Question Aboriginal history in Whateley-'verse Sum Up?

What do we know about Native American History of the Whateley-verse?

We haven't heard anything about Residential Schools and stuff... All we know about the Whateley-'verse Native Americans is that have Reservations, right?

The big thing we get is that History as it is know in the Whateley Universe is a lie because of the Sundering. The Real history of their world has humans existing on Pangea.

konzill wrote: The big thing we get is that History as it is know in the Whateley Universe is a lie because of the Sundering. The Real history of their world has humans existing on Pangea.

I thought the "It is real - to you." means that the current history is a history that is valid and consistent, but it's just not the first.

Medicine Girl wrote: "Long ago, the world was whole. Magic was everywhere. It was the time of the Five-Fold Courts, but it was also the beginning of the rise of man." She frowned deeply. "Then came the Bastard, the evil one. He shattered the land, broke the Five-Fold Courts, and burned the sacred trees that had brought magic to the land. He scattered the Peoples as well."

Circe frowned. "The breaking of Pangea happened millions of years before the rise of humans," she said, confused.

Wakan Tanka sighed. "At the Sundering, time itself was shattered. What you 'know' as the history of the world is a haphazard ordering of what Wihakayda calls space-time, shattered and strewn about through time itself." She shook her head sadly. "What is now are merely scattered fragments of what was before."

"Are you saying that ... our history ... isn't real?" Dr. Tenent asked hesitantly.

"It is real - to you. It is not real to me, nor to Aunghadhail, nor to any of the surviving spirits of the Sundering." She looked down in her cup. "I fought alongside Aunghadhail against the Bastard. The Bastard used his foul powers to create the demons of the world, warping rocks and trees and people into whatever evil form he desired. Many of my shamans fought and died alongside the Sidhe, fighting against him, while the demons he created hunted the People." She shook her head sadly. "When the world broke, we were scattered, our tribes strewn about in both space and time. Many ... did not survive."

One thing to remember is that while ghostwalking and other things might be real, so would European rituals countering them, and giving strength to their own soldiers. With that it all comes down to numbers again.
Also while much of that was happening it might have been a time of low essence. it could have been building up, but until Whateley's 'now' it was even more difficult to build up the necessary essence to cast most spells that are done so easily now.
That would explain why Sidhe started coming back in the 1600's I believe, but only reached 1000 individuals in 2006, with an ever increasing number now. The essence to survive in numbers simply wasn't there.

Malady wrote:

konzill wrote: The big thing we get is that History as it is know in the Whateley Universe is a lie because of the Sundering. The Real history of their world has humans existing on Pangea.

I thought the "It is real - to you." means that the current history is a history that is valid and consistent, but it's just not the first.

Medicine Girl wrote: Circe frowned. "The breaking of Pangea happened millions of years before the rise of humans," she said, confused.

Wakan Tanka sighed. "At the Sundering, time itself was shattered. What you 'know' as the history of the world is a haphazard ordering of what Wihakayda calls space-time, shattered and strewn about through time itself." She shook her head sadly. "What is now are merely scattered fragments of what was before."

"Are you saying that ... our history ... isn't real?" Dr. Tenent asked hesitantly.

To those who weren't at the Five-Fold Courts or the Sundering, there is no concept of nor evidence of a pre-shattered time and world. What is known to them is ONLY the results of the Sundering - a disordered, distorted timeline - and because of no evidence of anything else, it is believed by all but the Sundering survivors. So to Dr. Tenent, the only reality she knows is the post-sundering mess.

Now, as to aboriginal magic, in the same story (Medicine Girl) it was stated that there were many tribes of humans, with shaman magic and traditions. The shaman-hunter (Kigatilik if you follow Kayda stories) found and killed many, many shamans, wiping out a lot of knowledge of shaman magic, but he didn't destroy it all. It survivied, and with it, many of the tribes, but the traditions that survived with each tribe were sometimes incomplete, so there is significant variation of known magic from tribe-to-tribe. So Australian aboriginal magic is derived from the same traditions as Lakota shaman magic and African tribes, and so on.

If the Europeans seem ignorant of shaman magic, it's because the civilization 'progressed' and modernized, and the need for shaman magic abated until it was mostly forgotten. I say mostly because there are some who cling to the old traditions. So no, the European-derived 7th Cavalry (for example) would have no counter to a Native American ghost-walker. Only the lack of available magic power to use ghost-walking on a wide basis saved the newcomers. Modern magic might have some overlap with shaman magic, but only to the extent that the old shaman traditions survived through the ages.

elrodw wrote:

Malady wrote:

konzill wrote: The big thing we get is that History as it is know in the Whateley Universe is a lie because of the Sundering. The Real history of their world has humans existing on Pangea.

I thought the "It is real - to you." means that the current history is a history that is valid and consistent, but it's just not the first.

Medicine Girl wrote: Circe frowned. "The breaking of Pangea happened millions of years before the rise of humans," she said, confused.

