×

Notice

The forum is in read only mode.

Question Superhero System Alternatives

6 years 2 months ago #1 by DrBender
  • DrBender
  • DrBender's Avatar Topic Author


  • Posts: 50

  • Gender: Female
  • Birthdate: 07 Mar 1978
  • So, people here probably know I'm a gamer. For those who are new, I played 1st Edition ADnD back when I was six. Over the years I've played everything from Shadowrun to nearly every incarnation of d20 to Call of Cthulhu to World/Chronicles of Darkness to Exalted/Scion to FATE and more. I've even attempted Whateley and Whateley-like setting to varying degrees of success.

    Unfortunately, I recently burned out on the d20 system. DnD 5e was my group's favourite iteration mainly because of simplification and the advantage/disadvantage mechanic (where, if you have 'advantage', you roll 2d20 and pick the highest or lowest result respectively). This was mainly because my group finds the linear probability curve frustrating. In the campaign that went south recently, I played a Cleric of Mystra with Expertise in Arcana via a Feat who STILL couldn't make an Arcana check to save her life, even with advantage, over 10 levels of play! Because you can always roll low, continuously, there's no sense of 'baseline competency'.

    <An Explaination of Dice Chance, skip if you know all this already/>
    Other systems that use multiple dice don't have this issue, so my group tends to like them better. To explain, take a simple 2d6 added together. The most probable result is a 7 with rapidly diminishing chances of getting towards of 2 or 12, a bell curve rather than the linear curve of the d20. With a d20, you have the same chance of rolling a 1 as rolling a 20 and runs of bad luck can and will destroy any idea that your character is actually skilled at anything.
    </End Explaination.>

    Anyway, I've ranted enough. Here are systems people may want to consider if you want to play a game kind of like Whateley and some examination of issues you might encounter.

    Mutants and Masterminds 3e
    So you want a d20 system that's already completed with an enormously detailed powers system, Mutants and Masterminds (M&M) has got your back. The downside is that it's still a d20 system with the flat probability curve and no advantage mechanic to try to even things out and the power creation system is HEAVILY abusable by anyone with a sense of min/maxing. I ran and played some superhero games and attempted a magical girl game that didn't really get very far for various reasons. Creating a character in this system is an arduous process too, invest in Hero Forge if you decide to go ahead here.

    Big Eyes, Small Mouth 3e
    The last and best iteration of BESM, published by Onyx Path way back before White Wolf (WW) was bought up by a bunch of right-wing asshole edgelords, but I digress into politics. It uses a 2d6+stat base system with a system of powers similar to M&M but simpler because they didn't need to shoe-horn the d20 system into it. BESM and M&M basically ripped off each other's power system, though you could point to the Hero System being their predecessor and both games being branching evolutionary paths that are much improved over the original. I'd recommend BESM3e over M&M3e personally but the power system is till really abusable.

    Abberant
    WW's old superhero system with a sanity mechanic because WW never did anything without a sanity mechanic isn't a good fit for Whateley. It's ok at what it does but it's a far more crapsack world and if you follow the in-built setting your heroes are universally doomed. The powers are also way too bonkers for Whateley-level supers. I'd step pass this one for this application.

    FATE
    FATE is a narrative system and one of my favourites because it can literally do anything but there are many variants of the system. In a nutshell, FATE is a narrative system where your characters are composed of short 'Aspects' that can combine with attributes and a roll of 4d3 (the sides have 2 -1 sides, 2 zero or blank sides and 2 +1 sides, so your average roll is 0), the result is compared to a target number or opposed by the GM's dice roll. In most iterations, you have a pool of Fate Points that give players some control over the narrative.

    I recommend this system if you're feeling like more of a freeform RP style of game but need rules and dice rolls to add the spice of possible failure when narratively appropriate. The downside is that this system is WAY different to what most gamers who were introduced to TTRPGs through d20 are used to. A lot of TTRPGs are set up so that the GM presents a problem for the players to solve and they solve it through their limited skill sets and abilities. FATE opens that out immensely and rewards proactive play and creativity by giving players some control over the narrative. It's different but highly rewarding.

