attuned to a certain element/plane etc... Perform spells that fall outside of that essence type?
    4 years 2 months ago #13 by Astrodragon
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  • Softdreams wrote: Thanks for answering!

    That part I do understand, I mean, why go through the trouble? But my question is mostly geared towards versatility. Take Morgana as an example; she is a wizard attuned to the fire plane, but she has used water/light runes in Magic lab, my question is... How would these mages attuned to a certain element/plane etc... Perform spells that fall outside of that essence type?


    In exactly the same way Morgana does, after all she has a strong attunement to the fire plane.

    I love watching their innocent little faces smiling happily as they trip gaily down the garden path, before finding the pit with the rusty spikes.
    4 years 2 months ago #14 by Kristin Darken
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  • There are a few parts to answering that.

    One is that yes, it is more efficient to use Fire attuned Essence in Fire spells. It is NOT however, easier for a mage to naturally hold Fire Essence. A Mage's Well is a natural filter that 'tames' raw Essence and various sorts of tainted Essences over time. Yes, a Mage with a specific affinity or mutations might hold Essence that is more Fire than another... or more Life... but generally in 'subtle' levels, not to the degree of say what you would find from an Elemental world. Exceptions exist... Morganna is drawing Essence from an Elemental Fire plane... but note what it does to her ability to cast and handle magick on a regular basis. She has to deal with those disruptions and add variations into spells that would work fine for others. Her nature allows her to hold that Essence... most Mages could not do so without repercussions.

    Two... spells are naturally designed to account for this. An inefficient super simple Firebolt spell is going to be more neutral Essence based magick than it is 'fire'. It's basically pyrokinesis applied to a small ball of ectoplasm or conjured flammable materials. You don't need elemental Fire for that. On the other hand, the Elemental Fire version is going to do a hella lot more damage. This would be a Firebolt with all the weight of the nature of Fire behind it. To achieve that, you are probably going to need Fire Essence instead of the normal mage stuff. But that doesn't mean you're carry around a storage ring with Fire Essence in it (though you CAN) or risking the repercussions of holding it naturally in that state (though that too is possible, if unwise).

    Instead, smart mages down through the ages have built 'conversion engines' in hidden places that they can feed natural essence in to in exchange for certain other types. They have also made contact with immortal and ancient beings of power who live in places like the plane of Fire who are happy to make quick exchanges of Fire Essence (abundant and cheap to acquire in the realms of Fire) for neutral refined Essence from the physical realms (hard to get). These quick conversions are worked into the process of the casting of spells and the Mage simply feeds in neutral Essence and the appropriate special Essence is exchanged in the process.

    This is why the most powerful mages are those with decades (and centuries) of study. Even though a young mutant Wizard can throw massive amounts of Essence into a spell, they are still 'unknowns' to these ancient beings. And like walking into a new Comic book shop the first time, the guys behind the counter aren't going to mention that someone just brought in a box of a full run of a title you collect and is looking for a quick sell and the shop has hit its 'buy limit' for the month. They'll hold that deal for the guy that's been a daily visitor for years who will be in later in the evening. You have to study the lore. Work out enough of the details of old spells to find the parts that reference conversions to allow you to mix and match. You'll have to learn which ones have limits and special conditions so you don't try to convert in the midst of a complex spell and suddenly get the wrong thing. And so forth.

    But remember... most human (and even mutant) mages are typically working with neutral / tamed Essence. So human spellcraft tends to operate using that Essence. Just as Sidhe magick was designed to work with the more 'raw' Essence of the World Trees and Ley Lines... and Elementals tend to default to magicks that use their own sort of Essence. A human can't cast Sidhe magick without filters or conversions.

    One of the best examples we have of dealing with spells and Essence of sorts that aren't natural to us... is mythos. Extreme case... but same logic. Fire magic and Essence at its most 'pure' can be as bad for a human as mythos... but Fire IS still a natural part of life in the physical realms. So as long as we don't delve too deep, it isn't outside our grasp. But nothing about mythos is 'natural' to life in the physical world (or any of the realms we operate in).

    Fate guard you and grant you a Light to brighten your Way.
    4 years 2 months ago #15 by Softdreams
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  • Thank you so much for this!

    So basically human mages/Wizards mostly work with "tamed"/neutral essence which is what enables them to perform such a wide array of spells. And, specializations/ attunement for human mages are "subtle" unlike their non-human/elemental counterparts.

