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Question One part or two?

8 years 6 months ago #1 by elrodw
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    • Before posting Kayda 9, I thought about how to post it. The story was borderline of posting it as one part or two. Two or more parts gives the possibility of cliff-hanger and lots of "what if" and "would E really, REALLY do that?", and based on comments so far, the one-part story seems to have a lot less room for speculation or commentary or questions.

    So - my question is simple: would you rather have a multipart story with cliff-hanger, or a longer one-part story?
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    8 years 6 months ago #2 by sam105
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    • I liked it the way it is. If it had been longer I can see splitting it in two.
    8 years 6 months ago #3 by Malady
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    • Well, I'm fine with it... Where would it have been split, if it was split?

    Speculation... Hmm... What could be speculated on that I just haven't thought of? ... The town's too small and too filled with H1 for anyone to be jealous of Danny's catgirl form and try some mad science or magic in retaliation...
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    8 years 6 months ago #4 by mhalpern
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    • elrodw wrote: Before posting Kayda 9, I thought about how to post it. The story was borderline of posting it as one part or two. Two or more parts gives the possibility of cliff-hanger and lots of "what if" and "would E really, REALLY do that?", and based on comments so far, the one-part story seems to have a lot less room for speculation or commentary or questions.

    So - my question is simple: would you rather have a multipart story with cliff-hanger, or a longer one-part story?

    If it was longer splitting makes sense, as it is though Kayda 9 leaves us with plenty to speculate on, or to start speculation based on, it forms the foundation for the Gen 1 Y2 Kayda arc, provided just a tad more Gen 1 Y2 stuff it will be used as a jumping off point for much speculation.
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    8 years 6 months ago #5 by mhalpern
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    • Speculation: somehow the footage of Kayda's combat final (you all know which one I am referring to) gets leaked to the public, who misinterpret just about all of it.

    Speculation 2 Danny instinctively shifts to Danica when he sees things similar to said combat final.

    Speculation 3: it will take the Powers Testing people MUCH effort to test 3 out of 4 of Danny's forms.
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    8 years 6 months ago #6 by elrodw
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    • Malady wrote: Well, I'm fine with it... Where would it have been split, if it was split?

    Speculation... Hmm... What could be speculated on that I just haven't thought of? ... The town's too small and too filled with H1 for anyone to be jealous of Danny's catgirl form and try some mad science or magic in retaliation...


    It would have been split just after this little bit in Kayda's visions:

    The colonel heard my yells, and he wheeled his horse toward me, his eyes widening. "That one!" the colonel roared, pointing his saber at me. "She is the leader! Kill her!"

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    8 years 6 months ago - 8 years 6 months ago #7 by Malady
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    • elrodw wrote:

    Malady wrote: Well, I'm fine with it... Where would it have been split, if it was split?


    It would have been split just after this little bit in Kayda's visions:

    The colonel heard my yells, and he wheeled his horse toward me, his eyes widening. "That one!" the colonel roared, pointing his saber at me. "She is the leader! Kill her!"


    Interesting! What would I have speculated if it stopped there... Hmm... If she had died during the vision quest, I guess she would have died outside the dream-thing as well. Then after that, Kayda is actually Wakan Tanka taking over Kayda's body and trying the best she can to act like Kayda?

    Or some loss in magic ability or something, if not total death.

    But, we know she has a shield... So I guess the important thing would be if she failed in protecting her people... Which would be a different learning experience than what she got... Yeah, I would have bet she'd survive the vision quest, and just speculate on what she gets out of it.

    ... Was the vision quest really necessary? Could she have learned the same stuff, without being in so much danger? Likely yes... As most/some of it was semantics, "What is Prosperity"... And the rest of it is about how contracts work... But this way, it sticks, and is faster? 'Cause dream-time is faster than realtime?

    And she gets Animal Transform out of that. Which, might have been a power that makes sense to speculate, but it's a surprise when it happens?
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    Last Edit: 8 years 6 months ago by Malady.
    8 years 6 months ago #8 by Valentine
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    • I'm not a fan of hangers on cliffs. Too often they are forced, interrupt the flow of the story, and generally don't leave the reader guessing.