Wakan Tanka sighed. "At the Sundering, time itself was shattered. What you 'know' as the history of the world is a haphazard ordering of what Wihakayda calls space-time, shattered and strewn about through time itself." She shook her head sadly. "What is now are merely scattered fragments of what was before."

"Are you saying that ... our history ... isn't real?" Dr. Tenent asked hesitantly.

To those who weren't at the Five-Fold Courts or the Sundering, there is no concept of nor evidence of a pre-shattered time and world. What is known to them is ONLY the results of the Sundering - a disordered, distorted timeline - and because of no evidence of anything else, it is believed by all but the Sundering survivors. So to Dr. Tenent, the only reality she knows is the post-sundering mess.

Now, as to aboriginal magic, in the same story (Medicine Girl) it was stated that there were many tribes of humans, with shaman magic and traditions. The shaman-hunter (Kigatilik if you follow Kayda stories) found and killed many, many shamans, wiping out a lot of knowledge of shaman magic, but he didn't destroy it all. It survivied, and with it, many of the tribes, but the traditions that survived with each tribe were sometimes incomplete, so there is significant variation of known magic from tribe-to-tribe. So Australian aboriginal magic is derived from the same traditions as Lakota shaman magic and African tribes, and so on.

If the Europeans seem ignorant of shaman magic, it's because the civilization 'progressed' and modernized, and the need for shaman magic abated until it was mostly forgotten. I say mostly because there are some who cling to the old traditions. So no, the European-derived 7th Cavalry (for example) would have no counter to a Native American ghost-walker. Only the lack of available magic power to use ghost-walking on a wide basis saved the newcomers. Modern magic might have some overlap with shaman magic, but only to the extent that the old shaman traditions survived through the ages.

But the Europeans would have had Christian and Jewish magical/religious rituals that would to some extent counter Native American/Australian/African etc. magic.

That was my thinking.
Not as direct as shaman magic, but prayers for protection by a priest pushing odds in their favour. Helping to limit the damage a ghost walker or similar to could do. Ancent prayers against witchcraft countering more direct battlefiel magic that shamans could toss in their direction. Things like that.
Nothing obvious enough to say 'Hey we're using magic' at least for the common man, but for the few magicians in the church or amongst regular solders, t would help even the odds.

These were not duels of competing magical traditions. But while force of numbers does play a part in all of this the real undoing of the aboriginal tribes was the same thing that undid them in our universe; firearms. It takes many, many years to train a shaman as it takes many, many years to train a sorcerer; a man can be turned into a decent shot with a rifle in an afternoon. Even in the early industrial revolution the standard shop could turn out dozens of rifles in a week.

That same man can be turned into a soldier with a few weeks of drill. Mobs of men returned to regiments in a fraction of the time it would take to even light the essence of a new shaman or sorcerer's apprentice. And while the tribes could be quite murderous to each other, sustained, organized warfare was really something of a foreign concept; if you'll forgive me the pun. Or as Ruben famously put it, "you hit a guy, he whacks you, Done!" None of the Plains tribes had the logistics or the support base to resist the determined Western expansion spearheaded by the US cavalry in either world.

There might be a single wizard or even a moderately trained adept for the entire regiment; but the Regiment would have 12 troops of 100 men each. That's a lot of rifles.

OK, that clears up everything nicely.

Domoviye wrote: OK, that clears up everything nicely.

I found mud. Don't know how clear that was. \

Maybe at the next convention of the Wild Order of the Wandering Buffalo's it might help.

Clean your glasses off old man. That will help.

I was thinking of a different sort of magic. A more ritual based magic. The personal essence of the caster isn't important, but following the ritual exactly is. Consecration of temples, or Holy symbols or Holy Water sort of things.

The effect I was thinking of would be a faithful soldier wearing a Consecrated Crucifix that would stymie a Ghost Walking Shaman from entering his dream space.

None of this could be done in a combat situation, but would take a long time to prepare and do.

I think the be all and end all was the same in both universes.

No matter how many American settlers they killed, there was always another pilgrim caravan following on behind them, and a new boatload of new pilgrims arriving at the docks behind that. All being good at killing the settlers got you was a visit from the cavalry. Numbers and superior weapons will eventually win.

Also the Australian experience isn't compatible to the US one, Australia never really had armed resistance from our Aborigines to deal with (for a variety of reasons, mostly the land is a lot harsher and there was always massively less of both Europeans and Aborigines involved), I'm not saying there was no bloodshed, but it was usually at the level of single tribes against a dozen or so settlers, and it wasn't unknown for the police to hang the settlers for killing the Aborigines).

E. E. Nalley wrote: These were not duels of competing magical traditions. But while force of numbers does play a part in all of this the real undoing of the aboriginal tribes was the same thing that undid them in our universe; firearms.

And diseases. Flu and smallpox, among others, did a quite a number of Native Americans. Yes, Europeans got syphilis in exchange, but it is a slow killer compared to the epidemic fast killers they brought.

