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8 years 5 months ago #1 by elrodw

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I don't know if it's just me, but it seems like our readership is waning. Comments on the forums seems to be down, views on stories are down, and comments on stories seem WAY down. Are we losing our audience?

Are we gaining or losing new registered members? Are the site stats showing a trend? Are we losing our readers? If so, how do we halt or reverse that trend? Are we linking? Making announcements? Do we have social media to help advertise new releases?

I'm finding that when I republish my tales on Big Closet, I get a lot more reads that SHOULD be on Whateley's website. That shouldn't be, IMHO.

Never give up, Never surrender! Captain Peter Quincy Taggert

8 years 5 months ago #2 by NeoMagus

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That is definitely worrisome...

... . . -.- / .--- ..- ... - .. -.-. . .-.-.- / .-.. --- ...- . / -- . .-. -.-. -.-- .-.-.- / .-- .- .-.. -.- / .... ..- -- -... .-.. -.-- / .-- .. - .... / -.-- --- ..- .-. / --. --- -.. .-.-.-

8 years 5 months ago #3 by Domoviye

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I've noticed it to. And I'll admit I've been part of the problem.
Not to sure how to increase viewers, but in the next few weeks I'll put a link to the site on my writing blog and a few other places that might help.
There might be some sites that link to online stories that could help. I'll look around on the weekend.

8 years 5 months ago #4 by Kristin Darken

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To be honest and quote numbers... it's true, the numbers are lower than they were. But not as much lower as it might seem from sparse conversations. And at the time they were higher, we were also posting 2 new 20-25k contents per week as well as rebuilding the story archive/library (which by itself involved a lot of posting, browsing to verify things posted right, and communications between those of us working on it).

The new site has been up for just over a year now.

In the last year, we have
2,089,408 page views, attributed to
509,882 sessions by
59,922 users.The average session hits
4.1 pages and remains onsite for
4 min, 57 secs. About
88.4% of visitors are return visitors, with
11.6% being 'new'.

Our session totals show as
61% American,
9.5% from the UK,
8.9% Canada. The rest of the top ten: Australia, Germany, Netherlands, New Zealand, Sweden, Finland, and Singapore.

Our user activity cycles, most likely as a result of the weekly scheduled releases. Graphed it looks like a sawtooth waveform, rising to a peak Monday nights and falling off to a low point around Thursday or Friday. Session-wise, its not uncommon to see 1800-2100 sessions within the 24 hrs following a content release, but only 2/3 of that midweek (1200-1400).

We have some 578 daily active users (people who typically visit within 24 hrs of their previous visit). The number who visit at least once per week is 2134. There are 3402 users who check at least twice per month and 6103 who visit only monthly.

Are things slower now than some other point? Hmm... yes. The past two months have had weekly peaks in sessions around 1400-1500 with dips down around 1k midweek. However, that is only about 100-150 below what it has been since June (when we were seeing peaks at 1600-1700 and low points at 1100-1200). And what we saw in June is fairly close to what we saw in November through January. It's just that March through May had a really active period, that pulled the whole average up.

So how does that compare to the old site?

Well, to some extent we can't compare the two because of the differences in how the site is navigated. However, straight up numbers of the last year of the old site (which excising the down time between, means we can compare the last two years). Oct '14 - Oct '15 on the old site with the above data from Oct '15 to Oct '16 on the new.

For the last year on the old site, we saw
2,293,829 page views, attributed to
852,130 sessions by
123,062 users.The average session hits
2.69 pages and remains onsite for
3 min, 11 secs. About
85.9% of visitors are return visitors, with
14.1% being 'new'.

The nationality breakdown there shows
63% US
9.5% UK
7.1% Canadian
And the rest of the top 10 are: Australia, Germany, New Zealand, Netherlands, Russia, Sweden, and Finland.

The active users show 946 daily users, 3373 weekly, 5595 over 14 days, and 10730 monthly.

The sessions and user numbers when graphed show the same weekly focused visitation, though showing a little more 'weekend' oriented reflecting our old posting policy. The fall off midweek isn't quite as marked however. There are multiple month periods where the peak and valley only show a couple hundred different values. But the daily sessions do show a little higher, being 1700-1900 at low point with peaks around 2000-2200. And admittedly, again, there are some really good peak numbers for the couple months we had a surplus and were running more than one piece per week.

Overall... it looks like (assuming we can trust the numbers compared from one site to the next without better details of the data - which isn't available because we don't require everyone to log in) we have lost about 20-30% of our active visitors in moving to the new site. But we only lost about 7% of our total page views in the process.... which means the people who are still around are more active and involved in the site. It's maybe useful to note that those high numbers on the old site were also much higher than the summer prior to that... and that I spent a couple hundred dollars on advertisements for August and Sept. that year (right before the data set I'm looking at). So maybe its time to do that again.

Fate guard you and grant you a Light to brighten your Way.

8 years 5 months ago #5 by Valentine

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With some trepidation I ask, is there any difference between when a Gen 1 and Gen 2 story is posted?

Don't Drick and Drive.

8 years 5 months ago #6 by Phoenix Spiritus

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Going by the page views for the stories, it seems more author then Generation, i.e. Bek wins no matter what she posts

8 years 5 months ago #7 by Astrodragon

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Is there any sort of policy or whatever on reposting stories to BigCloset?

There don't seem to be any Gen2 stories there, and maybe posting to an additional site would get us some more interest over here?

After all, there is no such thing as bad publicity (unless its your obituary...)

I love watching their innocent little faces smiling happily as they trip gaily down the garden path, before finding the pit with the rusty spikes.

8 years 5 months ago #8 by E. E. Nalley

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Well, it's painfully obvious to me. With Kristen's help to put up The Untimely Frost Wednesday evening. From that point it this morning I have 2 comments in the forum and one comment below the story and165 reads, and I'm not sure how many of those were me checking for comments at the bottom of the story. Call it 20.

Yesterday almost 24 hours later I put up the story crossposted on the Big Closet. As of this morning I have1119 views, 62 kudos and 12 comments.

I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.
Thomas Jefferson, to Archibald Stuart, 1791

8 years 5 months ago #9 by elrodw

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1) Astro - I generally wait at least a month. I've also started putting a 'pointer' to Whateleyacademy.net in the stories on BCTS - even editing the older ones.

2) EE - yeah, even after a month and a half or more on whateleyacademy.net, within a few days of posting the same story on BCTS, I get more view, far more kudos, and more in-line comments than the story had garnered here.

3) How do we change this and get more readers / comments?

Never give up, Never surrender! Captain Peter Quincy Taggert

8 years 5 months ago #10 by Astrodragon

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Hmm, I may put Blood Sisters up and see what happens.
With a link here, a la Elrod.

I love watching their innocent little faces smiling happily as they trip gaily down the garden path, before finding the pit with the rusty spikes.

8 years 5 months ago #11 by Morpheus

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I post stories to Big Closet about a week after they're posted here, and I always include a pointer link to this forum.

The waking world is but a dream.

8 years 5 months ago #12 by Nagrij

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E. E. Nalley wrote: Well, it's painfully obvious to me. With Kristen's help to put up The Untimely Frost Wednesday evening. From that point it this morning I have 2 comments in the forum and one comment below the story and165 reads, and I'm not sure how many of those were me checking for comments at the bottom of the story. Call it 20.

Yesterday almost 24 hours later I put up the story crossposted on the Big Closet. As of this morning I have1119 views, 62 kudos and 12 comments.

When Dim Prisons went up here, after being on BCTS for months, I despaired a bit... because the morning after numbers were something like 300 hits and 2 comments. A week later both were as high or almost as high as BCTS numbers during their initial spike; not bad for a story that's been out for awhile.

I wouldn't give up hope or do something radical just yet. It could just be that people don't read much during the middle of the week.

Not that I'm not saying we might have a problem, just that it might be nothing more than an audience difference.

www.patreon.com/Nagrij

If you like my writing, please consider helping me out, and see the rest of the tales I spin on Patreon.

8 years 5 months ago #13 by Sir Lee

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I think comparisons with BigCloset (and, for that matter, Fictionmania) are misleading. BC is a much bigger site, with a much wider public.
Here's the thing: most people don't check regularly more than a half-dozen websites -- and one of them is probably Facebook. So, the casual Whateley reader -- the one who is not really interested in the universe as a whole, but perhaps in one or two writers -- is unlikely to check this site regularly. If those popular writers (Bek, Morpheus, Elrod, E.E....) are known to repost their stories in the general-purpose sites, it makes the casual reader less likely to bother checking here.

This is particularly true for non-Whateley stories. There are people out there (I have seen comment threads in which they admit it) who like the author but don't follow Whateley, in part because they are intimidated by the size of the universe. So, they might be an Erinyes, or Heaven & Hell, or Care Givers fan... but not a Whateley fan. These people are highly unlikely to check this site. So, it's not surprising that E.E.'s new story got a much higher tracking on BigCloset than here.

Mind you, I am not advocating that canon authors should post exclusively here. That would be essentially writing off the casual reader. Thing is, the casual reader can evolve into a regular reader -- and we want those. What we should be thinking about is how best to use the offsite posting to attract readers to the main site.
Maybe adding a (voluntary) boilerplate to offsite repostings, summarizing in a few lines -- I would really try to keep it under ten -- the nature and scope of the Whateley universe, with links, could help. Something like this:

The Whateley Academy is a free shared fictional universe centered in the events around a very special New Hampshire boarding school. The official site offers more than 200 canon stories and hundreds of fan-written ones, plus an active discussion forum.

Taking a few minutes to carefully craft a boilerplate makes it easier for canon authors to repost (they don't have to reinvent the wheel every time), and makes sure that the points you want to put forth are clear -- and doing it in a way that won't annoy the owners of the other sites.

I think it's important to offer a link to the official site pretty much every chance we get, because I believe there are still some old fans out there who didn't find the new site. Too bad that the old URL is redirecting to BigCloset and not here...

Another thing that might help is to make it easier for a casual writer to be made aware of new developments. The Twitter presence is not a bad idea. Echoing it in Facebook and Google Plus might be good too (I believe it can be set up so every Twitter post is automatically repeated at the other networks). Maybe exposing more the RSS/Atom feed for the announcements page...

Don't call me "Shirley." You will surely make me surly.

8 years 5 months ago #14 by DanZilla

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Astrodragon wrote: Is there any sort of policy or whatever on reposting stories to BigCloset?

There don't seem to be any Gen2 stories there, and maybe posting to an additional site would get us some more interest over here?

After all, there is no such thing as bad publicity (unless its your obituary...)

I know Morpheus cross-posts his a while after they post initially here so his Gen2 stories are on there...

As for policies on it... generally authors wait at least a small amount of time to pass with the story first posted here before posting it there but the amount of time is up to each author.

I know it's frustrating that even seemingly "fans" of the Whateley stories will ONLY read them on BigCloset and not even look for them on this site.

Would it do any good to release the first episode/part/section of a story on BigCloset closer to the release date here and direct people to read the remainder on this site? with a longer delay of eventually posting the remaining pieces... Sort of a teaser.

8 years 5 months ago - 8 years 5 months ago #15 by Kristin Darken

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*growls* and my CSS adjustments reverted with the code update... wth! Everything except the forums changes... *sigh*

Fate guard you and grant you a Light to brighten your Way.

Last Edit: 8 years 5 months ago by Kristin Darken.

8 years 5 months ago #16 by Yolandria

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I think Sir Lee hit it on the head. BC is a much larger site traffic wise so it can be really tough to get the traffic/views etc for here. I started off reading WU stories on BC. So it's a great place for exposure. But i do think more efforts could be done to draw in the more casual reader.
I know it might be asking more of the cabal, but if your after more traffic perhaps a second release during the end of the week might help boost numbers? I can only speak for myself, but i really look forward to Monday's releases. And then i'll check back through out the rest of the week for fan fic posts. But i don't stick around that often.
I'm not sure what everyone's plans are for the WU as a whole. But what about podcasts on Youtube? Once a week events. Writing workshops?Behind the scenes looks at the process? Author interviews? Just a thought.