    For example in this case, while we wouldn't know the immediate outcome, we know that Kayda is still alive in Gen 2, so her survival isn't really in doubt.
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    8 years 6 months ago - 8 years 6 months ago #9 by Sir Lee
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    • Hmmm. It all depends on how the story was planned. In this particular case, I don't think the split point counted as a big cliffhanger (I mean, Kayda was in spirit-world and had a shield, so how much danger was she in, really?), so joining them did not spoil the drama.

    But if there was a considerable effort into building up the drama/cliffhangers for the break points, joining the parts subtracts a bit from the emotion. Case in point: "Christmas Elves", which was published in a single batch. Reading the story, it's quite obvious that there was a point that was intended as a big cliffhanger, and two other ones that could possibly further split the story in four parts. I think of this story as a play in four acts, which would benefit from an intermission between Act 2 and Act 3 -- but the acts weren't even labeled as such.

    If you are curious, try rereading it imagining chapter breaks (with a full week of nail-biting and forum flamewars, at least in that middle break) after the following sentences:

    1. WITCHY GODDESS> Here's the plan...
    2. She had entered the circle for nothing, and her friend was dead.
    3. "Of course you realize… this means WAR!"

    ...and tell me if you think it was not planned.
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    Last Edit: 8 years 6 months ago by Sir Lee.
    8 years 6 months ago - 8 years 6 months ago #10 by Phoenix Spiritus
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    • So, I'm probably going to be thought of as wierd, but here goes.

    I've been binge watching Supergirl, and that every episode ends with a cliff-hanger, even if they have to put two minutes of next weeks episode into this one to do it, is seriously driving me nuts!

    If you have a story that needs two parts to tell, fine, have a cliff hanger, but it's wrong to your audience to slam completely unrelated material against a good story just to get the cliff hanger. Just let a good story stand on its own, and let the good stories bring back your audience, not gimmicky hooks.

    Another point would be my current cliffhanger, where I left off One Woe. I really, really didn't want to stop the story there. It's a great cliffhanger, don't get me wrong, but I really didn't want the readers left for weeks wondering what had happened to one of the original Team Kimba members, I'm worried that people will stop reading the stories because I left a cliffhanger there, they think Hank's dead and decide to go "screw you, you killed my favourite character, I'm out"

    So, there's my screwy thoughts on cliffhangers.
    Last Edit: 8 years 6 months ago by Phoenix Spiritus.
    8 years 6 months ago #11 by Malady
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    • Phoenix Spiritus wrote: Another point would be my current cliffhanger, where I left off One Woe. I really, really didn't want to stop the story there. It's a great cliffhanger, don't get me wrong, but I really didn't want the readers left for weeks wondering what had happened to one of the original Team Kimba members, I'm worried that people will stop reading the stories because I left a cliffhanger there, they think Hank's dead and decide to go "screw you, you killed my favourite character, I'm out"


    Stick a thing that goes "Hank's story continues in ?????????" Or something, to assure future readers of his survival?
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    8 years 6 months ago #12 by mhalpern
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    • Phoenix Spiritus wrote: So, I'm probably going to be thought of as wierd, but here goes.

    I've been binge watching Supergirl, and that every episode ends with a cliff-hanger, even if they have to put two minutes of next weeks episode into this one to do it, is seriously driving me nuts!

    If you have a story that needs two parts to tell, fine, have a cliff hanger, but it's wrong to your audience to slam completely unrelated material against a good story just to get the cliff hanger. Just let a good story stand on its own, and let the good stories bring back your audience, not gimmicky hooks.

    Another point would be my current cliffhanger, where I left off One Woe. I really, really didn't want to stop the story there. It's a great cliffhanger, don't get me wrong, but I really didn't want the readers left for weeks wondering what had happened to one of the original Team Kimba members, I'm worried that people will stop reading the stories because I left a cliffhanger there, they think Hank's dead and decide to go "screw you, you killed my favourite character, I'm out"

    So, there's my screwy thoughts on cliffhangers.