    I put this into Pokémon terms to help myself understand it better, feel free to correct me in case I've yet to get it right (This is assuming you know enough about Pokémon to understand it from this perspective). Normal type Pokémon (human mages) are known for versativity when it comes to learning moves (spells) from other Pokémon types (essence types), even though they're able to learn these moves when performed by them [Normal type Pokémon] these moves are not as efficient/strong as when they're effectuated by those belonging to said type (Elementals, etc...).

    Also, I can see most student mages not being aware of these spells not being performed up to their true potential since the spells have already been designed to account for this, so they might think "this is as strong as it gets!". If a student used enough "tamed"/neutral essence into a "stronger" spell could they recreate stronger effects, such as creating a fireball that can actually do some real damage? (Although, I'm aware it will never be as effective as one conjured/made with Fire essence).

    Thanks in advance!
    4 years 2 months ago #16 by Softdreams
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  • Thank you, I just saw this!

    So put into simpler terms; the essence type doesn't affect whether or not you cast a spell of a different element/essence type, but the spell would be more efficient/stronger if it were to be cast using that said essence type! Interesting. Magick in the Whateley-verse is a pretty confusing/interesting topic.
    4 years 2 months ago #17 by Softdreams
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  • There was (maybe still is, I'm trying to find it) a thread on here that talked about baseline mages, and Kristin replied to it and explained how baseline mages learn spells/rituals to augment their essence draw. If anyone can find it please send it my way!
    4 years 2 months ago #18 by Mister D
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  • Softdreams wrote: There was (maybe still is, I'm trying to find it) a thread on here that talked about baseline mages, and Kristin replied to it and explained how baseline mages learn spells/rituals to augment their essence draw. If anyone can find it please send it my way!


    There are some nice examples in some of the Wuxia stories about Qi Cultivators using "Spiritual Arrays" to increase the amount of energy in the area that is gathered, in order to increase their energy-gathering-rates when meditating in that local micro-climate.

    You can extrapolate that as a basic algorithm that operates on a local area, that can be adapted via Information-Theory-modelling to ANY form of energy.

    Yes, i know. It's an engineering approach towards Magic... :D


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    4 years 2 months ago #19 by Mister D
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  • This also extrapolates nicely into the different forms of Essence having a different levels of efficacy within the spells that are focused on those specific energies.

    The Essence stored in the individual's personal wells being the basic Neutral-flavour manna.

    Looking at MTG mechanics would be another way of modelling that would work, ie. Transparent Manna vs. Coloured Manna.

    Different flavours of Essence Storage that are specific to the Elemental flavours of Essence would also be a nice combination for Mage-Artisans to work on. :)


    Measure Twice
    4 years 2 months ago #20 by Malady
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  • Softdreams wrote: There was (maybe still is, I'm trying to find it) a thread on here that talked about baseline mages, and Kristin replied to it and explained how baseline mages learn spells/rituals to augment their essence draw. If anyone can find it please send it my way!


    If you're talking about "Drawing / Calling down the Moon", that was given in stories only or something? DDG / Google aren't helping.
    4 years 2 months ago #21 by null0trooper
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  • Malady wrote:

    Softdreams wrote: There was (maybe still is, I'm trying to find it) a thread on here that talked about baseline mages, and Kristin replied to it and explained how baseline mages learn spells/rituals to augment their essence draw. If anyone can find it please send it my way!


    If you're talking about "Drawing / Calling down the Moon", that was given in stories only or something? DDG / Google aren't helping.


    The use of Calling or Drawing down the Moon was mentioned in " Elle 1 Dawn of the Aurora (Part 1) " and " To Seal Our Happiness, Part 1 ", but not detailed. Any resemblance to the IRL Wiccan ritual is coincidental. (Wiccans understand the differences between fiction and real world practice, but you'd be surprised and appalled at how many other people don't.)

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    4 years 2 months ago #22 by Softdreams
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  • Nope, that's not the one. I can barely string together what the post said. It used to come up on google very easily, but it seems to have banished. Thanks for answering!
    4 years 2 months ago #23 by Softdreams
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  • Discussing the many different Essence Flavours have revealed an entirely new world of possibilities. This only gets more and more interesting!
    4 years 2 months ago #24 by Softdreams
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  • A confirmation on whether or not my Pokémon types/Essence flavours analogy would be greatly appreciated!

    Are there any explanations/theories on natural spells in non-Sidhe mages?

    Do potion making and enchantments both fall into alchemy? Is conjuring another term for summoning in the Whateley-verse?