Mistress of the shelter for lost and redeemable Woobies!

8 years 5 months ago #17 by Kristin Darken

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1. Our original readership was from TG Fiction community. While we still have TG and LBGT oriented characters and topics, most of the stories are not based on that issue... and we may go months of releases without seeing another new transformation. If THAT is your focus for reading, Whateley is not going to be as large a draw for you as Fictionmania stories...

2. Regularity of release and amount of content. We currently release four 20-25k word story parts per month... that's roughly a standard contemporary novel a month... 12 in a year. Even among people who are regular readers, a novel a month is a significant chunk of their time spent reading (yes, I know its nothing to those of us who read 200+ novels a year), but give that the average American reads < 1 novel per year through their adult life? There isn't a lot of reason for someone to visit every week if they aren't a fast reader. They can drop in at the top of the month, download all the content for that month in one session and read it offline at their convenience.

3. Mobile device/readers. Two years ago, most people reading online fiction read on a desktop... maybe saved and offline, but often just reading it while onsite. You don't have to spend much time on the site to get roughly 100 novels worth of reading material loaded onto a reader, tablet, or phone and come back next year to see what's new and available.

4. As time moves forward, we bring in more authors... and like all artists, there is a need to fill the absence. What is missing? Well... in the early Gen 1 stories, there was lots of wacky and cheerful... some adventure and action... and a lot of bonding. That means the artists are looking at darker places, conflicts, losses, sacrifices... and saying "there's room for a unique story here." There will be more action and adventure along the way, especially as we finally get the Gen 1 year 2 kicked off, but we have all believed in the 'tie up loose ends first' method of moving forward. And while Gen 2 HAS some of that... those authors and characters are developing their own audience and 'fame' in the more sparse audience of the new site's user groups... and not the old one. There's nothing to do about that because, while we were started on the backstory; the first stories simply weren't ready before the old site died.

5. WhatIF authors - as more people getting into the swing of releasing WhatIF stories, this will help. It'll break the regularity of Monday only releases and give people more reasons to check in and come on to discuss/comment.

6. Advertising - offsite links? We're not actively doing any of this right now. Ideally, anyone visiting any story site should be leaving links/recommendations. Same for blogs,

Fate guard you and grant you a Light to brighten your Way.

8 years 5 months ago #18 by Dawnfyre

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What draws people to BCTS that can be done here, without losing the narrow focus on content here?

What is needed is more people posting WhatIF outside of the regular canon posting dates.
The readership for both sites tends to be quite voracious in their consumption of material, so greater number of new stories is the draw needed.

While I ( and most other readers ) would love more frequent canon postings, the size of them makes that very difficult to do. The speed that a couple of hundred WhatIF authors can post story parts is what will bring more readers and activity.

Maybe the vote for each story part link should be moved to the bottom of the posting, right above the comment box.
( A link to a forum thread to discuss each posting / story arc / character could help increase forum activity. )
Right now you need to read the posting then go back to the top to vote, then to the bottom to comment.

I know I've been poking people on BCTS to post their WhatIF over here also, most feel their work will just get torn apart here.
one of my favorites over there is:

bigclosetr.us/topshelf/book/33277/pink-why-pink

If you haven't read it, the laughter is worth the reading.
( avatar, 2 female spirits ( so he transitions ) and powers make her a "Pink Lantern" [ Hal Jordan's nemesis

] that can let her spirits control her pk+magic constructs )

Stupidity is a capitol offense, a summary not indictable one.

8 years 5 months ago #19 by Phoenix Spiritus

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Yeah, one of the things making me sad is that there seems to be ia more active Whateley fan fiction community offsite then there is onsite

8 years 5 months ago - 8 years 5 months ago #20 by Malady

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Promote how we're better than BCTS? (Are we? I don't actually know...) Like, we don't need donations. (Why is that??) Our WYSIWIG editor is better? They can just copy-paste from the BCTS editor? ... Someone figure out how to make a program to auto-transfer stories from BCTS? ... How accurate is BCTS's Printed Version to things like color and formatting? Could just harvest that and cut out a few things?

Could we actually handle absorbing/assimilating BCTS and/or Fictionmania?? We'd just store them all in the Library??

Inspired by FIMFiction's likely eventual move to General Fanfics/Fiction...

Archives: Rubberjohn's Fanfic + CrystalHall + Mittfh's Wordcount Spreadsheet

My Patreon. But, support the Crystal Hall 1st?

Last Edit: 8 years 5 months ago by Malady.

8 years 5 months ago #21 by Nagrij

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Malady wrote: Promote how we're better than BCTS? (Are we? I don't actually know...) Like, we don't need donations. (Why is that??) Our WYSIWIG editor is better? They can just copy-paste from the BCTS editor? ... Someone figure out how to make a program to auto-transfer stories from BCTS? ... How accurate is BCTS's Printed Version to things like color and formatting? Could just harvest that and cut out a few things?

Could we actually handle absorbing/assimilating BCTS and/or Fictionmania?? We'd just store them all in the Library??

Inspired by FIMFiction's likely eventual move to General Fanfics/Fiction...

Who said we had to be better? Just existing as an alternative source for fiction should be enough. You know what happened when I posted Tia's origin on BCTS (after waiting the required amount of time)? I was forced to prove my claim that it wasn't fan fiction, and link the new site. The reason for that is because many of the people there simply did not know that gen 2 or the new site existed.

People can only show up here if they know the place exists. That's the promotion people are talking about.

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If you like my writing, please consider helping me out, and see the rest of the tales I spin on Patreon.

8 years 5 months ago #22 by Astrodragon

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One question I'd like to ask.

Are we limiting ourselves by only tying to a TG fiction site?

I see the whole TG issue as only being part of Whateley - to me, its a superhero story with certain aspects emphasises.

Are there any superhero fiction sites that would be worth cross-pollinating? And if there are, would it be a good idea?

I love watching their innocent little faces smiling happily as they trip gaily down the garden path, before finding the pit with the rusty spikes.

8 years 5 months ago #23 by elrodw

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I posted a note on Deviantart to see if someone would like to do some artwork for Kayda & Tatanka - and maybe Kayda & Debra in their sexy pose. Of course, if anyone here wants to do this, PM me.

When such art comes in, I would LIKE to see a section for Whateley Art.

Speaking of which, somewhere, we have floor plans for Gen 2 Melville; I'll have to see what it'll take to get them up.

Never give up, Never surrender! Captain Peter Quincy Taggert

8 years 5 months ago #24 by Astrodragon

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You want a Deviant picture of Kayda and her Buffalo!!?

I love watching their innocent little faces smiling happily as they trip gaily down the garden path, before finding the pit with the rusty spikes.

8 years 5 months ago #25 by Yolandria

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At least he's not asking on Hentai Foundry or Sofurry.com.

Mistress of the shelter for lost and redeemable Woobies!

8 years 5 months ago #26 by elrodw

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Astrodragon wrote: You want a Deviant picture of Kayda and her Buffalo!!?

No, silly. Deviantart is simply a site that has some very good artists who have done Whateley pictures in the past.

The deviant picture is Debra and Kadya playing chess in just their panties, lying on a bearskin rug.

Or maybe one of Kayda and Lanie cuddling in a sweat lodge after passing out, exhausted, skin glistening with sweat from their hours of frantic ... activities ......

Never give up, Never surrender! Captain Peter Quincy Taggert

8 years 5 months ago #27 by Astrodragon

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Hmph!

And when I said I had a cute, sensitive pic of Morgana and Thulia kissing, you got all uptight!

I love watching their innocent little faces smiling happily as they trip gaily down the garden path, before finding the pit with the rusty spikes.

8 years 5 months ago #28 by Phoenix Spiritus

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Astrodragon wrote: Hmph!

And when I said I had a cute, sensitive pic of Morgana and Thulia kissing, you got all uptight!

Only because you weren't sharing.

8 years 5 months ago #29 by Astrodragon

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Phoenix Spiritus wrote:
Astrodragon wrote: Hmph!

And when I said I had a cute, sensitive pic of Morgana and Thulia kissing, you got all uptight!

Only because you weren't sharing.

You're welcome to a copy.
Remember, no Buffalo were traumatised in the drawing of this picture...

I love watching their innocent little faces smiling happily as they trip gaily down the garden path, before finding the pit with the rusty spikes.

8 years 5 months ago #30 by Kristin Darken

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Nagrij wrote:
Malady wrote: Promote how we're better than BCTS? (Are we? I don't actually know...) Like, we don't need donations. (Why is that??) Our WYSIWIG editor is better? They can just copy-paste from the BCTS editor? ... Someone figure out how to make a program to auto-transfer stories from BCTS? ... How accurate is BCTS's Printed Version to things like color and formatting? Could just harvest that and cut out a few things?

Could we actually handle absorbing/assimilating BCTS and/or Fictionmania?? We'd just store them all in the Library??

Inspired by FIMFiction's likely eventual move to General Fanfics/Fiction...

Who said we had to be better? Just existing as an alternative source for fiction should be enough. You know what happened when I posted Tia's origin on BCTS (after waiting the required amount of time)? I was forced to prove my claim that it wasn't fan fiction, and link the new site. The reason for that is because many of the people there simply did not know that gen 2 or the new site existed.

People can only show up here if they know the place exists. That's the promotion people are talking about.

1. Part of the conflict between us and BCTS is the attitude that one or the other site HAS to be better than the other. We serve different purposes. People don't HAVE to feel like visiting one is being disloyal to visiting the other... but that is how some people feel. What we need is for people to see the various story sites: FM, BCTS, WA, TtH, Fanfiction.net, etc... the same way they do webcomics. You don't visit just one webcomic because you feel disloyal to it if you are reading others, do you?
2. BCTS's editor is just as much a nuisance as ours is...
3. You can't copy-paste into BCTS's editor unless you already have forums/BBC tags for italics and such. They also have a team that fixes all the style mistakes that authors put in.
4. No. Even if it weren't a violation of copyright... absorbing either FM or BCTS, let alone both... would bring our little virtual server to its knees. Upgrading to a more powerful system with more space is doable... but more expensive.

Fate guard you and grant you a Light to brighten your Way.

8 years 5 months ago - 8 years 5 months ago #31 by E. E. Nalley

E. E. Nalley

Posts: 2005

Gender: Male

Birthdate: 10 Mar 1970

Kristin Darken wrote: 4. No. Even if it weren't a violation of copyright... absorbing either FM or BCTS, let alone both... would bring our little virtual server to its knees. Upgrading to a more powerful system with more space is doable... but more expensive.

We are the Crystal Hall. Lower your servers and surrender your stories; we will add your plot and character points to our own. Your reader base will adapt to service us.

Resistance is futile!

I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.
Thomas Jefferson, to Archibald Stuart, 1791

Last Edit: 8 years 5 months ago by E. E. Nalley.

8 years 5 months ago #32 by MageOhki

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well, I posted where I'm at on my FF.net page, that might help a bit...

8 years 5 months ago #33 by Kristin Darken

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Hey, we KNOW our readers are also reading web comics... especially superhero style webcomics. If even 100 of our readers each convince one of those webcomics artists who doesn't already know about us to recommend/link us... we could double or triple our numbers in a week. If they need to talk to an admin before they do, you know how to get hold of me. Also, I'm perfectly willing to create a 'we also recommend' link list. And I'm also perfectly willing to run a webcomics advertisement banner that cycles through webcomics sites that also recommend us. Or a links page to do the same.
tory sites... authors migrate to where they can most easily reach

Fate guard you and grant you a Light to brighten your Way.

8 years 5 months ago #34 by Nagrij

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Kristin Darken wrote:
Nagrij wrote:
Malady wrote: Promote how we're better than BCTS? (Are we? I don't actually know...) Like, we don't need donations. (Why is that??) Our WYSIWIG editor is better? They can just copy-paste from the BCTS editor? ... Someone figure out how to make a program to auto-transfer stories from BCTS? ... How accurate is BCTS's Printed Version to things like color and formatting? Could just harvest that and cut out a few things?

