Question Dr. Diabolik

He's an A-list supervillain with an optimistic agenda.

He's only appeared in stories as an incidental character, but he's been talked about a lot by his children.

Who is the real person behind the glimpses we've seen so far?

The wiki describes him as the top range B list villain.

Technically speaking, the wiki labels him as a high B-list villain. The A-list includes people who start earthquakes and volcanoes and leave devastation in their wake. Dr. Diabolik attacks entire cities, but when he leaves the cities are still standing.

EDIT: Ninja'd

Well yes, Dr. D is basically nice. Driven and goal orientated, but nice.

Nice?

I sure as hell wouldn't want him showing up, even Jadis admits her father's kill count is in the multi-thousands.

He is a somewhat functioning nutbar! Sure, he thinks he is doing it for the greater good, but he is one of those people who think that any evil, if done for the greater good, is good. The Nazi party in Germany believed the same thing, look how that turned out.

(Literally, everything they did was for the greater good of Germany, that's why they were so bad, everything was logically planned out, and there was really smart people doing it. The whole war was to give 'living space' to the German state, to allow them to grow enough food to feed themselves, it's just that, the plan called for the extermination of all the Ukranian peasants already on that land in order to free it up for German farmers ...

Really the most horrifying thing about the German Nazi party is how meticulous and well planned everything was, by people who really thought they were doing the right thing, but anyone that was not 'there people' wasn't included in the plans, other then as obsticals to be removed.)

I thought that the A, B etc. listing was based on how many casualties were expected. Dr. Diabolik tries to minimize casualties, but he accepts that there will be "collateral damage".

amratner wrote: I thought that the A, B etc. listing was based on how many casualties were expected. Dr. Diabolik tries to minimize casualties, but he accepts that there will be "collateral damage".

Yes, and anyone who considers "a few casualties" is just "collateral damage" is not a nice person. Nice people find different solutions. I'm not saying only cruel bastards allow collateral damage to result in death. Armed forces leaders have to do that all the time. But if you are not in a life or death situation to start with and your first plan results in just a few dead civilians, "nice" is not the adjective for you.

Presumably, Dr. D doesn't HAVE to invade cities and end up with dead civilians. But he proceeds from there any way. Not nice.

Phoenix Spiritus wrote: Really the most horrifying thing about the German Nazi party is how meticulous and well planned everything was, by people who really thought they were doing the right thing, but anyone that was not 'there people' wasn't included in the plans, other then as obsticals to be removed.)

Just as a point of dispute, my understanding is that Nazi efficiency, much like the perceived efficiency of the Japanese economy in their recovery after World War II, was a combination of extreme measures, deceptive statistics, and a fair amount of romanticism. The sheer cold-bloodedness of their planning is true, but the actual plans suffered from a great deal of political in-fighting and decisions made according to ideology rather than good principles.

As regards Dr. Diabolik, he strikes me as the sort of person who has decided what is best for humanity and that it will be implemented whether they like it or not. The Superheroes Anonymous series of books refers to this as "Supervillain Syndrome" and I'm sure the Whateley Universe has an equivalent name. Honestly, that does call back to the Nazis, the idea that a particular ideological point can and must be forced upon people with the attendant problem that said point is never really properly debated, so you might have someone who decides that everyone must be vaccinated against smallpox, and deploys clouds of nanobots to implement it or you might get someone who believes that women just get uglier after age 16, and therefore spreads a plague that prevents physical or mental development past that point. And, of course, they believe that sacrifices are regrettable but necessary, albeit generally only if it's them not making the sacrifice. And, of course, said people might be entirely wrong about their ideology or have the wrong idea of implementation. Just look at China's Great Leap Forward in our history.

Overall, I see Dr. Diabolik as a potentially sympathetic character, but of course, ultimately flawed and probably not redeemable. Much like the vivisectionists of the past, the future will likely laud the fruits of some of his actions, but deplore the methods and keep him vilified.

It's called "Galahad Syndrome" in the WU.