    But killing characters makes us question the effectiveness of plot armor....
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    8 years 6 months ago #13 by elrodw
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    • mhalpern wrote: But killing characters makes us question the effectiveness of plot armor....


    That line just caused a strange thought to crossed my mind - I wonder which author has the biggest 'body count' of Whateley people, including students, staff, faculty, etc. (Exclusive of the Halloween invasion - there were too many nameless security guards axed then.)
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    8 years 6 months ago - 8 years 6 months ago #14 by mhalpern
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    • elrodw wrote:

    mhalpern wrote: But killing characters makes us question the effectiveness of plot armor....


    That line just caused a strange thought to crossed my mind - I wonder which author has the biggest 'body count' of Whateley people, including students, staff, faculty, etc. (Exclusive of the Halloween invasion - there were too many nameless security guards axed then.)

    :whistle:
    Quick to the Wiki!


    *not going to look this second I have a Calc exam in the morning

    Also are we counting off screen and one offs? if so Birthday Brawl killed at least 20 people alone, I think, as for named characters, I think you've got the record, between Snaky 1 and 2 and their kills, to Apathy and Jamie
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    Last Edit: 8 years 6 months ago by mhalpern.
    8 years 6 months ago - 8 years 6 months ago #15 by Phoenix Spiritus
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    • elrodw wrote:

    mhalpern wrote: But killing characters makes us question the effectiveness of plot armor....


    That line just caused a strange thought to crossed my mind - I wonder which author has the biggest 'body count' of Whateley people, including students, staff, faculty, etc. (Exclusive of the Halloween invasion - there were too many nameless security guards axed then.)


    Define dead.

    No seriously, does falling into a hell dimension count as dead?Does dying to create Zombies that are then dispatched in Boston Brawl count? If so, there were hundreds of them in the sewers.

    Does being nameless count? If not, the Christmas stories where they totalled an office tower and also Norad C would have the highest death counts by far, just in "on screen deaths" alone, not thinking about how many people would have been in an office tower when it collapsed (hundreds? More then a thousand?)

    I think if we actually started counting up the dead it would just make everyone really depressed.
    Last Edit: 8 years 6 months ago by Phoenix Spiritus.
    8 years 6 months ago #16 by Phoenix Spiritus
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    • Malady wrote:

    Phoenix Spiritus wrote: Another point would be my current cliffhanger, where I left off One Woe. I really, really didn't want to stop the story there. It's a great cliffhanger, don't get me wrong, but I really didn't want the readers left for weeks wondering what had happened to one of the original Team Kimba members, I'm worried that people will stop reading the stories because I left a cliffhanger there, they think Hank's dead and decide to go "screw you, you killed my favourite character, I'm out"


    Stick a thing that goes "Hank's story continues in ?????????" Or something, to assure future readers of his survival?


    Yeah, but then there is no dread.

    You'll see when the next part is released. I want the ambiguity, it's actually needed for the plot.
    8 years 6 months ago #17 by elrodw
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    • Phoenix Spiritus wrote:

    elrodw wrote:

    mhalpern wrote: But killing characters makes us question the effectiveness of plot armor....


    That line just caused a strange thought to crossed my mind - I wonder which author has the biggest 'body count' of Whateley people, including students, staff, faculty, etc. (Exclusive of the Halloween invasion - there were too many nameless security guards axed then.)


    Define dead.

    No seriously, does falling into a hell dimension count as dead?Does dying to create Zombies that are then dispatched in Boston Brawl count? If so, there were hundreds of them in the sewers.

    Does being nameless count? If not, the Christmas stories where they totalled an office tower and also Norad C would have the highest death counts by far, just in "on screen deaths" alone, not thinking about how many people would have been in an office tower when it collapsed (hundreds? More then a thousand?)

    I think if we actually started counting up the dead it would just make everyone really depressed.