Could we actually handle absorbing/assimilating BCTS and/or Fictionmania?? We'd just store them all in the Library??

Inspired by FIMFiction's likely eventual move to General Fanfics/Fiction...

Who said we had to be better? Just existing as an alternative source for fiction should be enough. You know what happened when I posted Tia's origin on BCTS (after waiting the required amount of time)? I was forced to prove my claim that it wasn't fan fiction, and link the new site. The reason for that is because many of the people there simply did not know that gen 2 or the new site existed.

People can only show up here if they know the place exists. That's the promotion people are talking about.

1. Part of the conflict between us and BCTS is the attitude that one or the other site HAS to be better than the other. We serve different purposes. People don't HAVE to feel like visiting one is being disloyal to visiting the other... but that is how some people feel. What we need is for people to see the various story sites: FM, BCTS, WA, TtH, Fanfiction.net, etc... the same way they do webcomics. You don't visit just one webcomic because you feel disloyal to it if you are reading others, do you?
2. BCTS's editor is just as much a nuisance as ours is...
3. You can't copy-paste into BCTS's editor unless you already have forums/BBC tags for italics and such. They also have a team that fixes all the style mistakes that authors put in.
4. No. Even if it weren't a violation of copyright... absorbing either FM or BCTS, let alone both... would bring our little virtual server to its knees. Upgrading to a more powerful system with more space is doable... but more expensive.

As for the first point, well I don't feel that way; maybe I'm the weird one.

As for point two, I can attest to this, I'm sure I screw up just as much over there as I do here.

For point 4, I'm not sure I'd want FM rolled into us, but that's more personal preference. I'm more than willing to advertise for the site by seeding stories into the ether, provided I can find a good home for them. So far it's just been the two sites, but I'm open to suggestions.

www.patreon.com/Nagrij

If you like my writing, please consider helping me out, and see the rest of the tales I spin on Patreon.

8 years 5 months ago #35 by DanZilla

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Kristin Darken wrote: Hey, we KNOW our readers are also reading web comics... especially superhero style webcomics. If even 100 of our readers each convince one of those webcomics artists who doesn't already know about us to recommend/link us... we could double or triple our numbers in a week. If they need to talk to an admin before they do, you know how to get hold of me. Also, I'm perfectly willing to create a 'we also recommend' link list. And I'm also perfectly willing to run a webcomics advertisement banner that cycles through webcomics sites that also recommend us. Or a links page to do the same.
tory sites... authors migrate to where they can most easily reach

Yeah, I know we've talked about webcomics in the forums a number of times...

off the top of my head there are a number that target similar demographics such as...

Grrl Power

Wapsi Square

El Goonish Shive

Wilde Life

Spinnerette

Eerie Cuties, Dangerously Chloe and Magick Chicks

Heh, I realize that only one of those is pretty much traditional super heroes... but they all have dealt to varying degrees with same-sex relationships and a few get into more Gender- and Sexuality-based issues.

8 years 5 months ago #36 by Astrodragon

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Misfile

I love watching their innocent little faces smiling happily as they trip gaily down the garden path, before finding the pit with the rusty spikes.

8 years 5 months ago #37 by lighttech

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Dawnfyre wrote:
I know I've been poking people on BCTS to post their WhatIF over here also, most feel their work will just get torn apart here.

ahh this is partially why I don't post fan fic here, past my one try 6 months ago and I pretty much abandoned it.

Part of the WA Drow clan/ collective
Author of Vantier and Shadowsblade on Bigcloset

8 years 5 months ago #38 by Phoenix Spiritus

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lighttech wrote:
Dawnfyre wrote:
I know I've been poking people on BCTS to post their WhatIF over here also, most feel their work will just get torn apart here.

ahh this is partially why I don't post fan fic here, past my one try 6 months ago and I pretty much abandoned it.

Is the problem an expectation of super-high-quality, or just nasty comments?

8 years 5 months ago #39 by Dawnfyre

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Phoenix Spiritus wrote:
lighttech wrote:
Dawnfyre wrote:
I know I've been poking people on BCTS to post their WhatIF over here also, most feel their work will just get torn apart here.

ahh this is partially why I don't post fan fic here, past my one try 6 months ago and I pretty much abandoned it.

Is the problem an expectation of super-high-quality, or just nasty comments?

I would guess both, depending on the particular author.

some are lacking in the thick skin some comments require. ( though no such comments should be posted and there aren't many of them posted here. )
some are worried their english skills aren't up to the quality expectation.

Stupidity is a capitol offense, a summary not indictable one.

8 years 5 months ago #40 by elrodw

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Phoenix Spiritus wrote:
lighttech wrote:
Dawnfyre wrote:
I know I've been poking people on BCTS to post their WhatIF over here also, most feel their work will just get torn apart here.

ahh this is partially why I don't post fan fic here, past my one try 6 months ago and I pretty much abandoned it.

Is the problem an expectation of super-high-quality, or just nasty comments?

It's my personal opinion that we (the community) should STOMP on comments that are super-critical and/or tear a work or author to shreds. On the other hand, if there's a fan-fic author who's being hyper-sensitive and wants to be coddled and praised for producing very low-quality work, well, we do need to make sure they know we don't do such pampering.

One thing I learned long ago is that it is very difficult to do a truly constructive critique of something. We should ALL practice this. Whateleyacademy.net should be a place that's welcoming for new authors to try and learn. It'd be nice if we could have a 'mentoring' group to help aspiring authors so they WANT to try to write fan-fic and eventually move up to WhatIF.

My .02 worth.

Never give up, Never surrender! Captain Peter Quincy Taggert

8 years 5 months ago #41 by Domoviye

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I've always held that unless the author is being a complete ass, harsh criticism should be done privately. However I also say that having a thick skin is essential for writers and think that criticism is better than vapid praise.
So if someone rips into my work with something that actually makes me pause and think, I'll thank them and start a discussion, and even share the harsh review. Whereas a "Good work, looking forward to more," will at best get a quick thanks or an upvote from me.
Of course if the criticism is just to troll the author it should be met with severe sarcasm and ridicule.

8 years 5 months ago #42 by Valentine

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E. E. Nalley wrote:
Kristin Darken wrote: 4. No. Even if it weren't a violation of copyright... absorbing either FM or BCTS, let alone both... would bring our little virtual server to its knees. Upgrading to a more powerful system with more space is doable... but more expensive.

We are the Crystal Hall. Lower your servers and surrender your stories; we will add your plot and character points to our own. Your reader base will adapt to service us.

Resistance is futile!

All your stories are belong to us.

Don't Drick and Drive.

8 years 5 months ago - 8 years 5 months ago #43 by lighttech

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elrodw wrote:
Phoenix Spiritus wrote:
lighttech wrote:
Dawnfyre wrote:
I know I've been poking people on BCTS to post their WhatIF over here also, most feel their work will just get torn apart here.

ahh this is partially why I don't post fan fic here, past my one try 6 months ago and I pretty much abandoned it.

Is the problem an expectation of super-high-quality, or just nasty comments?

It's my personal opinion that we (the community) should STOMP on comments that are super-critical and/or tear a work or author to shreds. On the other hand, if there's a fan-fic author who's being hyper-sensitive and wants to be coddled and praised for producing very low-quality work, well, we do need to make sure they know we don't do such pampering.

One thing I learned long ago is that it is very difficult to do a truly constructive critique of something. We should ALL practice this. Whateleyacademy.net should be a place that's welcoming for new authors to try and learn. It'd be nice if we could have a 'mentoring' group to help aspiring authors so they WANT to try to write fan-fic and eventually move up to WhatIF.

My .02 worth.

"It'd be nice if we could have a 'mentoring' group to help aspiring authors so they WANT to try to write fan-fic and eventually move up to WhatIF."

Well this is what I am talking about----this lack here, I know that there is no one 'paid' to be here and I have got some great input back on my post, But after hearing post after post of the high standards and having no input to go on or improve on I gave up on this page and just read for the most part

The fan fic side of this place went from many posts per-day and talk about what was in them.
To zero per day and some small percentage% per month. That is where you need that base to come back from?

ohhh an here is an example of the little gems I got on my first post to FM

one=someone who DID NOT read my story at all and the links and copywrite stuff at the TOP!!!!!!!!! of it

"Note: This universe belongs to a few authors, Maggie Finson is just one of them. Others include Babs YerUnkle, Bek D. Corbin, Dr. Bender, E. E. Nalley, ScramblerJ, Diane Castle and Starwolf. Recently Morpheus and ElrodW have been inducted into the canon.]

Canon stories may be found at crystalhall.org""

geee thanks --non-reader?

then the guy who did this and when I rewrote part of my story with some corrections that other readers gave great input on

I left the parts he whined about in just to peve him off I am sure!

I read the first paragraph. There were problems:
1) See dictionary definition for the word insipid. It basically means tasteless/dull and I've yet to hear an alarm noise that good be described as such.
2) There are no cases where "!!!" is appropriate punctuation in English.
3) Violation of show don't tell principle. Author is directly telling us that Jack earned sleep, instead of showing us what he might have done to deserve it. Actually, this may just be bad ordering, because a little later it's stated he just finished a long day of work. In any case, telling us he earned his sleep is both poor style and unnecessary.
4) First paragraph is actually one long sentence. Please use some periods instead of commas.
5) Not sure about your alarm clock, but mine doesn't "shake" me awake. Did you attach yours to a buttkicker (device that shakes chair when bass speaker output goes through it)? If so, you might want to explain this unique way of waking up.
6) How often do you remember to move your alarm clock next to your lazyboy but forget to sleep in your bed? Very unusual.

I am most impressed by the flaw count in just the first paragraph.

if he read on a bit more, most of that was explained? I almost gave up because of those two alone!

but I passed that and have 22 stories up there and more coming to both there and BC

but remember this, English class was decades ago and I sucked at it! ANd so do others, so help don't go all Mrs Crabtree and red out the whole story!

what is needed is helping grow that team of fan fic writers to here....some sort of 'carrot' for writing and inputting stuff well enough?

Part of the WA Drow clan/ collective
Author of Vantier and Shadowsblade on Bigcloset

Last Edit: 8 years 5 months ago by lighttech.

8 years 5 months ago #44 by Nuuan

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There is quite a lot of questions regarding what the problem may be and a few suggestions of how it could be addressed.

While I am not sure what the major issue is that could be causing this. I can relay my own personal problem that is causing me not to post any of my stories here at this time. Mainly it has to do with my lack of time to learn the new site and how to post. Eventually that will change and I will get around to learning this new posting system.

I understand that one problem many have is finding editors. This is a problem with all the story sites. Plenty of willing writers but almost no volunteers to do any editing. There isn't a single one of us that can say we do not need an editor.

Maybe a call out to those here that do not write but would be willing to edit would help some of the writers produce better quality work, which in turn would help bring in more stories. And if something of this nature works out with more willing editors, it would draw more writers to the site.

8 years 5 months ago - 8 years 5 months ago #45 by Phoenix Spiritus

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lighttech wrote: The fan fic side of this place went from many posts per-day and talk about what was in them, To zero per day and some small percentage% per month. That is where you need that base to come back from?

Ah yeah, two events conspired to cause this.

1) We took the many of the most talented and active authors, and gave them a canon playground to play in, Gen 2, removing their works and mentoring from the WhatIF community.

2) The site hacks forcing us to abandon our old forum, also caused us to lose the wealth of Fan Fiction material contained in the forum, and only the very best have been re-posted by their authors to this site, possibly leading to some "unrealistic" expectations of Fan Fic quality for this site.

We've been re-ordering how WhatIF fiction is handled on this site in an attempt to hopefully encourage it. For those just starting out, new and a little afraid, they can post their Stories to the Forums, "hidden" from the casual viewer and work on them in a little privacy.

For those who wish their stories read by all, they can now post to the WhatIF section of the main "Stories" section of the site.

And for those the community recognises as excellent works, we have the ability to promote those stories and feature them on the site.

We'd hoped this would spur new activity amongst our readership and prospective new authors, but not much seems to have changed since we did it.

Last Edit: 8 years 5 months ago by Phoenix Spiritus.