    Thanks in advance
    4 years 2 months ago #25 by Kristin Darken
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  • Sorry, I don't know enough about Pokemon to confirm or deny any analogy using it. :P

    I'm not sure what you're asking re: natural spells in non-Sidhe mages...

    Potion Making and Enchantments are not Alchemy... all three of these are unique methods of working with the nature of a thing and through a process potentially involving magic (but not necessarily).

    Potion Making is a process of using materials that have certain characteristics or metaphorical associations in combination with each other to bring out a specific benefit that, when consumed, provides some benefit to the user. Those who make potions also tend to learn recipes for salves, tinctures, teas and so on.

    Alchemy often 'seems' the same as a slightly more scientific / engineering oriented Potion Making... but the key difference between them is that where the intent of potion making is to generate something that draws out a key quality from its materials... the goal of alchemy is transformation, changing one substance into another more valuable one.

    Enchantment is the process of taking a core item and using other materials and magic to make it better for purposes that core item is used. Adding magic to a sword to keep it permanently sharp, to hit more heavily, to burst into flames when it cuts flesh.

    Artificing (which you didn't mention) is often lumped into Enchantment but is slightly different. This is the process of creating items that are inherently magic. The results may often seem indistinquishable from Enchantment.. like.. the creation of a sword that flames when it cuts flesh. The difference though, is that an enchantment is applied to a sword... and thus, in theory at least, can also be stripped from the sword (or at least suppressed). A sword built to flame when it cuts... where that is its inherent nature... is far more difficult to stop.

    Conjuring / Summoning - not the same, nope. At the most basic, conjuring creates something from nothing. Summoning brings something from elsewhere.


    IRL - Drawing Down the Moon is a Wiccan ritual / ceremony in which the High Priestess of a circle calls the Goddess into her, allow the Goddess to give guidance and direction to those present for the benefit and growth of those present. When done by those who practice the craft, the circle is often filled with energy by the presence of the Goddess... so larger workings are often held in combination with Drawing Down so they benefit from both the advice and energy brought to the circle.

    For WU purposes, the Drawing Down is a moon tied ceremony that requires some small commitment of Essence to perform successfully that with a proper Priestess in place CAN provide a temporary conduit to an ancient source of wisdom... or, as is often the case, a brief moment of time in which the 'eye' of the goddess is on the circle that sought her attention. When this occurs, a surge of Essence is drawn down from the divine / the moon and a Mage with a lit Well can make use of or draw some of this Essence into storage. The amount of Essence isn't huge by any means and it varies depending on how long the Goddess lingers at the circle (obviously longer if its a true coven with a Priestess, etc) and the ceremony can only happen once a month (under the moon associated with the proper aspect of the Goddess for your circle). But this is one of a few ways that Mages can acquire Essence 'easily' ... as long as they have sufficient as a circle to initiate the ceremony.

    Fate guard you and grant you a Light to brighten your Way.
    4 years 2 months ago #26 by null0trooper
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  • Kristin Darken wrote: Enchantment is the process of taking a core item and using other materials and magic to make it better for purposes that core item is used. Adding magic to a sword to keep it permanently sharp, to hit more heavily, to burst into flames when it cuts flesh.


    With the sword and the enchantment originally being separate, shouldn't it be possible to transfer an enchantment from one anchor item to another (and perhaps equally improbable with an artificer-built item)?

    Kristin Darken wrote: For WU purposes, the Drawing Down is a moon tied ceremony that requires some small commitment of Essence to perform successfully that with a proper Priestess in place CAN provide a temporary conduit to an ancient source of wisdom...
    ... this is one of a few ways that Mages can acquire Essence 'easily' ... as long as they have sufficient as a circle to initiate the ceremony.


    While at first glance this looks like "something for nothing", we'd never be able to measure the Other's beginning and ending states or even the amount of energy obtained vs. the amount released. However, the House always takes its cut.

    Forum-posted ideas are freely adoptable.

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    4 years 2 months ago #27 by Kristin Darken
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  • In the heirarchy of power, we see Essence used (mostly by mortal mages, though Sidhe used a scaled up version of it from the World Trees and ley flows)...

    But we also have two additional power sources in play... there's the spirit energy that we talk about being generated by Avatars and is the 'coin of the realm' in the spirit worlds, necessary for sustaining stable existance and growing in power there. We also show that the cost of 'living' as a spirit or other dimensional being goes up closer to the physical world... which is why spirits don't just hang out without a hallow at will in the physical world. Doing so 'costs' them and once depleted, the absence of this energy can corrupt and destroy them if they don't manage to flee into the spirit realms. Essence can also be used as a means to create artificial hallows and to sustain a spirit, but typically at a high cost to a mage (ie spirit energy is a higher order / more dense energy than spirit energy).