    For Whateley, I'd recommend the Strands of FATE veriant. It's got a point-buy powers system like M&M or BESM and the Divine Blood game I play in uses it for the engine. Sorry for the long explanation, I didn't do this because I favour FATE, more that FATE tends to require more explaining.

    Masks
    Masks is a 'Powered by the Apocalypse' TTRPG game about, wait for it, teenage superheroes. Seems like a good fit for Whateley, huh? Well, hold up, there might be some reasons not to use this. For the record, I like Powered by the Apocalypse games but I like the variant presented in City of Mists better personally.

    So, Powered by the Apocalypse (I'm going to abbreviate this as PbtA) games have set moves. There's a move to apply violence, a move to avoid violence, a move to investigate, etc. A lot of unusual actions fall under the 'Take a Risk' move. This seems a bit restrictive on player choice but it generally works. Like FATE, you add in character aspects to rolls the GM deems they would apply to a 2d6 roll. There's a target number for degrees of success, which is why PbtA has moves so that they can give out benefits based on the type of move you're doing with different sub-systems that work pretty well.

    Masks uses 'playbooks', which are like d20 class/race combinations that provide broad structure for your character so you can hone in on the specifics yourself. Just because two people have the same playbook doesn't mean they're the same character but they're mechanically very similar. The setting that comes with Masks is very much like the old Teen Titans cartoon (you know, the good one), so if you like that you might like Masks.

    WARNING: PITFALLS OF SUPERHEROIC GAMING
    So, I fell into these pitfalls both writing Sara and trying to run superhero games. Don't make the mistakes I did.

    Sex
    Hooooo boy, what a minefield. So a lot of people who write and read Whateley (as well as comics in general) have fantasies, some of which are sexual. I certainly do and I'm lucky enough to have found some people to explore those with. Not everyone is comfortable with sex in games and it's important to work out the level to which people find such things acceptable and people's thresholds. At the same time, it pays to be open to new possibilities but, particularly at the start, it's good to be clear on the tone that you want to set. Even if you make it 100% clear what sort of game you're running and what you need from the game, though, you're going to hit things people don't want to deal with or things that only one person is keen to do that squicks everyone else at the table out.

    I'm not saying 'don't explore sexual themes at the Tabletop', I'm saying tread lightly and COMMUNICATE. Sound people out on things before they happen. Don't surprise people with them. If someone is uncomfortable, stop the game and talk it through OOC. If you need to retcon, RETCON. Nobody should be uncomfortable at the table, this is supposed to be a fun group activity where everyone is welcome. At the same time, don't kink shame for precisely the same reason.

    This is important too: If you are the odd one out in the group, if you have a kink you need to explore or if you're the only person not ok with something going on at the table, be prepared to walk away if you can't take it. Not all games are for everyone, even if you otherwise like the rest of the group. It's a shame when it happens but it's better than getting resentful because you're 'putting up with it'. That way lies madness.

    Gender
    So, I assume if you're here, you're ok with gender changes and transitioning. Playing a trans character comes in a lot of flavours, some more squicky than others. There are pitfalls to avoid, you might know some of what I'm about to say, you might not. I didn't learn a lot of this before I realized I was trans myself. I'm going to call these 'rules', but please note that they're my specific rules based on my own opinions and experiences and aren't set in stone.

    Rule 1: No transformation should be done without the permission of the player. Don't surprise people with this unless they've asked you to surprise them because they're good with almost anything. (this rule is also good for a lot of character-changing moments, it's ok to tell a player your plan, in fact it's better if you do. You might cry 'spoilers!' but the truth is a player is generally much more attached to their character than they are a movie or book.)

    Rule 2: Unwilling transformations can squick people out. For people who have experienced gender dysphoria, stuff like Forced Fem fantasies can cause freak outs. Dysphoria literally means that you experience a state of distress, gender dysphoria is a serious trauma which is partly why the trans community has a high rate of suicide. Lots of people couldn't handle a gender change and I wouldn't wish dysphoria on my worst enemy. Make sure all the players are ok if you want to explore this.