8 years 5 months ago - 8 years 5 months ago #46 by lighttech

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Phoenix Spiritus wrote:
lighttech wrote: The fan fic side of this place went from many posts per-day and talk about what was in them, To zero per day and some small percentage% per month. That is where you need that base to come back from?

Ah yeah, two events conspired to cause this.

1) We took the many of the most talented and active authors, and gave them a canon playground to play in, Gen 2, removing their works and mentoring from the WhatIF community.

2) The site hacks forcing us to abandon our old forum, also caused us to lose the wealth of Fan Fiction material contained in the forum, and only the very best have been re-posted by their authors to this site, possibly leading to some "unrealistic" expectations of Fan Fic quality for this site.

We've been re-ordering how WhatIF fiction is handled on this site in an attempt to hopefully encourage it. For those just starting out, new and a little afraid, they can post their Stories to the Forums, "hidden" from the casual viewer and work on them in a little privacy.

For those who wish their stories read by all, they can now post to the WhatIF section of the main "Stories" section of the site.

And for those the community recognises as excellent works, we have the ability to promote those stories and feature them on the site.

We'd hoped this would spur new activity amongst our readership and prospective new authors, but not much seems to have changed since we did it.

I understand all that and it may work?

but from the outset of the new site.

All I saw as writer of fan fic to this site was "We have high standards and will not post unfinished stories" over and over in forums and directions on how to post.

that made my mull over even posting here?

then add how hard it seems to post here correctly? the learning curve is high and add to that some writers might not even know a hidden part is there to ask about to this day?

you might need to start a fan fic section called "spaghetti wall" toss it and see if it sticks! just a mess that people chat about and then say "hey that's great! grab that one and polish it and add to the What-if list!

but most of all you need that "base' that left back here...no input===== no writers
Comments on BC and PM's got me to add lots of thing I did not think of!

and just so ya know why I never posted to WA in the far past and took my first shot at FM instead?
I was trapped outside looking in, unable to log on.
I was trapped behind that messy "we check if your a spam bot" wall for over 6 months! I gave up and even tried using PM's on deviant art and FM and wiki! to get in
and when I finally did! The house burned down with the hacker---yep blame me! my bad luck did it!

Part of the WA Drow clan/ collective
Author of Vantier and Shadowsblade on Bigcloset

Last Edit: 8 years 5 months ago by lighttech.

8 years 5 months ago - 8 years 5 months ago #47 by Phoenix Spiritus

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lighttech wrote:
Phoenix Spiritus wrote:
lighttech wrote: The fan fic side of this place went from many posts per-day and talk about what was in them, To zero per day and some small percentage% per month. That is where you need that base to come back from?

Ah yeah, two events conspired to cause this.

1) We took the many of the most talented and active authors, and gave them a canon playground to play in, Gen 2, removing their works and mentoring from the WhatIF community.

2) The site hacks forcing us to abandon our old forum, also caused us to lose the wealth of Fan Fiction material contained in the forum, and only the very best have been re-posted by their authors to this site, possibly leading to some "unrealistic" expectations of Fan Fic quality for this site.

We've been re-ordering how WhatIF fiction is handled on this site in an attempt to hopefully encourage it. For those just starting out, new and a little afraid, they can post their Stories to the Forums, "hidden" from the casual viewer and work on them in a little privacy.

For those who wish their stories read by all, they can now post to the WhatIF section of the main "Stories" section of the site.

And for those the community recognises as excellent works, we have the ability to promote those stories and feature them on the site.

We'd hoped this would spur new activity amongst our readership and prospective new authors, but not much seems to have changed since we did it.

I understand all that and it may work?

but from the outset of the new site.

All I saw as writer of fan fic to this site was "We have high standards and will not post unfinished stories" over and over in forums and directions on how to post.

Yes, coming in late it may seem that way, but these posts are directed totally at the "Featured WhatIF" section of the site, where the same standards as a canon story are enforced as these stories will be "featured" alongside canon stories on the front page of the site.

The forum and the WhatIF sections of the site have no editorial control over them, any WhatIF author is free to post what they like to these sections of the site (well, within reason, if the story is offensive in some way, we do have the ability to remove it).

then add how hard it seems to post here correctly? the learning curve is high and add to that some writers might not even know a hidden part is there to ask about to this day?

We've written a tutorial taking you all the way from just arriving on the sight to posting a WhatIF story, and posting a story to the forum is no harder then posting any other forum post.

If there are still things that are giving you problems, please fell free to tell us so we can try and either fix them, or amend the instructions to help you.

you might need to start a fan fic section called "spaghetti wall" toss it and see if it sticks! just a mess that people chat about and then say "hey that's great! grab that one and polish it and add to the What-if list!

We actually have a couple, one is the "Bad Ideas" thread, which most closely matches what you mean, and the second is the "Micro-scenes" thread, which consists of small post sized "micro-stories" people post, that are sometimes built up to complete stories by them.

and just so ya know why I never posted to WA in the far past and took my first shot at FM instead?
I was trapped outside looking in, unable to log on.
I was trapped behind that messy "we check if your a spam bot" wall for over 6 months! I gave up and even tried using PM's on deviant art and FM and wiki! to get in
and when I finally did! The house burned down with the hacker---yep blame me! my bad luck did it!

I too got trapped outside looking in by for many months, my revenge? Both my first two posts when I eventually got allowed in ended up being used by me as major parts of a canon story, they where the "Radio-active Condor Girl" and "Noodle Incident" scenes I used in So Shall You Show Me Friendship

Last Edit: 8 years 5 months ago by Phoenix Spiritus.

8 years 5 months ago #48 by Domoviye

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Phoenix Spiritus wrote: We actually have a couple, one is the "Bad Ideas" thread, which most closely matches what you mean, and the second is the "Micro-scenes" thread, which consists of small post sized "micro-stories" people post, that are sometimes built up to complete stories by them.

and just so ya know why I never posted to WA in the far past and took my first shot at FM instead?
I was trapped outside looking in, unable to log on.
I was trapped behind that messy "we check if your a spam bot" wall for over 6 months! I gave up and even tried using PM's on deviant art and FM and wiki! to get in
and when I finally did! The house burned down with the hacker---yep blame me! my bad luck did it!

I too got trapped outside looking in by for many months, my revenge? Both my first two posts when I eventually got allowed in ended up being used by me as major parts of a canon story, they where the "Radio-active Condor Girl" and "Noodle Incident" scenes I used in So Shall You Show Me Friendship

I use both Bad Ideas and Micro stories to test ideas all the time. Some of my most interesting characters come from them, or have been tweaked after posting there.

8 years 5 months ago #49 by Phoenix Spiritus

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Domoviye wrote: I use both Bad Ideas and Micro stories to test ideas all the time. Some of my most interesting characters come from them, or have been tweaked after posting there.

Ditto.

A very high proportion of my Micro-scene posts have ended up in stories.

8 years 5 months ago #50 by lighttech

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At this point I don't know what to do?

with near zero feed back on my posted stories?

I see no need to really get involved at all, the community feel is all gone once all the fan fic authors here got cannon status. And the moving of the webpage. IMO

no one is left around anymore?

maybe a post a comment to every story that is WA based? as advertisement?
or open the world a bit more, to pull other authors in...that's all I can suggest now?

and I will say it again

""but most of all you need that "base' that left back IN here...no input===== no writers
Comments on BC and PM's got me to add lots of things I did not think of!"""

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Author of Vantier and Shadowsblade on Bigcloset

8 years 5 months ago #51 by GrimGrendel

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lighttech wrote: At this point I don't know what to do?

with near zero feed back on my posted stories?

I see no need to really get involved at all, the community feel is all gone once all the fan fic authors here got cannon status. And the moving of the webpage. IMO

no one is left around anymore?

New blood here. (´｡• ᵕ •｡`)

I am only just starting to get a hang on the discussions going on, and I don't talk too much, but I plan to eventually read and critique other WhatIFs when I get around to it. I might be only one new soul around, but one is more than nothing.

Any story in particular you would like some feedback on?

Up for review: Magpies 1 - Flock (Part 1)

8 years 5 months ago - 8 years 5 months ago #52 by Kristin Darken

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Engagement in the community - who should do it?

Through most of the Crystal Hall history, canon authors have done NOTHING to engage fan authors. We opened a section of the forums and said, go for it. We took a three sentence blurb and said, here... put this on any story you create that you post somewhere, so it advertises the universe and makes sure people know which stories are in the canon pile and which are not (to reduce confusion when someone says... but in story X they did this... and in story Y that guy is still around... that's not consistent).

That's it.

Everything else that led to hundreds of non-canon stories over the years was driven by fans. Fans coming up with ideas. Fans writing stories. Fans commenting on each others work and pushing each other to improve. Fans answering questions about the universe so collectively they can understand and keep a close connection to the universe when they choose to write stories that benefit from accuracy. And fans being excited for and supportive of other fan authors whose work is recognized by the canon team. Sometimes resulting in that author being brought into canon.

Almost nothing in that process requires action or support from the site administration or authors. And nothing that we've added since building the new site changes any of that.

The WhatIF tiers and getting exposure as an author here:

Are there now publishing options that require more editorial and story structure in order to be involved? Yes. There are... but we haven't removed the original method. Is there greater prestige and visibility in publishing under the WhatIF banner than simply posting to the forums? I think there is, and getting there takes a very small amount more work than posting in the forums... more than worth the reward I'd think. And yes, there is that higher Featured level that requires you to go through a feedback and vetting process that can be very tough if you're not used to it. But that process is on par with what EVERY canon author goes through for every bit of content that we publish. Do you think it unfair that we require you to undergo what we do to get the level of featured attention that canon stories do?

It would be different if we took the easier route away. But we didn't. What we did was set up options that allow you to put in as much effort as you want and experience what its like to be a canon author. If you choose. If you don't want to jump through all the hoops, no one is making you. But if you do want to grasp for the gold ring... don't think you're going to just jot something down and not get called out on it. And don't expect it to be gentle, it's possible to be gentle while giving really detailed feedback... but it is HARD work. And its both quicker and simpler to just go through it and be clear about it. If you want gentle, hire an editor who you are PAYING to treat you nicely while they rip your baby to shreds.

The difference between feedback here and feedback at other fiction sites:

I personally like BCTS. I like the community. But I would never recommend it to an author who is looking to learn/improve their craft. BCTS's readers are supportive. They're appreciative. They'll give you kudos. But if you want feedback, they'll give you a list of typos.

Fictionmania was where I went for reading material before Sapphires and BCTS were on my radar... but the feedback at FM is why I never once considered submitting anything there. No thanks... if I want that much abuse in my life, I'd hire a dom mistress.

Where we are is a reasonable middle ground. I'd like to see our feedback evolve to more like a Twisting the Hellmouth... our feedback section tends to get derailed into speculation about what is going to happen NEXT as opposed to discussion about what has happened in the released content. And that's very strange, honestly... because while speculation on what will happen next is common in fan sites... it is actually not all that good to have in feedback for authors to read. And if it dominates the thread where feedback is supposed to happen, then the author gets little or no comments at all.

I've tried to solve that some by giving a place for that while also having the end of story comment section where readers can just comment/give acknowledgement to the authors. But even that isn't a 'perfect' system.

Summary and 'on the community itself':

Anyway... the point of all this is... the site administration and canon authors are in this to write and publish the canon stories about the Whateley Universe. Everything else? Is about giving the fans the opportunity to read, discuss, and respond to those stories. If you want to chat live, if you want shoutboxes, if you want forums, or fan fiction, or anything else... you need to commit to making it happen. Show us HOW and we will support it in whatever way we can. I do what I can do keep stories arriving from week to week. But I can't run around from site to site all over the interwebs to make people excited about your fan fiction. I can give you a place to display your fan fiction, and a system to go about putting it together and getting responses. But I cannot make people read your story and respond to you about it. Hell, I can't get people to read and respond to MY story.