    Then, there's the energy that sustains divinity / divine beings. Also another 'step up' in energy density... which is one reason the average avatar doesn't host gods - instead only special subtypes (channelers and paladins) deal with them, each in their own particular way. the spirit energy generated by an Avatar simply doesn't 'do it' for a god. You could say... (this isn't official canon just a 'how I think of it' sort of thing) that being a god is just like being a mage. You have to have your 'well' lit before you can start collecting the divine energy generated by faith/worship and ceremony... but once you do, you can start collecting that energy and using it just as a Mage uses Essence. Except the things gods can put energy into are scaled appropriately. They expend a certain amount being 'immortal' and so on.

    Which is where the 'something for nothing' comes into play. When you're drinking a glass of cold tea in the hottest days of summer, you don't really mind that your glass is collecting condensation and dripping water on the table / coaster. You aren't desperate enough to collect that condensation and save it for later when you're thirsty, you've got a glass of tea right there.

    In the Calling ceremony, the small Essence expenditure is mostly about creating a locked circle.. akin to a large Well instead of your individual one. The ceremony to the Goddess is what draws divine attention, generating faith/divine energy for whatever aspect of the Goddess gives the circle attention. The Essence that happens to fill the circle is incidental to the Goddess. It doesn't amount to any serious amount of usable energy on the divine level. And you, as a mortal, have no way to make use of the divine energy raised by the ceremony but the Goddess certainly does... and in a true full circle, its worth enough to merit the Goddess making a quick appearance to give advice. So... its not something from nothing... its a trade of something you can create but has no value to you but that I need... for something that I create that you need.

    Fate guard you and grant you a Light to brighten your Way.
    4 years 2 months ago #28 by Softdreams
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  • Thanks for answering, Kristin!

    I will try to make an attempt at rephrasing my Pokémon analogy using terms that are actually used in the Whateley-Universe; Mutant and baseline mages use neutral essence, due to its neutrality it allows Wizards and baseline mages to cast a wide array of spells, basically they can cast fireballs, wind torrents etc... But these elemental spells are never going to be as strong as those cast using actual Elemental Essence. Can human mages (both baseline and Wizard) put enough neutral essence into a spell so that they can actually cast a fireball/other elemental spell that packs a real punch?

    By natural spells; I'm referring to those spells performed by Wizard mages with no prior training, those they can intuitively and effortlessly perform, is there any reason as to why they can cast these spells with no prior training?

    Thanks for answering my question about enchantements, and for explaining the difference between enchantments and artifacts!

    Since I'm making this post I'll throw these two in:

    Can familiars only be magickal constructs given shape? Or can they be actually summoned beings (such as kitsunes, etc...) or animals imbued with essence (giving them intelligence to carry out their masters' bidding) to play the role of familiars? Could you turn a human being into a familiar?

    What sort of basic spells would a mage be taught in Magic Theory/Lab?
    4 years 2 months ago #29 by null0trooper
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  • Softdreams wrote: Can human mages (both baseline and Wizard) put enough neutral essence into a spell so that they can actually cast a fireball/other elemental spell that packs a real punch?


    That depends on what is considered a "real punch". In There's No Place Like Poe, Part 6 , do Diamondback's and Totem's spells count?

    Bear in mind that essence can be transferred, pooled, or even stored for future use.

    Softdreams wrote: By natural spells; I'm referring to those spells performed by Wizard mages with no prior training, those they can intuitively and effortlessly perform, is there any reason as to why they can cast these spells with no prior training?


    Please name the untrained Wizard and their "natural" spells. There are far too many WIZ-type mutants to try to guess who you're referring to.

    To get the usual suspects out of the way:

    Fey: For the first several months after her manifestation, she had a conscious shard of an ancient Sidhe royal's soul living in her head 24/7. Some of the bigger, more complex workings were actually handled by Aunghadhail. She's also been taught by Sir Wallace Westmont as well as the permanent faculty.

    Pejuta: She's got a facet of Wakan Tanka in her head, showing her what to do and how to do it. She's also been taught by Totem and Elyzia Grimes.

    Bladedancer: Her personal tutor, Rebecca Stone, has taught her the use of spell slips.