There's no mention of Dr. Diabolik being an Exemplar, so it's not clear whether he would suffer from it to the same extent than than any other baseline does.

Have to agree about the death-toll's. No power-broker in any country has clean hands.

The super-villain's are just more up-front about it.

FuzzyBoots wrote:

Phoenix Spiritus wrote: Really the most horrifying thing about the German Nazi party is how meticulous and well planned everything was, by people who really thought they were doing the right thing, but anyone that was not 'there people' wasn't included in the plans, other then as obsticals to be removed.)

Just as a point of dispute, my understanding is that Nazi efficiency, much like the perceived efficiency of the Japanese economy in their recovery after World War II, was a combination of extreme measures, deceptive statistics, and a fair amount of romanticism. The sheer cold-bloodedness of their planning is true, but the actual plans suffered from a great deal of political in-fighting and decisions made according to ideology rather than good principles.

You forgot wishful thinking, rose coloured glasses and planning assuming the enemy is going to do what you mean them to do.

Also Hitler being a nutbar didn't help. Seriously, the British command gave up on trying to kill Hitler, because having him there overruling excellent Generals and great plans to make them follow his poorer ones and ludicrous timetables was better for the British war effort. Seriously, most of the attempted Hitler assassinations where the German High Command trying to get rid of him so they could get on with fighting the war properly.

Just because their plans where bad doesn't stop the horror about how meticulous they where about planning thier atrocities.

And cut.
Enough about the nazi's, unless you want a ten page essay, Chicago Style, on their efficiency, idiocies, mistakes and other things from a history major who got into history by studying WW2 in his spare time.

Domoviye wrote: And cut.
Enough about the nazi's, unless you want a ten page essay, Chicago Style, on their efficiency, idiocies, mistakes and other things from a history major who got into history by studying WW2 in his spare time.

So ...

Dr. Dad seems to be a rather good single father for all his Supervillian problems, do we think bi-polar or incredibly good at compartmentalisation?

Make it a series of mutant stories.

I think part of it is that he hires extremely competent people and allows them to do their job, without anything but macromanagement. Look at the staff of Chez Diabolik.

"Well, of course I didn't know that in second grade! Even my parents didn't know, and believe me, they would have raised hell if they had known their children were going to school with the kids of a known mutant supervillain. I’m not sure if SHE knew that, back then.”

“What’d she do that was so slick, Ayles?” Chaka asked. “I can’t tell shit from what she put on her MID.”

excerpted from Bek's Chasing the Dragon.
so yup, Dr. Diabolik is a mutant, by canon.

Phoenix Spiritus wrote: Dr. Dad seems to be a rather good single father for all his Supervillian problems, do we think bi-polar or incredibly good at compartmentalisation?

I suspect that part of it is also that his children are probably a lot like him, whether by genetics or upbringing, and they probably do their own compartmentalization. What their father does with them is love, so they've learned to accept it as such. My headcanon is that he's likely been emotionally distant all of their lives, but ensures that all of their needs are met and they probably also get some surprisingly insightful and seemingly spontaneous gifts. How much of his attention to their lives is due to, as mentioned by others, him surrounding himself by competent people, is up in the air, but I could see both Jadis and Mal being frighteningly intelligent enough to see hiring attentive staff to be equivalent to their father showing his love to them even though he can't.

FuzzyBoots wrote:

Phoenix Spiritus wrote: Dr. Dad seems to be a rather good single father for all his Supervillian problems, do we think bi-polar or incredibly good at compartmentalisation?

I suspect that part of it is also that his children are probably a lot like him, whether by genetics or upbringing, and they probably do their own compartmentalization. What their father does with them is love, so they've learned to accept it as such. My headcanon is that he's likely been emotionally distant all of their lives, but ensures that all of their needs are met and they probably also get some surprisingly insightful and seemingly spontaneous gifts. How much of his attention to their lives is due to, as mentioned by others, him surrounding himself by competent people, is up in the air, but I could see both Jadis and Mal being frighteningly intelligent enough to see hiring attentive staff to be equivalent to their father showing his love to them even though he can't.