Phoenix Spiritus wrote: I'm not saying there was no bloodshed, but it was usually at the level of single tribes against a dozen or so settlers, and it wasn't unknown for the police to hang the settlers for killing the Aborigines).

Or for the dozen settlers to eliminate the tribe completely.

There's a massacre site not far from me.

Kristin Darken wrote: Seriously. People think what was doneas colonies were established and settlers started expandingwas bad? It was .. but it was nothing compared to the epidemics that swept across the continents a couple generations before the sttlers started building. By the time the colonists started encountering natives manytribes were gone completely and the rest wer3 shadows of what they ad been.

Yep.
Some archeologists believe before Europeans arrived there were about 90 million Indians living in North America. And sailors wrote how they could smell woodsmoke a hundred miles out to see.
Also there are reports from early explorers of finding rotting and abandoned cities (for that time a few thousand) that had disappeared by the time settleres and large numbers of explorers arrived. The epidemics were the big problem.

Hey, are the white, yellow, red, and black buffalo mythologies, as said in Buffalo Gal 1 a real thing, or just made for Whateley as a result of ethnic multi-occurrence in the days of the Five Fold Court, in the first timeline?

Or is it something else?

I can't recall what was said in the story, but there are myths and legends about different coloured buffalo heralding the start of different things. Elrod can almost certainly explain it more, but they're real.

Malady wrote: Hey, are the white, yellow, red, and black buffalo mythologies, as said in Buffalo Gal 1 a real thing, or just made for Whateley as a result of ethnic multi-occurrence in the days of the Five Fold Court, in the first timeline?

Or is it something else?

That is a real Lakota mythological thing. The four colors stand for - variously - the four directions, or the four colors of man. When it comes to Lakota mythology and lore for Kayda, unless I make note of it somewhere, it's based on authentic legend and lore.

elrodw wrote:

Malady wrote: Hey, are the white, yellow, red, and black buffalo mythologies, as said in Buffalo Gal 1 a real thing, or just made for Whateley as a result of ethnic multi-occurrence in the days of the Five Fold Court, in the first timeline?

Or is it something else?

That is a real Lakota mythological thing. The four colors stand for - variously - the four directions, or the four colors of man. When it comes to Lakota mythology and lore for Kayda, unless I make note of it somewhere, it's based on authentic legend and lore.

not just Lakota, the 4 roads / colours are also in the Coast Salish here, and in the Cree, Ojibwa tribes in eastern Canada.

Curious that the four colors of bison match the obsolete classification of mankind in four so-called "races". If this "four colors of man" mythology predated 1492, it's a hell of a coincidence. More likely it's a late-date interpretation of the myth, after someone noticed the coincidence.

we will never know for sure when the 4 colours started as such, but I suspect the 4 paths, one for each direction ( sic, every formal ceremony in native traditions has 7 sacred directions, not 4 ) does predate the 1492 columbus invasion.

edit to add:
East, South, West, North, Sky, Earth and Center. the 7 sacred directions, in the correct order.

Dawnfyre wrote: we will never know for sure when the 4 colours started as such, but I suspect the 4 paths, one for each direction ( sic, every formal ceremony in native traditions has 7 sacred directions, not 4 ) does predate the 1492 columbus invasion.

edit to add:
East, South, West, North, Sky, Earth and Center. the 7 sacred directions, in the correct order.

The number 7 appears several times in the Lakota mythology (I can't speak for others); At the time of the coming of the White Buffalo Calf Woman, the 7 sacred council fires of the Lakota were together camping. She brought 7 sacred ceremonies to the People. These are but some examples.

(And is it a coincidence that the Roman Catholic Church - source of many of the missionaries to the Native Americans - has 7 sacraments? We shall never know.)

In the Christian tradition the number seven has special meaning all the way back to the seven tribes of Israel.

Uh, Phoenix, there were 12 tribes of Israel, not 7.

The other 5 were cyclons.

jmhyp wrote: The other 5 were cyclons.

Klingons.

Cylons. Pulls out phaser firing blast back.

Klingons Jumps behind suddenly materialized wall shooting with phazer back.

E. E. Nalley wrote: Uh, Phoenix, there were 12 tribes of Israel, not 7.

Doh! Teach me to do things at midnight.

Sorry, that's why twelve is important, seven goes back to Genisis and God taking six days to create the world "and on the seventh day rested".

Sorry.

Judaism likes 7, for the days of the week, 12 for the tribes of Israel, and 40 (40 days and nights of flooding, 40 years in the desert, etc). Also 613 for the total number of commandments. That one doesn't show up in to many places, though, because it's so large.

18 is popular as well, because it's the Gematria (Hebrew numerology) for "Chai", which means life. But I think that that is a slightly more modern association, and I don't know of any biblical ties.

I'm less familiar with other traditions, although Christianity shares some numbers with Judaism, plus liking 3 for the trinity.

Also, I know that 4 is death in some cultures. I won't embarrass myself by trying to identify which ones.


And at this point I've strayed far off the topic of Whateley's Aboriginal history, so I'll shut up now.