    Rule 3: Communicate, Communicate, COMMUNICATE. Another rule that applies to everything in RPGs. It's good for players to have some idea where they want their character's story arcs to go and for the GM to listen and try to include them in their plans. A God-tier GM will work everyone's intentions into a narrative that everyone can enjoy, though be prepared for the GM to fall short. GMing is a rough job, you can't cater to everyone all the time but everyone should get some spotlight. If you are having an issue, tell the GM and the players. If you are a GM or a player, listen to people and take their issue on board.

    Mind Control, Influence and Mind Death
    This is a personal one for me because I have this kink and I fell into a lot of pitfalls because I wanted to explore it. If you come from a DnD background where Charm Person is just another tool in your toolbox, this is a thing that can slip under the radar. You might not even think about how a play may feel about losing control of their character.

    Let me tell you: a lot of people HAAAATE mind control. If you're the GM, make sure the player is ok with it before you do it. No, it doesn't matter if it's the villain doing it and they're meant to be evil. Some players may rage-quit if you pull this. It's a serious berserk-button, proceed with caution. If you're a player and you want to play an 'enchantress' style character, let people know what you're planning and if anyone at the table is squicked out by it, don't do it. It's much better that you find out at the start and are prepared to walk away than push through and deal with the consequences.

    'Mind Death' where your character's brain changes to a completely different personality is also a huge squick-out for most people. It happens quite a bit in TG fiction where a lot of people are exploring the idea of being someone who is not them. In TTRPGs, it can be a bit too close to home and existential horrors about no longer being yourself literally horrify people.

    Personal Note
    I'm sorry if some of this seems obvious to you but it wasn't obvious to me when I started and I don't want people to fall into the same traps. Ideas of consent are extremely important in TTRPGs, which should be self-evident but it's surprising how unaware one can be of how things that appeal to you don't appeal to others. Everyone is different and that's a good thing but upsetting people because you have a need they don't share is bad. This by no means invalidates your needs, it just means you need to explore them with people who have the same needs.

    The statement in my signature is false.
    6 years 2 months ago #2 by CrazyMinh
    • CrazyMinh
    • CrazyMinh's Avatar


  • Posts: 758

  • Gender: Male
  • Birthdate: Unknown
  • Thanks Dr. Bender. I don't believe we've met. I'm Crazy Minh, the progentitor of this project in it's current state. Note here that I really, really enjoyed the Sara stories, and am kinda confused as to where the character went in the latest version of th WA universe. However, that discussion is for another thread. I am also a heavy RPG player, mostly D&D 5e and Shadowrun 5e. I've played a bit of Deadlands, Trail of Cthulhu and Battletech, as well as minor games of RWBY the RPG, Mutants and Masterminds and Pathfinder. So I can see where you are coming from in most of your contributions. I'd like to add that the RPG group is yet to formally discuss where we want this project to go, and our personal interpetations, and we've been kinda just trying to figure out our basic framework in our own ways. So far, things have gone shockingly well, regardless of the inherant lack of organisation and teamwork involved. There is some teamwork, it's just there's been little communication, and we need to get a weekly time slot arranged. If you would like to join in the project as a advisor and as one of the earliest canon authors, I'd be happy to let you into our discord chat, currently scheduled for 12:00 AEST (see the other non-pinned post) this Saturday. Thanks for your contribution, and good to meet you.

    You can find my stories at Fanfiction.net here .

    You can also check out my fanfiction guest riffs at Library of the Dammed


    6 years 2 months ago #3 by DrBender
    • DrBender
    • DrBender's Avatar Topic Author


  • Posts: 50

  • Gender: Female
  • Birthdate: 07 Mar 1978
  • I'm more than happy to answer any questions about Sara in another topic.

    I'm also more than happy to join your Discord, I'll PM you my discord nick.

    The statement in my signature is false.
    6 years 2 months ago #4 by ShadowedSin
    • ShadowedSin
    • ShadowedSin's Avatar


  • Posts: 226

  • Gender: Female
  • Birthdate: Unknown
  • Just saw this project and I"m definitely interested in giving thoughts and consideration.