    Absinthe: Like Nikki Reilly, she is reincarnated ancient Sidhe nobility, so she's learned things from her dreams of the past in addition to her ongoing studies with The Woodwife and the Mystic Arts faculty at Whateley.

    Eldritch: Erik Mahren's soul has been bound to a very, very ancient construct that has the user manuals and blueprints for just about anything mystical hard-coded into it.

    Forum-posted ideas are freely adoptable.

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    4 years 2 months ago #30 by Mister D
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  • null0trooper wrote:

    Softdreams wrote: Can human mages (both baseline and Wizard) put enough neutral essence into a spell so that they can actually cast a fireball/other elemental spell that packs a real punch?


    That depends on what is considered a "real punch". In There's No Place Like Poe, Part 6 , do Diamondback's and Totem's spells count?

    Bear in mind that essence can be transferred, pooled, or even stored for future use.

    Softdreams wrote: By natural spells; I'm referring to those spells performed by Wizard mages with no prior training, those they can intuitively and effortlessly perform, is there any reason as to why they can cast these spells with no prior training?


    Please name the untrained Wizard and their "natural" spells. There are far too many WIZ-type mutants to try to guess who you're referring to.


    Absinthe: Like Nikki Reilly, she is reincarnated ancient Sidhe nobility, so she's learned things from her dreams of the past in addition to her ongoing studies with The Woodwife and the Mystic Arts faculty at Whateley.


    Also some of her powers come from the intelligent use of hobgoblins, as a way of siphoning off the unwanted energies that she's generating due to her Sidhe nature.


    Measure Twice
    4 years 2 months ago #31 by Softdreams
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  • By packing a punch I was referring to any significant damage. I re-read the example Kristin named and I think I might've simply misunderstood what Kristin's words: "An inefficient super simple Firebolt spell is going to be more neutral Essence based magick than it is 'fire'. It's basically pyrokinesis applied to a small ball of ectoplasm or conjured flammable materials. You don't need elemental Fire for that. On the other hand, the Elemental Fire version is going to do a hella lot more damage. This would be a Firebolt with all the weight of the nature of Fire behind it. To achieve that, you are probably going to need Fire Essence instead of the normal mage stuff."

    By that I understood that all elemental spells cast using neutral essence wouldn't really "pack a punch", but re-reading it I think Kristin simply named a truly inefficient spell that could potentially cause damage if it had been cast using Fire Essence, so maybe casting a fireball or something else... Could cause significant damage whether or not it was cast using neutral essence.

    And no, I was not referring to any of those mages, especially not the Sidhe ones. It was a generalized question, natural spells have been mentioned in quite a few stories, the concept was even mentioned in Jade's origin story; when she was being tested for mutant powers, the tester considered putting her down as a "wizard with one spell."

    The same goes for many other stories: "Dawn of the Aurora" (the tester mentioned that it isn't uncommon for Wiz-type mutants to cast at least one "natural spell"), Palantir's ball, A Dragon Abroad (Part 2) (Elyzia grimes and other teacher complained about mages with a natural talent for some spells wanting to use them for everything), and Camille Anders, etc...
    4 years 2 months ago - 4 years 2 months ago #32 by Schol-R-LEA
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  • I would like to remind people (or point out to those who hadn't seen it) that we've had a discussion on 'real-world' alchemy before, though just how much the Alchemy practiced by, say, Professor al-Feyez (who was described as the "Mystic Arts Program's resident expert on Alchemy" in the wiki) or Maestro Du Maugris (what do you think an athanor is for?), really isn't clear.

    Out, damnéd Spot! Bad Doggy!
    Last Edit: 4 years 2 months ago by Schol-R-LEA.
    4 years 2 months ago #33 by Kristin Darken
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  • Ah... by 'natural spell' you're talking about something that is a spell-like innate ability using Essence that they just 'know' how to do without learning it.

    This is similar to 'creating' hobgoblins in the sense that magic doesn't need complex spell casting to cause an effect. As long as you supply an intent to Essence under your control, it will act on that intent. Of course, intent is a wiggly squirmy thing with lots of ways for the energy to drain out of its control ... and like electricity, Essence is always going to take the least resistance path to 'ground.' And hobgoblins aren't the only 'overfull' Well problem. Spilling uncontrolled Essence produces hobgoblins... but an undisciplined Mage with uncontrolled abundance of Essence will find it being burned off by 'least wishes'... anything that you might 'want' for the briefest of moments counts as an intent for the purpose of loose Essence.