I am *not* the community. I'm not even its leader. That role doesn't really belong to anyone who is an administrator or even a canon author. We serve other masters (Scotch swilling drunken muse masters). If you want a large vibrant active supportive community built around fan fiction... build it. Tell me what tools you need and I'll do what I can to put them in your hands.Some things may be out of our grasp (for now) because of time and financial reasons... but you put enough traffic through the site and we can afford to put more money into its development. I tapped the author community intentionally when restructuring the WhatIF system and coming up with the new policies for derivative works / fan fiction... for a reason. But I can't drive ALL of it.

Fate guard you and grant you a Light to brighten your Way.

Last Edit: 8 years 5 months ago by Kristin Darken.

8 years 5 months ago #53 by lighttech

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I just know I am going to get BIT for this!

But off the rails I go!

I saw some hope that this was going somewhere, a dialog was starting and maybe just maybe it was not so hard to get going again on here. Then I should pull my stuff, give it an edit pass with what I have learned in 6 months and try posting again?

then the wall of text below fell down, with all the stops signs on it.

and no I am not thin skinned!

now I feel like --drop the ball--they want far more than reasonable to start

because it says it over and over and over and over in just one post?

I would be willing to discuss some of this as talking points---if it was not that wall---because I see many, but buried

ohh well here comes the 'ban hammer' I guess?

Kristin Darken wrote: Through most of the Crystal Hall history, canon authors have done NOTHING to engage fan authors. We opened a section of the forums and said, go for it. We took a three sentence blurb and said, here... put this on any story you create that you post somewhere, so it advertises the universe and makes sure people know which stories are in the canon pile and which are not (to reduce confusion when someone says... but in story X they did this... and in story Y that guy is still around... that's not consistent).

That's it.

Everything else that led to hundreds of non-canon stories over the years was driven by fans. Fans coming up with ideas. Fans writing stories. Fans commenting on each others work and pushing each other to improve. Fans answering questions about the universe so collectively they can understand and keep a close connection to the universe when they choose to write stories that benefit from accuracy. And fans being excited for and supportive of other fan authors whose work is recognized by the canon team. Sometimes resulting in that author being brought into canon.

Almost nothing in that process requires action or support from the site administration or authors. And nothing that we've added since building the new site changes any of that. Are there now publishing options that require more editorial and story structure in order to be involved? Yes. There are... but we haven't removed the original method. Is there greater prestige and visibility in publishing under the WhatIF banner than simply posting to the forums? I think there is, and getting there takes a very small amount more work than posting in the forums... more than worth the reward I'd think. And yes, there is that higher Featured level that requires you to go through a feedback and vetting process that can be very tough if you're not used to it. But that process is on par with what EVERY canon author goes through for every bit of content that we publish. Do you think it unfair that we require you to undergo what we do to get the level of featured attention that canon stories do?

It would be different if we took the easier route away. But we didn't. What we did was set up options that allow you to put in as much effort as you want and experience what its like to be a canon author. If you choose. If you don't want to jump through all the hoops, no one is making you. But if you do want to grasp for the gold ring... don't think you're going to just jot something down and not get called out on it. And don't expect it to be gentle, it's possible to be gentle while giving really detailed feedback... but it is HARD work. And its both quicker and simpler to just go through it and be clear about it. If you want gentle, hire an editor who you are PAYING to treat you nicely while they rip your baby to shreds.

I personally like BCTS. I like the community. But I would never recommend it to an author who is looking to learn/improve their craft. BCTS's readers are supportive. They're appreciative. They'll give you kudos. But if you want feedback, they'll give you a list of typos. Fictionmania was where I went for reading material before Sapphires and BCTS were on my radar... but the feedback at FM is why I never once considered submitting anything there. No thanks... if I want that much abuse in my life, I'd hire a dom mistress. Where we are is a reasonable middle ground. I'd like to see our feedback evolve to more like a Twisting the Hellmouth... our feedback section tends to get derailed into speculation about what is going to happen NEXT as opposed to discussion about what has happened in the released content. And that's very strange, honestly... because while speculation on what will happen next is common in fan sites... it is actually not all that good to have in feedback for authors to read. And if it dominates the thread where feedback is supposed to happen, then the author gets little or no comments at all. I've tried to solve that some by giving a place for that while also having the end of story comment section where readers can just comment/give acknowledgement to the authors. But even that isn't a 'perfect' system.

Anyway... the point of all this is... the site administration and canon authors are in this to write and publish the canon stories about the Whateley Universe. Everything else? Is about giving the fans the opportunity to read, discuss, and respond to those stories. If you want to chat live, if you want shoutboxes, if you want forums, or fan fiction, or anything else... you need to commit to making it happen. Show us HOW and we will support it in whatever way we can. I do what I can do keep stories arriving from week to week. But I can't run around from site to site all over the interwebs to make people excited about your fan fiction. I can give you a place to display your fan fiction, and a system to go about putting it together and getting responses. But I cannot make people read your story and respond to you about it. Hell, I can't get people to read and respond to MY story.

I am *not* the community. I'm not even its leader. That role doesn't really belong to anyone who is an administrator or even a canon author. We serve other masters (Scotch swilling drunken muse masters). If you want a large vibrant active supportive community built around fan fiction... build it. Tell me what tools you need and I'll do what I can to put them in your hands.Some things may be out of our grasp (for now) because of time and financial reasons... but you put enough traffic through the site and we can afford to put more money into its development. I tapped the author community intentionally when restructuring the WhatIF system and coming up with the new policies for derivative works / fan fiction... for a reason. But I can't drive ALL of it.

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8 years 5 months ago #54 by DanZilla

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lighttech wrote: I just know I am going to get BIT for this!

But off the rails I go!

I saw some hope that this was going somewhere, a dialog was starting and maybe just maybe it was not so hard to get going again on here. Then I should pull my stuff, give it an edit pass with what I have learned in 6 months and try posting again?

then the wall of text below fell down, with all the stops signs on it.

and no I am not thin skinned!

now I feel like --drop the ball--they want far more than reasonable to start

because it says it over and over and over and over in just one post?

I would be willing to discuss some of this as talking points---if it was not that wall---because I see many, but buried

ohh well here comes the 'ban hammer' I guess?

Why would you get bit or banned?

The problem with your response here is it doesn't tell us what your issues are... you say you see something unreasonable said there and it's repeated over-and-over. can you elaborate?

Kristin tried to provide a fairly well thought out take on some of the issues we've been discussing and all your reply is saying is tl;dr but I noticed some things I have issues with as I skimmed it.

We don't want to be dismissive but we also can't address things that happened in the past. We're trying to see what we and the community can do to make things work better for the future. Note: if it's things that you'd like to see the community do and become, we can't achieve that directly but ARE willing to work with you all, as much as we can, to see happen.

8 years 5 months ago #55 by lighttech

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what my eyes saw over and over in that long post was ---IMO

its hard to post here, very hard. From nearly 2 whole paragraphs.
and since it points out, that you will not jump up levels in listing to a higher part , till editing is done, polished and reviewed. Since I have near no feed back at this time --I figure at that rate...never?

but who knows?

Just about every-time I see Kristin do a wall of type like that, its involved what I thought was a small question on my part? and it felt like more of a 'bit' so I back off.

So each time I post, then see that 'tag' I expect it to get bad and leave.

but to fix it? I do try to post that link to back here in each post or at least near that? at other webpages, to lead others back here
I have pulled at least 6 over to BC, from FM and told them of reading here? but who knows if that is working well as a plan?

one suggestion? a chat might help bring some over? but it would have to be 'active' to pull lots over?

this was the best I could input back --I kinda shut down at this piont

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8 years 5 months ago #56 by Nagrij

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Well, It's easier to post here than it was on the old site. There tend to be some minor formatting issues for those of us that are computer challenged, but all in all, it's easy. You can literally post inside of five minutes.

But it isn't easier than simple copy and paste sites; I think that's by design.

As for the other aspects, I get just as much useful feedback on BCTS as here. Most of the comments I get are speculation or compliments. I don't mind either, but a technical breakdown of what I'm doing wrong, or an opinion of such, is something I've never been upset about getting. Even if it's an ill-informed one I disagree with.

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8 years 5 months ago #57 by Dawnfyre

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Kristin Darken wrote: Tell me what tools you need and I'll do what I can to put them in your hands.Some things may be out of our grasp (for now) because of time and financial reasons.

check the comments on Elrod's All the Kings Men on BCTS for who specifically made the following comment:

Ugh no, to much white on the pages and it puts me off.

I tend to find white backgrounds difficult to work with, the GLOW from the monitor hurts my eyes. dropping background colour from FFFFFF to EEEEEE or slightly lower leaves a less glaring experience. I know this is a touchy subject with lots of people, everyone has their preferred colour scheme and will promote it, I'm only suggesting adding a bit of grey to reduce the glaring from the display. I think the originator of the comment was referring to the lack of massive sidebars etc. like BC has. I like the cleanliness of here.

Stupidity is a capitol offense, a summary not indictable one.

8 years 5 months ago #58 by Mogman

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The back ground color on the page can make a big difference to some people.My daughter suffers dyslexia, the school found by changing to yelow paper it made her reading far easier. Hope this is of youse. Good righting to all authors weather canon or fanciful.

8 years 5 months ago #59 by DanZilla

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lighttech wrote: what my eyes saw over and over in that long post was ---IMO

its hard to post here, very hard. From nearly 2 whole paragraphs.
and since it points out, that you will not jump up levels in listing to a higher part , till editing is done, polished and reviewed. Since I have near no feed back at this time --I figure at that rate...never?

Okay... this is a bit of a misconception that I keep seeing... posting here is no harder than it was posting on the other site... The difference is that NOW we have a method in place for promoting stories that we think are more finished into a more acccessible, and polished, list of stories that is NOT part of the forums.

As to the no harder part I mentioned... The forums still exist and can be used for your stories like the previous iterations of our site used... The Fabrication Lab has a fair number of stories that have been posted on here since we revamped. Now, is it the 7+ pages of the old site? Nope... and we regret the loss of stories the migration led to. BUT, I've looked through that list of stories and that seven pages was built over 10+ years of posting.

Other sites that are built solely for fanfiction authors may handle things differently... we understand that. This site was built to house and present the Canon stories first and foremost but we DO understand what a vital part of our community the WhatIF writers are and that's why we've tried a few ways to get that part of the community to feel like they belong as well. We'll continue to work with you guys as much as we're able... Just let us know where we're falling down. I know there are some of you that do that constantly and we ALWAYS consider what we're told. We may not reply to it but we DO consider them to see if suggestions can be plugged into our ecology in some way or are possible. We don't have the staff some other sites have. It would be nice if we did but there are only a small number of us, and we try to keep as many of the mice in the walls writing as we can, so other parts of things may not get done as quickly as any of us would like... but we do try to make sure they get done.

8 years 5 months ago - 8 years 5 months ago #60 by Dawnfyre

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Mogman wrote: The back ground color on the page can make a big difference to some people.My daughter suffers dyslexia, the school found by changing to yelow paper it made her reading far easier. Hope this is of youse. Good righting to all authors weather canon or fanciful.

You are right in how the background has a huge impact on readers. The light colours tend to glow when viewed on a monitor, scheme designers need to think in pastels rather than full saturation when picking the backgrounds.

The blue in the boxes is a great colour for a background, though the text could be a bit darker for better contrast.

Stupidity is a capitol offense, a summary not indictable one.

Last Edit: 8 years 5 months ago by Dawnfyre.

8 years 5 months ago #61 by Yolandria

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If colors are an issue wouldn't it be within the limits of this site to have a user control setting that allowed them to customize the colors as needed? Have it linked to user profiles so no matter what device they log in with it will display correctly?

But i have to say though. Complaining about too much white seems a bit extreme. I guess they don't read on real paper.

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8 years 5 months ago - 8 years 5 months ago #62 by DanZilla

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A fair number of the fiction sites have white backgrounds...

I wonder if those people that stay away from here due to the white background also hold it against them as well... or just us since we appear to have put more work into our look and thus must have chosen to do it this way.
.

Yolandria wrote: If colors are an issue wouldn't it be within the limits of this site to have a user control setting that allowed them to customize the colors as needed? Have it linked to user profiles so no matter what device they log in with it will display correctly?