    "I can only conclude that I'm paying off karma at a vastly accelerated rate."
    -Commander Susan Ivanova, Earth Force, Babylon 5
    6 years 2 months ago #5 by lighttech
    • lighttech
    • lighttech's Avatar


  • Posts: 584

  • Gender: Unknown
  • Birthdate: Unknown
  • Hit me up if you need from the book input on some superhero RPG's like
    Heroes-Unlimited from Palladium games I have most of that set and others!

    Part of the WA Drow clan/ collective
    Author of Vantier and Shadowsblade on Bigcloset
    6 years 2 months ago #6 by konzill
    • konzill
    • konzill's Avatar


  • Posts: 500

  • Gender: Unknown
  • Birthdate: Unknown
  • My favourite Supers RPG is definitely Marvel Heroic Roleplaying which uses the Cortex+ rules. Unfortunately, it did not Meet Marvel's sales expectations and the license was terminated after less than a year in print. When they pulled it they did so with a vengeance, so much so that the Margret Weiss had to remove all mention of the system off their website and could not even offer character sheets or other free pdf resources anymore. Hopefully, the next iteration of Cortex+, due out soon, will give good support for superhero gaming too.

    Then there is also the Wearing the Cape game which is a FATE variant based on a novel series. Originally the Author had indented to use Cortex+ but that fell through, for business reasons.

    There are also several other RPG's which support Supers gaming:

    Savage Worlds: personally I don't like the system. The big problem is that the system doesn't scale well, so you can only really build street level supers with it. Most members of Team Kimba would be nigh impossible to build in Savage Worlds

    GURPS: The system that has a supplement for everything, as has support for supers for a very long time, and does them quite well. GURPS is more of a rules-heavy game and is somewhat concerned in consistently simulating reality.
    6 years 2 months ago - 6 years 2 months ago #7 by Schol-R-LEA
    • Schol-R-LEA
    • Schol-R-LEA's Avatar


  • Posts: 1766

  • Gender: Unknown
  • Birthdate: 24 Oct 1968
  • I extensively used HERO System 3rd ed. (also called Champions in the version bundled with a pre-made superheroic campaign world), ages and ages ago (long enough ago that 3rd Ed. was still a thing, really). This was in addition to over a decade of playing AD&D on and off, as well as other games ranging from CofC to Cyberpunk 2020 to most of the Old WOD 2nd ed. games (particularly V:tM and M:tA), to Stormbringer!, to ... well, can you see what my screen name is, can't you, Citizen? ( Trust the Computer. The Computer is Your Friend! )

    However, HERO is a pretty dice-heavy system, and moderately rule-heavy if reasonably open-ended. When I was looking at systems a couple of years ago for my "Fast Times at Whateley Academy" tabletop campaign (which unfortunately never got off the ground), I needed a system which novice players could pick up readily, and after some asking around settled on vanilla FATE System. I never got to see how it worked in practice, however.

    Out, damnéd Spot! Bad Doggy!
    Last Edit: 6 years 2 months ago by Schol-R-LEA.
    6 years 2 months ago #8 by DrBender
    • DrBender
    • DrBender's Avatar Topic Author


  • Posts: 50

  • Gender: Female
  • Birthdate: 07 Mar 1978
  • Wow, I did forget a few, thanks for your input guys!

    I never did get to play the Cortex Marvel game, though I used to have the ooooold 80's game somewhere. Not great for character creation, though.

    Heroes Unlimited... Palladium games are really, really bad if your group has problems if some PCs are just flat-out better than others and HU is no exception. Also, the creator and the community are terrible but that's an outside consideration.

    I had a look at Hero System 6e, it really doesn't scale as well as M&M or BESM and fractional point systems are a big turn-off for me. That was, like, the first thing I modded in DnD3e's skill system.

    The statement in my signature is false.
    6 years 2 months ago #9 by ShadowedSin
    • ShadowedSin
    • ShadowedSin's Avatar


  • Posts: 226

  • Gender: Female
  • Birthdate: Unknown
  • My gaming experience is primary in 3.5 and 5e Dungeons and Dragons. I also own several different splats for Chronicles of Darkness as well as games including CthulhuTech, Legend of the Five Rings and more.