    For baseline Mages, this is less often an issue... apprentices spend years training their will to be ready to hold Essence firmly in their Well long before they are granted enough Essence to light their Well. And with continued work on their discipline through their journeyman years as they accumulate Essence and invest it into collection systems, there are few times they come near to having spillage or uncontrolled Essence for this to happen. But with Wizard class mutants, excess Essence long before they have the discipline to control it? Almost guaranteed. So Wiz class mutants do lots of 'unintended' non-spell things. Like glow. Have glamour-like effects (they want people to like or fear or trust them, etc). They may appear to be lucky. Things happen at random, as if they were probability warpers, etc.

    Some 'specific' things may be a combination of this 'uncontrolled' Essence effect in which they get a spell effect purely from intent applied to loose Essence.Most likely, the same thing can be done with a spell much more efficiently and the non-spell might not actually work once the Mage has some training and doesn't allow their Essence to get out of control, and they would have to develop a process of freeing up essence to use the ability the original way.

    Fate guard you and grant you a Light to brighten your Way.
    4 years 2 months ago #34 by Softdreams
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  • Thank you, Kristin! I liked this explanation quite a lot!

    I was doing some research on familiars, and there doesn't seem to be a lot of canon information out on them yet, so I was wondering if you could answer these:

    Can familiars only be magickal constructs given shape? Or could they be actually summoned beings (such as kitsunes, elementals, etc...) or animals imbued with essence (giving them enough intelligence to carry out their masters' bidding) to play the role of familiars? Is it possible to have more than one? Could you turn a human being into a familiar?

    What sort of basic spells would a mage be taught in Magic Theory/Lab?

    Also, I think I might've misunderstood one of your previous answers, if a human/wiz-type mage were to cast a fireball or some other offensive elemental spell using neutral essence, would it be inefficient? Or were you only referring to that specific spell*?

    *"An inefficient super simple Firebolt spell is going to be more neutral Essence based magick than it is 'fire'. It's basically pyrokinesis applied to a small ball of ectoplasm or conjured flammable materials."
    4 years 2 months ago #35 by Astrodragon
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  • Softdreams wrote: What sort of basic spells would a mage be taught in Magic Theory/Lab?

    ."


    A lot of this is covered in Morgana's G2 stories.

    I love watching their innocent little faces smiling happily as they trip gaily down the garden path, before finding the pit with the rusty spikes.
    4 years 2 months ago #36 by Softdreams
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  • Thank you!
    4 years 2 months ago #37 by Softdreams
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  • If anyone knows enough about familiars (in-universe), feel free to contribute your knowledge on the topic!
    4 years 2 months ago #38 by Kristin Darken
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  • Basic spells?

    Light

    Also, Light.

    More Light.

    And probably Light.

    Why a basic light spell? The simplest light spell out there is also one of the simplest measurable outcome spells in existence. It takes a very standard amount of energy to cast it and it either works or doesn't work. Sure, you can add extensions to it to vary the outcome, but the default spell uses a set amount of Essence and produces a consistent amount of light. Additionally, continuing to apply that amount of Essence sustains the spell. For that reason, this light spell is actually used as the measurable standard by which Essence is counted.

    But a lot of what is taught in the theory class is not existing structured spells so much as the 'theory' of spell casting... what it means to acquire and hold Essence, to store Essence in temporary items for a 'rainy day', what happens to a mage using Essence or being depleted of it, what is involved in controlling Essence and bringing it from your Well and using it in the process of casting a spell, to build and store spell 'pieces' so quick choices can be made in emergency situations without having to cast entire complex workings. How to see goals in terms of times and stages, understanding that you need knowledge, and casting skill, and enough Essence to do any major working... and that by the time you have all the things in place for such, will your goals still be the same? And understanding why your goals need to be clear because intent affects every step of the process.

    Any specific spell you might learn along the way in a class like that is going to be examined as a 'case in point' during Lab time.

    Remember, for part of the class, the only real amount of Essence available to them is stored by teachers (or other 'donors') in the training wands. Some students in the intro classes won't even have lit Wells until late in the semester when they have the discipline to self-light or manage to set up a couple Essence 'lures'. Only the Wizard ranked students with high enough Essence draws that they light their own Well even despite spillage will start the first year classes capable of casting even a Light spell with their own Essence.


    Familiars.