But i have to say though. Complaining about too much white seems a bit extreme. I guess they don't read on real paper.

Some sites can allow control of a "theme" by the user... the problem is the template used by the site has to allow for it and some sections of the site may not allow it or have been written to support it since a lot of sites like this are built using plug-ins to create the various sections and types of pages. So a control to make the background yellow (for instance) might work in the forums but not the stories or vice-versa. It might also clash with some of the graphics used like the header image at the top of the page... this would mean rebuilding parts of the site to allow or compensate for it for a possibly small number of individuals that would use the feature. On top of that in order to find the feature they'd have to use the site and stay long enough to do so.

Not to say we won't or haven't looked into it... that'd be up to Kristin to address since she does the site-maintenance.

Last Edit: 8 years 5 months ago by DanZilla.

8 years 5 months ago #63 by Kristin Darken

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Ya, personal templates work fine on older forums because it is just those forums that are affected. Joomla sites used to allow for some personalized choices for template overrides, but they have been disabled. In fact, it's not even possible to use the basic style settings to make simple color changes anymore because of the way things have evolved. I have to get into the CSS or PHP and write the code directly. And even that is somewhat limited when you consider that the last time I updated the software to include a new security update, it wiped out all the style choices I had coded in since the last update (except for the ones made to the forums, which has its own templates and style sheets).

I WISH it were simple enough as to give you a couple palette options that you can select from. In the meantime, I'll see if I can find a color set that works with as offwhite background. It'll require fixing some graphics and other stuff, so it'll take me a few days to get it all back to synched up.

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8 years 5 months ago #64 by Valentine

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Yolandria wrote: If colors are an issue wouldn't it be within the limits of this site to have a user control setting that allowed them to customize the colors as needed? Have it linked to user profiles so no matter what device they log in with it will display correctly?

But i have to say though. Complaining about too much white seems a bit extreme. I guess they don't read on real paper.

A lot of paper isn't pure white. It also doesn't shine into your eyes like looking at a light does.

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8 years 5 months ago #65 by Dawnfyre

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Yolandria wrote: But i have to say though. Complaining about too much white seems a bit extreme. I guess they don't read on real paper.

I don't read on GLOSSY paper, because the shine from it makes it hard to read.

and Kristin,
thanks for the background change, it definitely reduced the glare.

Stupidity is a capitol offense, a summary not indictable one.

8 years 5 months ago #66 by Yolandria

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If glare was such an issue for some people. You would think there would be an upsurge in anti-glare monitors or the clip on accessories that do the same thing. I don't know...Just sounds like some people looking for any reason to bitch about stuff when there is no need. And no Dawn that wasn't directed at you. Just the original example.

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8 years 5 months ago #67 by Camospam

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Is it possible to form a relationship with the similar themed sites (FM + BC) where each promotes the other sites?
Example: if you enjoyed reading WAU stories here, why not check out their full library at whateley.net
Scratch each other's backs.

I originally posted on Big Closet: and had some difficulty, but the support here has been much more personal - professional.
I am appreciative that Crystal Hall holds to a higher standard: the stories are expected to be of deeper substance and quality development, it means what I read will be enjoyable, however, that simple ideal is going to scare authors off, it certainly has intimidated me, but it's nessicary not only to preserve integrity of the canon, but ensure the reader isn't disappointed from coming here.

As a newbie I needed to learn that the canon authors are not here to hold anybodies hand or mentor a newcomer, niether will they read every piece of fan fiction and offer assistance to create the next great story.
The site does not edit or proofread no matter how much you wish it would. At its core it needs to be an idea exchange and testing ground, thankfully its also a means to check how far from canon a stories direction might be heading.

For the community to work it needs participants, if you want to get comments on your story - comment constructively on someone else's work ... they might return the favor. Who knows you might find a collaborator or just a new friend.

In the end, the idea is to present to people stories that make them want to come back - again and again.

8 years 5 months ago - 8 years 5 months ago #68 by Ametros

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Yolandria wrote: If glare was such an issue for some people. You would think there would be an upsurge in anti-glare monitors or the clip on accessories that do the same thing. I don't know...Just sounds like some people looking for any reason to bitch about stuff when there is no need. And no Dawn that wasn't directed at you. Just the original example.

Not to mention the multitude of programs such as f.lux and the like which tint the screen with softer colours.

Seriously, thank you for your time and effort. It is appreciated.

Last Edit: 8 years 5 months ago by Ametros.

8 years 5 months ago #69 by Kristin Darken

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Going back a page or two of posts to lighttech's response to my "wall of text".

I added some separation and section headings to help clarify which parts of what I was posting was about various points that people had brought up over the course of the thread that I had not yet responded to.

And light... you will never be banned for disagreeing with me. Or for presenting ideas that are not accepted. I get that people have different expectations for things and we simply don't have the time, money, or people to do everything. One of things that people who see our fairly exceptional collection of fan fiction think is that we are coaching them. That there is some sort of writing seminar / group here. And that's simply not true. We are not a fiction writing workshop site. At times there are enough writers actively involved in the community that people can learn from and get some feedback/coaching from people who are more experienced, that's true... but its not our purpose. It's pure good fortune and a benefit of being around some enough good authors.

But we always have to remember that the reason those authors are here are because they want to write... not because they want to teach someone else how to do what they do. I'm not averse to having such a program develop here... but I cannot pay or require that anyone who is part of the Whateley group participate in any way with it.

I have only personally given feedback in any detail to one author in the past three or four months... and that was Polk for his first release of Evershade. And he waited a LONG time for me to finally have time to focus on it and get details together. I'd like to think that it was ultimately worth the way, and that Polk's story benefitted from it, but I don't know.

I can say that there are now six WhatIF stories posted and another 5 things sitting in the "Requesting Feedback" queue... how many of those things have 'you' read and offered feedback on? And while you are upset that you haven't gotten feedback... I see Vantier sitting down in the 'in Progress' section. You shouldn't be getting feedback in the "in progress" section, as that is the section in which you are supposed to have your story while you edit it.

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8 years 5 months ago #70 by Astrodragon

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Can I just say that, personally, I don't like the blue background at all.

The white was better, easier to read (some of us have vision issues) and looked more professional.

Its easy enough to learn how to use the brightness control if you find the white too bright for you.

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8 years 5 months ago #71 by Nagrij

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Camospam wrote: Is it possible to form a relationship with the similar themed sites (FM + BC) where each promotes the other sites?
Example: if you enjoyed reading WAU stories here, why not check out their full library at whateley.net
Scratch each other's backs.

I originally posted on Big Closet: and had some difficulty, but the support here has been much more personal - professional.
I am appreciative that Crystal Hall holds to a higher standard: the stories are expected to be of deeper substance and quality development, it means what I read will be enjoyable, however, that simple ideal is going to scare authors off, it certainly has intimidated me, but it's nessicary not only to preserve integrity of the canon, but ensure the reader isn't disappointed from coming here.

As a newbie I needed to learn that the canon authors are not here to hold anybodies hand or mentor a newcomer, niether will they read every piece of fan fiction and offer assistance to create the next great story.
The site does not edit or proofread no matter how much you wish it would. At its core it needs to be an idea exchange and testing ground, thankfully its also a means to check how far from canon a stories direction might be heading.

For the community to work it needs participants, if you want to get comments on your story - comment constructively on someone else's work ... they might return the favor. Who knows you might find a collaborator or just a new friend.

In the end, the idea is to present to people stories that make them want to come back - again and again.

For your first point - It's a possibility. It's even a possibility the old CH had with BCTS, before it blew up. For some reason I don't think that move has been repeated. Not sure why, but it's worth looking into.

On my own part. I've literally been struggling with several different stories at once; not writer's block, not for me, oh no... instead I have to try and wrestle my muse back on task as she throws character after character after story concept into my face. Since I don't just write Whateley, that means most of what I'm getting right now isn't Whateley.

That's what I've been doing instead of offering feedback on the Whatif tales. Writing. Writing about 8 different things at once. when I haven't been writing, I've been editing, but it's been my own stuff, and a few other pieces from Canon.

When I get all that done, I'll certainly look into giving feedback for the fanfictions I've missed.

Also, astro is showing his curmudgeonly colors! Next he will order us all off his lawn, and tell us all about the good old days.

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8 years 5 months ago #72 by Astrodragon

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Nah, you kids are welcome to play on the lawn.

That's where I put the mines...

I love watching their innocent little faces smiling happily as they trip gaily down the garden path, before finding the pit with the rusty spikes.

8 years 5 months ago #73 by Valentine

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I remember when we had to hike four miles to school uphill both ways in a snow storm! And that was Summer School.

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8 years 5 months ago #74 by Kristin Darken

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To be honest, I don't really like the blue background either... and I haven't found a variant of it that I like any better than the one that it is currently set to. I'm trying to keep it as close to white as I can because too much color will result in contrast issues which will make reading hard too. And too little contrast will impact everyone, not just those people with their monitor brightness too high.

Traditionally, Whateley/Crystal Hall has been blue/white color palette (though Warren did have the forums slightly offwhite into a cool gray)... but the site and stories were straight up white background. So... while I'm willing to spend time playing with color palettes, lets ALL keep in mind that this has ZERO impact on a diminishing number of people coming to the site. Those people came to the old site with little to no comment about color. Also... both Fictionmania and Crystal's Story Site use a white background. As does "Archive of Our Own" ... which is a fiction archiving location serving almost a million users. Soooo... note that we're cooperating with requests but not because we believe our low numbers is a result of the new site's color palette.

I may try some browns/wood tones... I'm not all the modules are capable of supporting that range of colors though. Another option might be a green/olive direction. I'll continue to play with THAT if others will continue to discuss / solve the bigger issue.

Fate guard you and grant you a Light to brighten your Way.

8 years 5 months ago #75 by Kristin Darken

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Whatever color palette we end up with, looks like I need to give all the line break graphics a transparent background.

Fate guard you and grant you a Light to brighten your Way.

8 years 5 months ago #76 by cprime

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I suppose I'm a bit late to the party, but I might as well toss a couple thoughts in.

One effort that I've made to encourage other community members to add their own content to the site was my series of writing prompts. Unfortunately, they haven't elicited the feedback I was hoping for. While they aren't dead (I probably should post another from my list now that I've wrapped Homecoming 2026), I don't know that they are a particularly valuable resource. I've also been trying to read through some of the requesting feedback stories (time permitting), though that is a resource I don't have in abundance.

Is your muse looking for inspiration? Send them to Parkerville! Welcome to Parkerville is the latest edition in my series of writing prompts.

8 years 5 months ago #77 by lighttech

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Kristin Darken wrote:
1---I can say that there are now six WhatIF stories posted and another 5 things sitting in the "Requesting Feedback" queue... how many of those things have 'you' read and offered feedback on?

2---And while you are upset that you haven't gotten feedback... I see Vantier sitting down in the 'in Progress' section. You shouldn't be getting feedback in the "in progress" section, as that is the section in which you are supposed to have your story while you edit it.

1---I guess getting called out on editing Fan fic stuff was expected? And I have not even read all the present canon stuff listed on this very page today? heck not even 25% for various reasons.
I'll call that --the bite i was expecting

2--well that was my mistake and I did not know where to put it? or list it? or how to list it right? or format it right?
then? didn't that section change lately? I don't know anymore?
then I made the mistake of posting in the forums "Vantier chapter 1 discussion?" I was supposed to 'tag' it "feedback?" and I did that twice? Both for the hidden forum for fan fic and the general one that is now gone?
No one else noticed my mistakes? but I got nice "feedback" from Malady on the story that I am chewing on?
And some feedback on formatting?--but I guess that makes sense for a 'story in progress section?'

so I will call that lets say 15 mistakes I made just trying to post on one chapter of 12 I have done so far?
Like I said "stops signs" too hard to post?
now because I made one little mistake TIMES 15, I got all frustrated beyond measure and lost 5 month of maybe feedback?

nuke it from orbit --I'll think about starting over some day? I'll just leave what's here, for the readers and go from there?