He is also likely very attentive when they are together, but that seems to be rare.

Dawnfyre wrote:

"Well, of course I didn't know that in second grade! Even my parents didn't know, and believe me, they would have raised hell if they had known their children were going to school with the kids of a known mutant supervillain. I’m not sure if SHE knew that, back then.”

“What’d she do that was so slick, Ayles?” Chaka asked. “I can’t tell shit from what she put on her MID.”

excerpted from Bek's Chasing the Dragon.
so yup, Dr. Diabolik is a mutant, by canon.

Excerpt from Silver Linings also by Bek

“If we can STOP deviant freaks like Dr. Diabolik before they start-”

“Doctor Diabolik is a mutant? First I’ve heard of it. My understanding is that he’s a devilishly intelligent, but otherwise baseline human. Or do you consider a well-developed intellect a deviant trait? Yes, I can tell that you do…”

“Doctor Diabolik isn’t the issue here-” Herb hedged.

“Then why’d you bring him up?”

So we have an impasse.

Until Bek or one of the Cabal states which he is, we have contradictory Canon statements.

We have contradictory statements? Just like it would be in universe, right? Why would we clear that up?

Let me point out that Dr. Diabolik apparently has never been captured. So whatever reason the Goodkinds have to consider him a mutant are probably inferences on shaky data -- and colored by their tendency to see mutants as "evil".

On the objective side, the only two abnormalities we know of are:
- Abnormally high intelligence
- Abnormally young appearance and health given his known age.

Which, you know, would both put my father in the same boat as Dr. Dad. So I don't think those are good enough to classify him as a mutant.

Sir Lee wrote: Let me point out that Dr. Diabolik apparently has never been captured. So whatever reason the Goodkinds have to consider him a mutant are probably inferences on shaky data -- and colored by their tendency to see mutants as "evil".

On the objective side, the only two abnormalities we know of are:
- Abnormally high intelligence
- Abnormally young appearance and health given his known age.

Which, you know, would both put my father in the same boat as Dr. Dad. So I don't think those are good enough to classify him as a mutant.

Or... your father is a mutant.

I'm very happy with the tone this discussion has taken. Yes, Dr. Diabolik IS a dangerous person, and what he does is NOT laudable. That was sort of the entire point of the character; Jadis is stuck with a father she loves, but whose methods she deplores, yet can't do anything about. Jadis knows that her father loves her, but God alone knows what he'd do if she ever turned on him.

By the way, since it's come up, the distinction between an A-list and a B-list supervillain is that it's decided that that individual poses a material threat to International Stability or the overall welfare of the peoples of the Earth. The decision to place an individual on the 'Global Threat' list is made by the UN Security Council. Extreme measures are instituted to deny them haven or assistance. Full-time international strike forces are assembled to bring that threat to ground. Local militaries are mobilized to deal with them as soon as they are recognized as being active in that jurisdiction. Kill on Identification orders are in place in all jurisdictions. Nations knowingly providing asylum will be penalized. Financial institutions doing business with them will have their ENTIRE holdings confiscated, pending a hearing. Of course, this is all very expensive, in terms of money, manpower and materials, so the Security Council doesn't rubber stamp the A-List on anyone who's being annoying internationally. Dr. Dad has been mentioned a few times, but so far he's managed to stay shy of the A-List

And cleverly not answering the question.

That is something the CC is known for. They also make excellent use of unreliable narrators.

Sir Lee wrote: Let me point out that Dr. Diabolik apparently has never been captured. So whatever reason the Goodkinds have to consider him a mutant are probably inferences on shaky data -- and colored by their tendency to see mutants as "evil".

On the objective side, the only two abnormalities we know of are:
- Abnormally high intelligence
- Abnormally young appearance and health given his known age.

Which, you know, would both put my father in the same boat as Dr. Dad. So I don't think those are good enough to classify him as a mutant.

The SMIILE agenda stands for Space Migration, Intelligence Increase, Life Extension.

He is known to be experimenting with Solon, which boosts intelligence, without being addictve. ( As long as you don't mind becoming stupid again, when you stop taking it...)