    This one is trickier. See.. the familiars themselves aren't talking. They aren't people converted into animals... we know that much. But whether they started as animals and became something more or were something 'else' and took on common animal forms... everyone's just guessing. In reality, it doesn't matter much... either way, they're smarter than 'normal' animals and are able to do things and have levels of independence that a normal animal wouldn't. They don't typically have power of their own, which you'd think a summoned creature of the sort you're talking about would... but they are valuable and important to a mage who uses them.

    What they 'do' is easier to answer. They are an added 'hand' in the spell casting process. Imagine, for example, that you are casting a spell that requires a complex weave of energies, that at one point come together in an amplification and blending section. Three or four types of Essence flow through the lines prior to that, ready to be linked in... but if only two of them join alone and then the remainder added late, it will shatter the balance of the system. Or, if one or more of these energies are 'crossed' in the process of manipulating, they'll jump courses and cancel each other out. To handle this as a solo caster, the familiar can act a bit like a vice grip in your wood shop... holding or moving one or more pieces in place for you while you weave in the rest. Additionally, the familiar can work as short term energy storage for when you have too much coming in too quickly and you need to shunt it aside without losing it... or set it aside for a moment while you work on another segment of the spell. A familiar isn't long term storage like a properly prepared altar or wand, but they can also move the energy around more quickly than a mage can pull or push energy to a 'true' storage system.

    Other things a familiar can do for their mage is act as a focus point for a variety of spells for scouting and surveying purposes... or as a mobile 'buff' carrier. Though such things can put the familiar at risk.


    A LOT of basic combat spells rely on basic untainted Essence manipulated in a way to achieve something that could be done more 'efficiently' by a more complex spell. They are, by definition, combat spells... and that requires speed and flexibility in use that does not come from efficiency. A complex ritual can be built to cast a fireball that conjures an accelerant around a highly flammable material and wraps it in compressed oxygen and propels it with telekinetic force. Properly designed and cast, the spell would take a small fraction of the Essence a standard combat fireball would.

    Similarly, a standard combat firebolt (not a fireball, as those are generally in the large radius big boom category of attacks) is likely to be not much more than a TK or 'levin' bolt (mage bolt) pushed through a filter that uses some of the energy to heat up the air around the bolt until it is hot enough to have flames. Normally, that sort of bolt is going to burn and leave scorch marks where it hits, and have a small amount of knockback... but it isn't going to set much on fire unless it 'sticks' to it long enough. Making it 'wet' enough to stick will either take pushing even more energy into it or lessening the burn value.

    Using Fire from the Elemental plane of Fire isn't something you want to do for a normal 'simple' attack. Fire, capital F, burns. Incinerates. and its inclination isn't to just hit something and go out... Fire wants to burn all the things. So using Fire in a combat fire spell... even refining a low output spell like a simple Firebolt... to use Fire... is going to make it do scarily more damage. Will that cost 'more' Essence overall? Don't know. Maybe. Maybe not. Depends on the variant of firebolt you use... or... lots of things. Most importantly, its the sort of detail that only really matters if you're writing a dissertation on the construction of efficient and practical, non-ritual Firebolts for combat use... and since no one's defending that dissertation in universe atm, we don't need that level of detail. Write it however you want to make a good story out of it.

    Fate guard you and grant you a Light to brighten your Way.
    4 years 2 months ago #39 by Astrodragon
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  • In Gen2, they are lucky in that all the class have lit wells (as Kristen says, this isnt always the case), so they can cover the practical use of magic a lot more easily.
    Most of what I describe is the practical class, because, well, its a bit more interesting, athough the theory class is covered too.
    The first things they are taught is some simple cantrips for light, water, and so on. All of which are non-damaging (they know the kids WILL try them out anyway, and this way they are less likely to be practising on dangerous ones), and give them practice in casting and working out how much essence to use.
    There is the added benefit (from Grime's pov!) that this soakd up the kids essence so we get a lot less hobgoblins running around the cottages.
    It also gives them time to practice the mental exercises for retaining essence; later on they will be learning more difficult and powerful spells, and we dont have any Wiz-7's (thankfully)

    I love watching their innocent little faces smiling happily as they trip gaily down the garden path, before finding the pit with the rusty spikes.
    4 years 2 months ago #40 by Softdreams
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  • Thanks, Kristin! My doubts have been cleared up.

    Now, Light spells? What does this mean for students like Natch and Darqueheart? Or the other erebeal magick users.
    4 years 2 months ago #41 by Softdreams
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  • Thanks, Astrodragon!