    I've developed a few different dice systems, and I have one on my own RPG which is pretty simplistic IMO. I have not run superhero games, but honestly, a lot of World of Darkness borders on Superheroes especially the games like Changeling and more.

    "I can only conclude that I'm paying off karma at a vastly accelerated rate."
    -Commander Susan Ivanova, Earth Force, Babylon 5
    6 years 2 months ago #10 by CrazyMinh
    • CrazyMinh
    • CrazyMinh's Avatar


  • Posts: 758

  • Gender: Male
  • Birthdate: Unknown
  • Hey Dr. Bender, would you be interested in writing a Team-Kimba- perspective introcution to the RPG?? Like, having them playing it while cracking jokes??? We need someone who was on the canon team in those days to do something like that, and I haven't been able to find the profiles of any other 1st Gen canon authors from those days. Please???

    You can find my stories at Fanfiction.net here .

    You can also check out my fanfiction guest riffs at Library of the Dammed


    6 years 2 months ago #11 by CrazyMinh
    • CrazyMinh
    • CrazyMinh's Avatar


  • Posts: 758

  • Gender: Male
  • Birthdate: Unknown
  • ShadowedSin wrote: Just saw this project and I"m definitely interested in giving thoughts and consideration.


    If you want, I'd be happy to invite you to the team. We need as many people as we can get. Just make sure you stick to the guidlines.. Day after tommorow there's a discord chat we're having about how to get organised. Hop on at 12:00 AEST. I've posted the international times on the RPG discussion thread.

    You can find my stories at Fanfiction.net here .

    You can also check out my fanfiction guest riffs at Library of the Dammed


    6 years 2 months ago - 6 years 2 months ago #12 by Malady
    • Malady
    • Malady's Avatar


  • Posts: 3893

  • Gender: Unknown
  • Birthdate: Unknown
  • CrazyMinh wrote: Hey Dr. Bender, would you be interested in writing a Team-Kimba- perspective introcution to the RPG?? Like, having them playing it while cracking jokes??? We need someone who was on the canon team in those days to do something like that, and I haven't been able to find the profiles of any other 1st Gen canon authors from those days. Please???


    Like, I'd think we'd want the Lit Chix to be the introducers, 'cause we've actually seen them gaming... See Clue of the Unseen Switch ... *shrugs*

    Have they actually gamed more than the actual Whateley gaming club??
    Last Edit: 6 years 2 months ago by Malady.
    6 years 2 months ago #13 by Kristin Darken
    • Kristin Darken
    • Kristin Darken's Avatar


  • Posts: 3898

  • Gender: Unknown
  • Birthdate: Unknown
  • The Whateley Gaming Club is more likely to have played games to their 'conclusion.' The Lit Chix? As with all things, the Lit Chix are very meta. They're more likely to change games from week to week to try something new and evaluate it...

    Fate guard you and grant you a Light to brighten your Way.
    6 years 2 months ago #14 by DrBender
    • DrBender
    • DrBender's Avatar Topic Author


  • Posts: 50

  • Gender: Female
  • Birthdate: 07 Mar 1978
  • I'm willing to find some time to do that, yes.

    The statement in my signature is false.
    6 years 2 months ago #15 by ShadowedSin
    • ShadowedSin
    • ShadowedSin's Avatar


  • Posts: 226

  • Gender: Female
  • Birthdate: Unknown
  • Yes, if I can get the energy and the determination I might be able too. I'm slowly working on Part 4 of Scald-Crow. However, my HRT treatments leave me heavily depressed as of late hence my sudden disappearance on the site.

    "I can only conclude that I'm paying off karma at a vastly accelerated rate."
    -Commander Susan Ivanova, Earth Force, Babylon 5
    6 years 2 months ago #16 by konzill
    • konzill
    • konzill's Avatar


  • Posts: 500

  • Gender: Unknown
  • Birthdate: Unknown
  • Kristin Darken wrote: The Whateley Gaming Club is more likely to have played games to their 'conclusion.' The Lit Chix? As with all things, the Lit Chix are very meta. They're more likely to change games from week to week to try something new and evaluate it...


    Maybe games like The Quiet Year, Fiasco or Microscope would be more their speed
    Powered by Kunena Forum