This would also fit in really well with his atitude towards his employees. He's playing an extremely long-term strategy...

Bek D Corbin wrote: I'm very happy with the tone this discussion has taken. Yes, Dr. Diabolik IS a dangerous person, and what he does is NOT laudable. That was sort of the entire point of the character; Jadis is stuck with a father she loves, but whose methods she deplores, yet can't do anything about. Jadis knows that her father loves her, but God alone knows what he'd do if she ever turned on him.

This, to me, plays into the real world. To many times people kinda demand a clear cut individual. Humans are complex individuals and can display many different facets of themselves. By playing on one side it makes the individual less of a person, one dimensional. It shocks us when we find out that we don't know the person that we grew up with. To hear how a person was back before, or during our lives. The secret side that a person can have. It shakes the foundation that we once believed.

Let people guess, demand that the person is one or the other. Many a person have been upset to find out that someone they read about was not who they thought they were. To demand that that person fits into one category makes them nothing but a one sided caricature of who they are. And if people don't find the answer that they want they dream up their own hypothesis that fits their needs never wanting to believe they were wrong.

Not everything has an answer. We just demand one and become upset when we don't have it.

Another thought to the Canon Cabal's approach to this character:

The only time we've seen Dr.Diabolik directly is in the Silver Linings story.

Every other report has been either hearsay, or biased by the reporter's personal viewpoint.

It's a really nice writing technique, as a way of indirectly telling a story, or indirectly communicating the prejudices held by the person, that is describing Dr .Diabolik.

Adds nicely to the meta-story-telling.

I wouldn't be surprised to learn Dr. D purposefully puts out rumors of his being a mutant and being a baseline in order to confuse his enemies.

Warning ... possible spoiler ...

If you haven't read Chapter 2 of The Book of Darwin then this is a spoiler


















... Doc Diabolik makes an extended appearance. We learn a lot about him as an individual.

Phoenix Spiritus wrote: I sure as hell wouldn't want him showing up, even Jadis admits her father's kill count is in the multi-thousands.

What's interesting is that he might be responsible for all those deaths he might not fit the legal definition of murderer. Only that of manslaughter.

NJM1564 wrote:

Phoenix Spiritus wrote: I sure as hell wouldn't want him showing up, even Jadis admits her father's kill count is in the multi-thousands.

What's interesting is that he might be responsible for all those deaths he might not fit the legal definition of murderer. Only that of manslaughter.

Doesn't work. Any death that is the direct result of an action taken in the commission of a felony, ANY felony, is automatically kicked up to Murder One

Bek D Corbin wrote:

NJM1564 wrote:

Phoenix Spiritus wrote: I sure as hell wouldn't want him showing up, even Jadis admits her father's kill count is in the multi-thousands.

What's interesting is that he might be responsible for all those deaths he might not fit the legal definition of murderer. Only that of manslaughter.

Doesn't work. Any death that is the direct result of an action taken in the commission of a felony, ANY felony, is automatically kicked up to Murder One

I believe that's the law in the United States, other countries have different laws.

In Australia it would probably be murder because he knew that people would die from his actions, and did it anyway. That makes the deaths pre-meditated and therefore murder.

It's never as black-and-white as you think.

I was re-reading Peter Watts' Rifters trilogy, and thinking again about Dr. Diabolik.

In the Rifters trilogy, there was an agency that was set-up to deal with threats to the survival of the human species. Sometimes they were having to deal with natural disasters, sometimes it was outbreaks of disease, but they always had to act for the greatest good. "Kill 10 people to save 100."

During one of the stories it becomes especially horrific when they have to deal with an outbreak of an incurable, protean, cross-species infection, that can only be dealt with by incinerating the area. Kill 100,000, to protect the entire ecosphere.

One of the themes that underlies Peter Watts' stories, is how to retain your humanity, when having to deal with actions that would make you a monster, even when you're performing those actions with the best of intentions, and for the best of reasons.