    Note that I specifically constrained it to on-campus persons - faculty, staff, administration, students, security.
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    8 years 6 months ago #18 by Sir Lee
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    • Phoenix Spiritus wrote: Yeah, but then there is no dread.

    You'll see when the next part is released. I want the ambiguity, it's actually needed for the plot.

    If you are really worried about people leaving over your alleged killing of Hank... well, just finish the damn story and post it.
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    8 years 6 months ago #19 by Phoenix Spiritus
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    • Sir Lee wrote:

    Phoenix Spiritus wrote: Yeah, but then there is no dread.

    You'll see when the next part is released. I want the ambiguity, it's actually needed for the plot.

    If you are really worried about people leaving over your alleged killing of Hank... well, just finish the damn story and post it.


    I'm not in charge of posting schedules ;)
    8 years 6 months ago #20 by Kristin Darken
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    • Ya... Phoenix may be sensitive to your concerns of Hank being dead and you're left at a cliffhanger... but that publishing witch (hmm, verify that this is the right five letter word) is going to milk it for all its worth. And then, when you're sitting at the cliffhanger on the next Kayda, the next Imp, and one or two other pieces in the wings... then we'll deal with Hank's blehblehbleh ble blehebleb blehbleh. Or whatever happens in the next part of that story.
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    8 years 6 months ago #21 by Valentine
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    • elrodw wrote:

    mhalpern wrote: But killing characters makes us question the effectiveness of plot armor....


    That line just caused a strange thought to crossed my mind - I wonder which author has the biggest 'body count' of Whateley people, including students, staff, faculty, etc. (Exclusive of the Halloween invasion - there were too many nameless security guards axed then.)


    Probably you. Or you and EE.

    Consider that Folder, and Eric didn't die. Whereas Apathy, Heyoka, and the security guard Kayda killed did die. I guess we can consider Bloodworm dead. Nobody and Backdraft died during Halloween, Do the Loose Cannons count?
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    8 years 6 months ago #22 by Valentine
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    • Phoenix Spiritus wrote: So, I'm probably going to be thought of as wierd, but here goes.

    I've been binge watching Supergirl, and that every episode ends with a cliff-hanger, even if they have to put two minutes of next weeks episode into this one to do it, is seriously driving me nuts!

    If you have a story that needs two parts to tell, fine, have a cliff hanger, but it's wrong to your audience to slam completely unrelated material against a good story just to get the cliff hanger. Just let a good story stand on its own, and let the good stories bring back your audience, not gimmicky hooks.

    Another point would be my current cliffhanger, where I left off One Woe. I really, really didn't want to stop the story there. It's a great cliffhanger, don't get me wrong, but I really didn't want the readers left for weeks wondering what had happened to one of the original Team Kimba members, I'm worried that people will stop reading the stories because I left a cliffhanger there, they think Hank's dead and decide to go "screw you, you killed my favourite character, I'm out"

    So, there's my screwy thoughts on cliffhangers.


    Despite my previous comments on cliffhangers, the one you left us on actually fits. While we, at least I, doubt that Hank is going to die, we (I) don't really know what is going to happen, how he gets rescued, or what you have planned. And hey, you might just kill him off.
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    8 years 6 months ago #23 by Sir Lee
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    • Revisiting this topic... a suggestion:

    If any author finds themself in Elrod's dilemma (split or not to split?), I recommend marking the site of the planned split with some sort of subheading -- you can call it Part, Chapter, Act or whatever. Just make it clear to the reader that a longer pause in that place is not only allowed, but somewhat encouraged.
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    8 years 6 months ago #24 by Kristin Darken
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    • I'm generally trying to establish a standard usage with Parts and Chapters. It might take going back through some of the old material to recategorize some of them but if it helps, it will be worth the effort. These would be used as:

    1. Chapters - Chapters are part of a whole in which the primary structure of the whole uses a plot framework that works for the complete story but not necessarily as effectively within the parts. In a story (novel) divided by Chapters... each chapter is more a division of setting or character than plots. As such, a chapter might begin in a new time (hours/days after the end of the previous one), in a new location, or with its narrative perspective different from previous or later chapters. Early chapters may consist of little more than exposition or introduction of conflict... without any real peak in action or resolution. Later chapters may have ONLY action or resolution, without any exposition or lead up to them.