    + Spells equals to - Hobgoblings, Grimes has surely thought this one through. No Wiz-7's? Thank God! Are all the basics to Magick covered in Magic Theory/Lab? Or will they try to keep it light-hearted? If so, I believe erebeal magick users must have a hard time catching up.

    Regarding the spells, uhm... This is interesting, they mostly cover Light/Water spells, and some basic enchantments. What sort of more difficult spells will be covered in the Fall semester? If you don't mind giving me any examples.
    4 years 2 months ago #42 by Softdreams
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  • Honestly, the more I know about in-universe magick; the more confusing/interesting it gets! Open up the portal and sign me up for the Mystic Arts curriculum.
    4 years 2 months ago #43 by Astrodragon
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  • They are up to mid-October in Magick 101, so the basics have been started on. Lots more to cover before Xmas

    I love watching their innocent little faces smiling happily as they trip gaily down the garden path, before finding the pit with the rusty spikes.
    4 years 2 months ago #44 by Softdreams
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  • Sorry, I meant to say Spring semester*.
    4 years 2 months ago #45 by Bek D Corbin
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  • Softdreams wrote: Light spells? What does this mean for students like Nacht and Darqueheart? .

    Kate: "Well, it's not Fig Newtons, but it'll do." <SLURP!>
    4 years 2 months ago #46 by Softdreams
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  • Bek has answered one of my questions...

    *TRIES BEST TO CONTAIN THE FANGIRLING*

    *refrains from typing a 20 paragraphs essay on why Beltane is the best character ever to be written*

    *holds back from pointing out the "Forbes" in my name to show my admiration for her character*

    Hi... Kate *voice cracks* and here I thought you couldn't cast a Light spell to save your life! Isn't Light incompatible with your Erebeal essence? *gulps*
    4 years 2 months ago #47 by null0trooper
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  • Softdreams wrote: Hi... Kate *voice cracks* and here I thought you couldn't cast a Light spell to save your life! Isn't Light incompatible with your Erebeal essence? *gulps*


    A boyish tenor weaves its way through the darkness. "Whoever told you that?"

    The pale young man that steps from the shadows adjusts a lavender tie - quite the counterpoint to his suit of undertaker's black, blood red shirt, and its coffin nail cufflinks. He smiles at some obvious joke.

    "As Marzena could have told you,were she here, Theia and Erebos are both Powers in their own right, as hopelessly intertwined as Eros and Thanatos."

    Forum-posted ideas are freely adoptable.

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    4 years 2 months ago #48 by Softdreams
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  • I typed up an entire in-character response, and deleted it off by mistake when hitting the submit button. *sigh* Well, typing it all over again just isn't worth the trouble.

    That I'm aware of, and clearer it couldn't be. But, Kate is attuned to the Erebos, I thought Erebeal magick was the only type of magick she could cast/make use of. Once again I've been proved otherwise, I think... (? Have we ever seen her casting/using non-Erebeal magick in any story?
    4 years 2 months ago #49 by Mister D
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  • Softdreams wrote: I typed up an entire in-character response, and deleted it off by mistake when hitting the submit button. *sigh* Well, typing it all over again just isn't worth the trouble.

    That I'm aware of, and clearer it couldn't be. But, Kate is attuned to the Erebos, I thought Erebeal magick was the only type of magick she could cast/make use of. Once again I've been proved otherwise, I think... (? Have we ever seen her casting/using non-Erebeal magick in any story?


    Read "Silent Nacht" for more of the answers. :D


    Measure Twice
    4 years 2 months ago #50 by null0trooper
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  • Softdreams wrote: That I'm aware of, and clearer it couldn't be. But, Kate is attuned to the Erebos, I thought Erebeal magick was the only type of magick she could cast/make use of. Once again I've been proved otherwise, I think... (? Have we ever seen her casting/using non-Erebeal magick in any story?


    She's a human teenager. Humans aren't inherently restricted to Erebeal magic unless otherwise stated in text. She's still going to go with the minimum effort option and her author is only going to show the story-relevant castings.

    Compare her situation with the WhatIF character Metro: necromancy is just another form of human magic, albeit one that's restricted by laws and regulations. You haven't seen him use it in his stories. However:

    "Let's just say that Madsy is not supposed to play with the bad books about dead things that don't stay that way."

    (There's precisely one supporting character who calls him that, and I've already hinted at who that is.)

    As Mister D said, read "Silent Nacht" and wait for Marzena to grab the Idiot Ball before she starts monologuing. I doubt you'll be disappointed.

    Forum-posted ideas are freely adoptable.

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