Thanks Malady and PS for that input and PM's on this so far

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8 years 5 months ago #78 by Kristin Darken

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Here's the thing, light. We can bitch and complain about how things were done wrong, we can assign blame, we can be defensive back and forth about who did what, what wasn't clear, and why your specific story didn't get the acknowledgement you wanted. We can do that for weeks and it won't change that it happened. I'm sorry that you feel you were treated unfairly and that your expectations weren't met. We clearly weren't all on the same page.

But THAT won't solve the problem and prevent it from happening to the next author. Or to you the next time you try to post something.

So... instead of focusing on what happened, let's talk about what we can do NOW to make things work. If it makes everyone feel better, you can blame it ALL on me. My priorities and choices in establishing the new site, making it safe from the hacking problems that took down the old one, importing all the old content, and making it possible for the community to keep functioning... may not accommodate every single expectation and desire of every single person who participates. I TRY. But some expectations conflict with expectations that other members of the community have... and I have my own work, writing, and standards to balance too. So yes, mistakes were made, and if you don't want to shoulder any of the responsibilities for your part in it, you're welcome to blame it all on me.

BUT

having done that, come to the table without all the aggression and finger pointing... and offer observations and recommendations on how to make it better... instead of assigning blame for where it isn't what you wanted.

That's all I ask.

Fate guard you and grant you a Light to brighten your Way.

8 years 5 months ago #79 by Dawnfyre

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Astrodragon wrote: Can I just say that, personally, I don't like the blue background at all.

The white was better, easier to read (some of us have vision issues) and looked more professional.

Its easy enough to learn how to use the brightness control if you find the white too bright for you.

My original colour suggestion is the one I think works best for all, EEEEEE a less that full saturation white so not glare/glow.
( and my monitors are set to 45% brightness because of WHITE backgrounds, if they weren't, I would not be able to see any website at all. to bright )

Stupidity is a capitol offense, a summary not indictable one.

8 years 5 months ago #80 by lighttech

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what I am trying to show is not finger pointing or aggression ya miss read my stuff on that --but my utter confusion at what step goes where in a very complicated system at that time?
and maybe still now?

As I have not even glanced at the new style of posting for all the frustration the last time....heck I even got lost with the 'type face in BOLD' in the editor jumping all around suddenly for no reason? that took days to figure out, with googling like mad and asking a buddy of mine?

I am so confused now! I put stuff in the wrong spot all this time and my mistake I own it.
now I have 1 clue on what to do next time.

So I am going to as I said, 'push' off the table and leave this for now to let it cool off.

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8 years 5 months ago #81 by Kristin Darken

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Light... click on the Author menu button. It should open up the walkthrough guide that Phoenix-Spiritus wrote for WhatIF authors. It's a complete walkthrough for a beginner all the way through being published on the site. It's very detailed. Take a look through that and see if it clears things up for you.

Fate guard you and grant you a Light to brighten your Way.

8 years 5 months ago #82 by lighttech

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I'll give it a try?

but for now I will leave it alone till that 'bad taste' from my goof goes away

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8 years 5 months ago #83 by Phoenix Spiritus

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Brown on Blue? Especially light brown on medium blue?

How about we go back to dark blue and black text on white backgrounds and I help lighttech find the Brightness and contrast controls for their monitor? If that doesn't work, nearly all OSes have assistive options for those with sight problems that can change the colours of the screen, even switching black for white and visa versa, I'll help lighttech find those options as well, just spare me the colours! Light blue everywhere was barely acceptable.

8 years 5 months ago #84 by Kristin Darken

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I'm clearing the blue out entirely. But I can't do it all at once because I have over 7000 lines of CSS to go through to find the various points to fix... ideally, I'd do this on a non-active version of the site, but I don't have one set up. Give me a half hour and I'll have the core of it done.

Fate guard you and grant you a Light to brighten your Way.

8 years 5 months ago #85 by Valentine

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How about Wondercute colors?

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8 years 5 months ago #86 by Kristin Darken

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Getting close to having a 'brown/tan' layout... how's this suit people?

Fate guard you and grant you a Light to brighten your Way.

8 years 5 months ago #87 by NeoMagus

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Kristin Darken wrote: Getting close to having a 'brown/tan' layout... how's this suit people?

Seems pretty good to me so far.

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8 years 5 months ago #88 by Dreamer

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Yeah, this new color and background works better and is easy on the eyes when reading. Thanks for all your hard work with everything, Kristin.

Thank You for story comments appreciated and help me know me they are being read and liked.

Note: My story comments can't nor are trying to replace reading the stories, simply my way of enjoying them and letting the authors know I enjoy them.

8 years 5 months ago #89 by Kristin Darken

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Obviously, I have lots more to do to bring the whole layout into spec with this palette and I need to create some new line breaks and so forth before its all done... but this is what I had time for today. I like this better than the blue background... it's a little 'duller' than a white backdrop, but without coming across as unprofessional or outdated.

Thoughts... donations of graphics?

Fate guard you and grant you a Light to brighten your Way.

8 years 5 months ago #90 by Nagrij

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I do really like the brown and tan; it works well.

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8 years 5 months ago #91 by Kristin Darken

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Anyone who wants to take a stab at a Crystal Hall logo, its 400 x 90 pixel in its current incarnation... the one we were using at first with the blue/white template was 370x65. Anything in that vicinity should work... if multiple people make offerings, we'll vote or something.

Fate guard you and grant you a Light to brighten your Way.

8 years 5 months ago #92 by Phoenix Spiritus

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Something Crystal?

8 years 5 months ago #93 by Sir Lee

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Possibly something using an image of the Crystal Hall cafeteria as an element?

Just as an idea, most attempts I have seen in the past looked at the Crystal Hall from outside, emphasizing the geodesic dome. What about looking it from the inside, trying to convey its nature as a meeting place?

Whoever takes the challenge... you might want to consider a favicon-suitable simplified version to complement the main logo.

Don't call me "Shirley." You will surely make me surly.

8 years 5 months ago #94 by Kristin Darken

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The current favicon is a reduced variant of this:

Fate guard you and grant you a Light to brighten your Way.

Attachments:

8 years 5 months ago #95 by Astrodragon

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Actually the beige scheme is working better than I expected forme.

I'll forgo the old jokes about Kristin being taken over by IBM

I love watching their innocent little faces smiling happily as they trip gaily down the garden path, before finding the pit with the rusty spikes.

8 years 5 months ago #96 by rubberjohn

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Kristin,

While I don't wish to denigrate your efforts at adjusting the look and readability of the site but may I respectfully suggest that you leave it a day or two before you make any further changes. It seems that every time I visit the site this week there is a different look to it. The changes have been happening so quickly that I haven't really had a chance to really evaluate one change before the next takes effect.

I find the 'WTF has happened now?' factor when a page scheme I'm not expecting comes up somewhat offputting as I never know what to expect from one visit to the next.

John.

8 years 5 months ago #97 by Nagrij

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rubberjohn wrote: Kristin,

While I don't wish to denigrate your efforts at adjusting the look and readability of the site but may I respectfully suggest that you leave it a day or two before you make any further changes. It seems that every time I visit the site this week there is a different look to it. The changes have been happening so quickly that I haven't really had a chance to really evaluate one change before the next takes effect.

I find the 'WTF has happened now?' factor when a page scheme I'm not expecting comes up somewhat offputting as I never know what to expect from one visit to the next.

John.

The site... it's mutating! Gasp!

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8 years 5 months ago #98 by NeoMagus

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Kristin Darken wrote: The current favicon is a reduced variant of this...

Probably a dumb question, but...what's a favicon?

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8 years 5 months ago #99 by Sir Lee

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Favicons are small images (usually, but not always, in the Microsoft .ICO format) which some web browsers display in various places when the site is loaded. Some will display it in the URL bar, some will display it on the tab, and some will place the icon beside the site's name in your bookmarks/favourites and history.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Favicon

Don't call me "Shirley." You will surely make me surly.

8 years 5 months ago - 8 years 5 months ago #100 by NeoMagus

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Okay, here's something that I threw together real quick. Wasn't sure what color scheme would be best, but I tried to keep the new look of the site here in mind, so here are a couple different option that I thought might work.

Edit: Got some feedback about font and positioning, so here's another option:

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Attachments:

Last Edit: 8 years 5 months ago by NeoMagus.

8 years 5 months ago #101 by NeoMagus

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And here's two more options, this time using some resources from the wiki (one image in particular).

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Attachments:

8 years 5 months ago #102 by Kristin Darken

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*nods* the adjustment to the non-script font is much cleaner/clearer.

may I respectfully suggest that you leave it a day or two before you make any further changes

Given the time it takes (it took three or four hours to get THIS far and I'm probably still another four to six hours from getting ALL the things synched up) to do a style change site wide; you can be sure that I don't change things lightly. The change was, however, necessary to support the move away from a white background. That one supposedly subtle thing cascaded through the rest of the style in a way that looked bad... extremely unprofessional/sloppy... and given the choice to revert it (and piss off the people who had problems with the white background who had made an effort to come look and thank us for making the change) or move to something designed around not having a white background... I chose to move forward. Further changes are needed to finish out this look... but I think once those are done, this will be it unless software forces us to redesign again.

Fate guard you and grant you a Light to brighten your Way.

8 years 5 months ago #103 by lighttech

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NeoMagus wrote: And here's two more options, this time using some resources from the wiki (one image in particular).

I like!

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8 years 5 months ago #104 by NeoMagus

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lighttech wrote:
I like!

Which one? The crest on the right or the left?

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8 years 5 months ago #105 by lighttech

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NeoMagus wrote:
lighttech wrote:
I like!

Which one? The crest on the right or the left?

I could see either in use? matters on the webpage it fills, left oriented or right? The 'crest' should 'fall' on the far side from the pages orientation? like tetris?

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8 years 5 months ago #106 by elrodw

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The one with the crest is better, IMHO. On the left, I think - because I'm quite used to having crests, logos, symbols, etc on the left in all the presentations I do and see.

Never give up, Never surrender! Captain Peter Quincy Taggert

8 years 5 months ago - 8 years 5 months ago #107 by E. E. Nalley

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I like with the crest on the left as well. May I suggest the addition of the word "the" above Crystal Hall

I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.
Thomas Jefferson, to Archibald Stuart, 1791

Last Edit: 8 years 5 months ago by E. E. Nalley.

8 years 5 months ago #108 by Nagrij

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elrodw wrote: The one with the crest is better, IMHO. On the left, I think - because I'm quite used to having crests, logos, symbols, etc on the left in all the presentations I do and see.

Agreed, crest, and on the left. I'm not sure you can fit a "the" on top of crystal without squishing it, but you can try!

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8 years 5 months ago #109 by NeoMagus

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Ask and you shall receive!

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Attachments:

8 years 5 months ago #110 by Kettlekorn

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I mostly like it, but the way some of the letters intersect the boundary of the dome is kind of messy looking.

I am the kernel that pops in the night. I am the pain that keeps your dentist employed.

8 years 5 months ago #111 by NeoMagus

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(sigh) I'll see what I can do about that.

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8 years 5 months ago #112 by NeoMagus

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Any of these look better?

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8 years 5 months ago - 8 years 5 months ago #113 by Sir Lee

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I really don't like the slanted "The". But an horizontal "The" in roughly the same place (the "sky" triangular area) might work.

As for the position of the dome itself, I'm leaning towards the one that fills more of the rectangle. Or you might place it so the dome border hits exactly the corner of the rectangle, leaving just a narrow strip of sky above the top of the dome.

Don't call me "Shirley." You will surely make me surly.

Last Edit: 8 years 5 months ago by Sir Lee.

8 years 5 months ago #114 by NeoMagus

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Either of these then?

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8 years 5 months ago #115 by elrodw

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NeoMagus wrote: Either of these then?

I like this one the best so far.

Never give up, Never surrender! Captain Peter Quincy Taggert

8 years 5 months ago - 8 years 5 months ago #116 by NeoMagus

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Looking at that one again, I think I want to shrink the crest just a little bit more, because it looks a bit odd to have the crest touching the top border but not the bottom one.