    2. Parts - Parts, on the other hand, are defined as more self-contained sub-sections of the whole. A Part should have a beginning, middle, and end... with its own conflict and resolutions. Not all parts may peak at the same level... and indeed, later Parts SHOULD peak higher as the various plots interact to lead to one central conflict and the action that resolves it. Parts will generally make the overall story longer, as there is a need for some reintroduction of setting and exposition (initial static state) with each Part... but as such, can be read separate from other sections in a way that chapters of a novel might not be.


    No one should be using Acts unless they want to get into script work... which theoretically could happen. But I think we've got some oddball section types too.
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    8 years 6 months ago #25 by Valentine
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    • What about Cantos?
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    8 years 6 months ago #26 by Arcanist Lupus
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    • Generally speaking, I consider there to be two kinds of cliffhangers. The first kind is a cliff hanger where something dramatic happens, but the author doesn't tell you what it is until you turn the page. These are popular with bad thrillers, and I consider then to be terrible - partially because there is no guarantee that the dramatic event is actually important (e.g. "The door opened with a loud creek. .... It was his mother, bringing him cookies"), and partially because this type of cliffhanger often takes place in the middle of a scene, which makes breaking the chapter there awkward.

    The much better form of cliffhanger is when important game changing events or information is revealed, but the chapter ends before the full implications of the event are explored (e.g. the discovery of the dead body of a main character). These are better because there is no chance of a cliff hanger cop out, and because the chapter break gives the reader time to consider the effects of the game changer.
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    8 years 6 months ago #27 by Malady
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    • Phoenix Spiritus wrote:

    Malady wrote:

    Phoenix Spiritus wrote: Another point would be my current cliffhanger, where I left off One Woe. I really, really didn't want to stop the story there. It's a great cliffhanger, don't get me wrong, but I really didn't want the readers left for weeks wondering what had happened to one of the original Team Kimba members, I'm worried that people will stop reading the stories because I left a cliffhanger there, they think Hank's dead and decide to go "screw you, you killed my favourite character, I'm out"


    Stick a thing that goes "Hank's story continues in ?????????" Or something, to assure future readers of his survival?


    Yeah, but then there is no dread.

    You'll see when the next part is released. I want the ambiguity, it's actually needed for the plot.


    ... Hmm... How about replacing 'Hank' with "The Leanan" or 'Lily' or something? Although, that would be sort of non-sequitur... I guess there's no perfect solution...
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    8 years 6 months ago - 8 years 6 months ago #28 by Sir Lee
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    • What about "The story continues on..." or "Don't miss my next story, named..."
    Don't call me "Shirley." You will surely make me surly.
    Last Edit: 8 years 6 months ago by Sir Lee.
    8 years 6 months ago - 8 years 6 months ago #29 by mhalpern
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    • Arcanist Lupus wrote: Generally speaking, I consider there to be two kinds of cliffhangers. The first kind is a cliff hanger where something dramatic happens, but the author doesn't tell you what it is until you turn the page. These are popular with bad thrillers, and I consider then to be terrible - partially because there is no guarantee that the dramatic event is actually important (e.g. "The door opened with a loud creek. .... It was his mother, bringing him cookies"), and partially because this type of cliffhanger often takes place in the middle of a scene, which makes breaking the chapter there awkward.

    The much better form of cliffhanger is when important game changing events or information is revealed, but the chapter ends before the full implications of the event are explored (e.g. the discovery of the dead body of a main character). These are better because there is no chance of a cliff hanger cop out, and because the chapter break gives the reader time to consider the effects of the game changer.


    Third Kind


    around 1 to 4 min in... Best cliffhanger ever of all time
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    Last Edit: 8 years 6 months ago by mhalpern.
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