I can't help but wonder, if the Doctor Reaper-type of existential threat is one of the reasons that Dr.Diabolik became the super-villain that he is.

(I've also been re-reading the Worm series, which covers some of the same themes. Chewy ideas. )

Mister D wrote: It's never as black-and-white as you think.

Well, people died because of something he did and he knew that that was going to happen. So under most definitions, he's clearly he's a murderer?

Whether he should be condemned or hated or something because of that, depends on your personal stance on things, but if you have that definition of "murder", then he's a murderer.

forums.spacebattles.com/threads/why-do-p...-hard-choices.337338

If there was a way to achieve everlasting peace without sacrificing that city, even if it took 10,000 years of continuous effort, THAT would have been the truly "hard" and correct decision, and sacrificing the city was in fact the easy way out. Killing is often portrayed as "hard", but that is actually cheap drama. Not killing people is hard.

...

... Rifters and Worm... Need more context, but for Rifters, "incurable, protean, cross-species infection"... Quarantine doesn't work? Or just not trying hard enough??

I know a bit about Worm, but not what precisely you're talking about...

Of course, the ironic thing is... Reaper claims that he's killing people to save humanity. It might even be true, from his point of view. But he never explains how he arrived at this conclusion, or why the population shrinkage has to be done in such violent fashion (as opposed to, say, a mass sterilization program), so the only evaluation another party can have is "mass-murdering insane bastard."

Absolutely correct!

Sir Lee wrote: Of course, the ironic thing is... Reaper claims that he's killing people to save humanity. It might even be true, from his point of view. But he never explains how he arrived at this conclusion, or why the population shrinkage has to be done in such violent fashion (as opposed to, say, a mass sterilization program), so the only evaluation another party can have is "mass-murdering insane bastard."

Clearly it's because he watched to much Gurren Lagann and thinks that anti-spirals are going to drop the moon on the world once the population exceededs 10,000. ;/

Malady wrote: I know a bit about Worm, but not what precisely you're talking about...

The best specific examples are unfortunately spoilers, but "doing horrible things for the right reasons" might as well be the subtitle for the series.

Arcanist Lupus wrote:

Malady wrote: I know a bit about Worm, but not what precisely you're talking about...

The best specific examples are unfortunately spoilers, but "doing horrible things for the right reasons" might as well be the subtitle for the series.

A beautifully apt description.

It's also a good literary example of what happens when you give neo-monkeys an increased amount of power, but without the enlightenment to use it differently. You get the same xenophobic pack behaviour, but now using meta-human superpowers...

It's interesting to compare how the authors writing in the Whateley-verse have approached this issue, eg, Deidricks and Galahad syndromes. A different approache to the same narrative problems.

Another interesting example that covers the same issues can be found at http://strongfemaleprotagonist.com

Malady wrote:

Mister D wrote: It's never as black-and-white as you think.

Well, people died because of something he did and he knew that that was going to happen. So under most definitions, he's clearly he's a murderer?

Whether he should be condemned or hated or something because of that, depends on your personal stance on things, but if you have that definition of "murder", then he's a murderer.

To misquote Stalin, "The death of one person is a tragedy, but the death of millions is just a statistic."

Or to misquote Byron, "Kill one man and you're a murderer. Kill 10,000 and you're a king."

forums.spacebattles.com/threads/why-do-p...-hard-choices.337338

If there was a way to achieve everlasting peace without sacrificing that city, even if it took 10,000 years of continuous effort, THAT would have been the truly "hard" and correct decision, and sacrificing the city was in fact the easy way out. Killing is often portrayed as "hard", but that is actually cheap drama. Not killing people is hard.

...

Nice find. TYVM.

Will chew through.

I am also reminded of the way the Richard Morgan used these themes in the Takeshi Kovacs novels.

... Rifters and Worm... Need more context, but for Rifters, "incurable, protean, cross-species infection"... Quarantine doesn't work? Or just not trying hard enough??

No, quarantine doesn't work. It infects soil bacteria, animals, and plants, and it spreads too quickly. To stop it infecting everything, the only option is fire.