Edit: There. That's better.

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Attachments:

Last Edit: 8 years 5 months ago by NeoMagus.

8 years 5 months ago #117 by E. E. Nalley

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Looks good

I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.
Thomas Jefferson, to Archibald Stuart, 1791

8 years 5 months ago #118 by elrodw

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I like it.

Now stick a fork in it and get back to writing story 5 or MM part 2 :twisted:

Never give up, Never surrender! Captain Peter Quincy Taggert

8 years 5 months ago #119 by Kettlekorn

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Yeah, I really like this last one. The only real criticisms I have left are that the text is a little blurred now, and there are some noticeable artifacts along the edge of the dome. Otherwise it's looking very nice.

I am the kernel that pops in the night. I am the pain that keeps your dentist employed.

8 years 5 months ago #120 by NeoMagus

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Final attempt, hopefully this looks a bit clearer. If not, well then we'll just have to deal with it, because I can't get it any better with the program I'm using.

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Attachments:

8 years 5 months ago #121 by Nagrij

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NeoMagus wrote: Looking at that one again, I think I want to shrink the crest just a little bit more, because it looks a bit odd to have the crest touching the top border but not the bottom one.

Edit: There. That's better.

Winner.

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8 years 5 months ago #122 by rubberjohn

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Nicely done NeoMagus. That looks quite professional and, IMO, adds an impression of quality to the heading.

John.

8 years 5 months ago #123 by Kristin Darken

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Placed in the header for evaluation in context.

Fate guard you and grant you a Light to brighten your Way.

8 years 5 months ago #124 by Valentine

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Looks good, but Wondercute colors would be better.

Don't Drick and Drive.

8 years 5 months ago - 8 years 5 months ago #125 by Dreamer

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Looks awesome as the header. Great work, NeoMagus. And no, Wondercute colors would not be better. They could clash with the site background colors and might scare some people away.

Thank You for story comments appreciated and help me know me they are being read and liked.

Note: My story comments can't nor are trying to replace reading the stories, simply my way of enjoying them and letting the authors know I enjoy them.

Last Edit: 8 years 5 months ago by Dreamer.

8 years 5 months ago - 8 years 5 months ago #126 by NeoMagus

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Kind of wish it could be longer to fill up that empty space in the middle...

Edit: Something like this, to fill more of the empty space, although I have no idea if Kristin could even use this, since it's 50% longer than the specifications she gave.

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Attachments:

Last Edit: 8 years 5 months ago by NeoMagus.

8 years 5 months ago #127 by Ametros

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NeoMagus wrote: Kind of wish it could be longer to fill up that empty space in the middle...

The problem with the space being that it doesn't exist for everybody. For example I just checked on my phone (which happens to be my primary reading device), and the banner fits perfectly when viewing the site in portrait.

I don't have issue with the site appearing as it does currently on PCs.

Seriously, thank you for your time and effort. It is appreciated.

8 years 5 months ago #128 by elrodw

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NeoMagus wrote: Kind of wish it could be longer to fill up that empty space in the middle...

Edit: Something like this, to fill more of the empty space, although I have no idea if Kristin could even use this, since it's 50% longer than the specifications she gave.

Step. Away. From. The. Program.

We have a winner. Stop second-guessing yourself and trying to get from 98% satisfaction to 100%. It's good enough. Besides, every time you change it, Kristin spends time NOT WRITING Esoteric or Jimmy.

Now get back to your stories

Never give up, Never surrender! Captain Peter Quincy Taggert

8 years 5 months ago #129 by NeoMagus

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Okay, okay, sheesh.

Sorry for letting my perfectionist side show. Let me go ahead and rein it in.

...
...
...

Ah, there. That feels much better now!

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8 years 5 months ago #130 by Astrodragon

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Now we're going full back-to-the-80's beige, can I put in a request for disco balls?

I love watching their innocent little faces smiling happily as they trip gaily down the garden path, before finding the pit with the rusty spikes.

8 years 5 months ago #131 by elrodw

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Astrodragon wrote: Now we're going full back-to-the-80's beige, can I put in a request for disco balls?

Devisor disco balls

Never give up, Never surrender! Captain Peter Quincy Taggert

8 years 5 months ago #132 by E. E. Nalley

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Astrodragon wrote: Now we're going full back-to-the-80's beige, can I put in a request for disco balls?

It's not beige, it's taupe. And no you can't have disco balls because that would defeat the purpose of having a shade of taupe. Taupe is soothing. Disco balls would get people excited.

I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.
Thomas Jefferson, to Archibald Stuart, 1791

8 years 5 months ago #133 by Valentine

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E. E. Nalley wrote:
Astrodragon wrote: Now we're going full back-to-the-80's beige, can I put in a request for disco balls?

It's not beige, it's taupe. And no you can't have disco balls because that would defeat the purpose of having a shade of taupe. Taupe is soothing. Disco balls would get people excited.

Not PASTEL Colored, Bugs designed, Wondercute Disco Balls.

Don't Drick and Drive.

8 years 5 months ago #134 by NeoMagus

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What, the new geodesic dome pictured in the top left corner isn't enough for you guys? (It even looks like a disco ball if you squint...)

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8 years 5 months ago #135 by Astrodragon

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elrodw wrote:
Astrodragon wrote: Now we're going full back-to-the-80's beige, can I put in a request for disco balls?

Devisor disco balls

mmm, Haloween party...

I love watching their innocent little faces smiling happily as they trip gaily down the garden path, before finding the pit with the rusty spikes.

8 years 5 months ago - 8 years 5 months ago #136 by DanZilla

DanZilla

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elrodw wrote:
NeoMagus wrote: Kind of wish it could be longer to fill up that empty space in the middle...

Edit: Something like this, to fill more of the empty space, although I have no idea if Kristin could even use this, since it's 50% longer than the specifications she gave.

Step. Away. From. The. Program.

We have a winner. Stop second-guessing yourself and trying to get from 98% satisfaction to 100%. It's good enough. Besides, every time you change it, Kristin spends time NOT WRITING Esoteric or Jimmy.

Now get back to your stories

Additionally, headers are kept to that shorter length for a reason... imagine how it'll look on a phone or tablet in portrait orientation if it was longer like that... okay, maybe not too bad... but not every device handles elements the same way.

Last Edit: 8 years 5 months ago by DanZilla.

8 years 5 months ago - 8 years 5 months ago #137 by Sir Lee

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Now that the banner graphic is settled...

...may I offer a very small suggestion regarding the text line just below it?
It currently reads "For fans and authors of the Whateley Academy Universe."
I think it might sound better as "The meeting place for fans and authors of the Whateley Academy Universe."

Don't call me "Shirley." You will surely make me surly.

Last Edit: 8 years 5 months ago by Sir Lee.

8 years 5 months ago #138 by Arcanist Lupus

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So far, I haven't commented on all the design changes. But I wanted to take a moment to say that while it will take me a while to get used to anything other than the traditional blue and white, the new colors and logo look really good. Thank you very much to everyone who put time and effort into creating them.

I briefly thought of proposing a geodesic dome style background. But then I realized that a) such a pattern would be far to busy to look good, and b) a geodesic dome flattened onto a 2-D surface would just be a grid of hexagons, which would be boring. The background looks great the way it is. Please don't listen to my terrible ideas. I don't know why I'm sharing them. I also don't know why I'm commenting on my sharing them. I also don't know - actually, that's a lie. I'm commenting on that because I like recursion. I'm going to shut up now.

"Shared pain is lessened; shared joy, increased — thus do we refute entropy." - Spider Robinson

8 years 5 months ago #139 by elrodw

elrodw
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I'm kind of getting the impression from the serious slowdown of fan-fic and micro-scenes that one of two things is happening:

1) it's a general slowdown in people dealing with real-life and not having time to write,
or
2) there's some perception that the ONLY forum for fan-fic now is WhatIF.

If it's 1, we have to address our site traffic.
if it's 2, perhaps we need to make that more clear - an FAQ perhaps? Is there a general awareness that authors don't HAVE to promote their stories to WhatIF? Is there a feeling or sense that only stuff promoted to WhatIF is good, and that's discouraging to those who want to write casually? If so, how do we counter that?

It used to be that fan-fic was a major component of the Whateley Universe, and I'm sure it was a draw for casual writers and readers who enjoy fan-fic. Have we lost that?

Just asking - I'm in a contemplative mood this morning - let's blame an extra hour of sleep

Never give up, Never surrender! Captain Peter Quincy Taggert

8 years 5 months ago #140 by Malady

Malady

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Are links sort of hard to see? With dark brown link text being hard to tell from black normal text?

Archives: Rubberjohn's Fanfic + CrystalHall + Mittfh's Wordcount Spreadsheet

My Patreon. But, support the Crystal Hall 1st?

8 years 5 months ago #141 by Esar

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elrodw wrote: 1) it's a general slowdown in people dealing with real-life and not having time to write,
or
2) there's some perception that the ONLY forum for fan-fic now is WhatIF.

I would lean more toward the first possibility than the second. That being said, I do think a FAQ could be a good Idea. It would help clearing possible misconception.

8 years 5 months ago #142 by Kristin Darken

Kristin Darken

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You guys realize that ANYONE can write FAQ's... or generate story lists... or pretty much anything you want... on an article page? Just because you're set up to write WhatIF stories with author status, you can develop anything you think we need and then say "hey, we think you should post this on the Community page instead of the Forum rules" ... you can also develop reading order lists. information gathered across multiple stories. all sorts of stuff...

the only real challenge is that if you come up with something really unique, I'll have to figure out how to categorize it and link to it for displaying it where you want it.

Fate guard you and grant you a Light to brighten your Way.

8 years 5 months ago #143 by Kettlekorn

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The new color scheme has been reminding me of something, but I couldn't put my finger on just what until tonight.

Instant maple brown sugar oatmeal.

I mean this as a compliment.

I am the kernel that pops in the night. I am the pain that keeps your dentist employed.

8 years 5 months ago #144 by Kristin Darken

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*NODNOD* You see into the heart of my inspiration.

Fate guard you and grant you a Light to brighten your Way.

8 years 5 months ago #145 by Nagrij

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Kettlekorn wrote: The new color scheme has been reminding me of something, but I couldn't put my finger on just what until tonight.

Instant maple brown sugar oatmeal.

I mean this as a compliment.

The king of all instant oatmeals.

www.patreon.com/Nagrij

If you like my writing, please consider helping me out, and see the rest of the tales I spin on Patreon.

8 years 5 months ago #146 by rubberjohn

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I must admit that this colour scheme is not something I would have considered myself. But it certainly is more restful on my tired old eyes though. Thanks for your efforts Kristen.

John.

8 years 5 months ago #147 by elrodw

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One thing I've seen is a dearth of Micro-scenes and plain fan-fic (non-WhatIF). Several micro-scenes a week gave me an incentive to come back and check periodically during the week because there was new content. The same would apply to plain fan-fic in installments (but for me, as a canon author, I tend to not read fan-fic to avoid even the appearance of plagiarism). That's slowed down a lot, which makes me sad because there were many GREAT micro-scenes.

Please - get busy and write micro-scenes! I need my daily fix!

Never give up, Never surrender! Captain Peter Quincy Taggert

8 years 5 months ago #148 by Kettlekorn

Kettlekorn

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Okay.

I am the kernel that pops in the night. I am the pain that keeps your dentist employed.

8 years 5 months ago #149 by Esar

Esar

Posts: 328

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I am not the most attentive person in the world, but I think the "Sponsors" and "Offsite Links" are new additions to the "Community" section. Am I wrong ?

8 years 5 months ago #150 by NeoMagus

NeoMagus

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Birthdate: 26 Jul 1991

Not wrong as far as I can tell. I don't recall seeing them before either.

... . . -.- / .--- ..- ... - .. -.-. . .-.-.- / .-.. --- ...- . / -- . .-. -.-. -.-- .-.-.- / .-- .- .-.. -.- / .... ..- -- -... .-.. -.-- / .-- .. - .... / -.-- --- ..- .-. / --. --- -.. .-.-.-

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