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Question WA stories in other media?

8 years 1 month ago - 8 years 1 month ago #1 by Schol-R-LEA
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  • I know this was talked to death in the old forum, but I don't recall it coming up recently (though I wasn't exactly looking for it). Has there been any serious discussion about what it would take to license some or all of the existing stories (or material derived from them) for anything such as an animated series?

    Setting aside the fact that it would be more of a pipedream than a real prospect (more on this later), I expect that this would be a real nightmare with regards to ownership, especially of characters and stories which were created by members who have since fallen off the Canon Cabal's radar, such as Liliandra and ScramblerJ. Is there any standing agreement - legally binding or otherwise - between the Canon Cabal (TINCC) in this regards, assuming that this question itself isn't out of bounds for someone not in the CC, and if so, what is the practical upshot of it?

    I am asking out of more than curiosity and fantasizing about a WA movie franchise. I have a friend who has been producing independent films for the past five years, admittedly with only moderate success but still as a profitable venture. He occasionally rumbles about the prospect of starting an animation studio, but it has only been an idea so far, as that is something which takes a very large investment to get started, and a significant profit margin to keep operating. Aside from this, at least two of his films have been low-budget Scifi pieces in the vein of Troma, and he's always looking for new material for those, as well.

    I have not brought up the idea of licensing the WA stories to him yet, and won't, unless I get reason to think that the ownership tangle won't need the sword of Alexander The Great to cut. While I have told him about the series (long before he got into film), he honestly wasn't impressed, but he might change his mind - if those who have the real say in it, that is to say the CC, give me the go-ahead to raise the topic with him.

    I am concerned that even asking this might be stepping on some toes, so I want to make it clear that this is really only an idea of an idea, and not anything close to a real proposal yet. There are a lot of concerns that would need to be addressed, and any story - regardless of content - would need significant changes when moving from one medium to another. There are plenty of things in WA that would not work on film, and others where rights issues about material referenced by Whateley (e.g., Ryoko's appearance) would need to be addressed, either by working out the rights or making changes to the stories. This is not an insignificant topic, and I would not want to second-guess any of the actual authors for the series on it.

    Out, damnéd Spot! Bad Doggy!
    Last Edit: 8 years 1 month ago by Schol-R-LEA.
    8 years 1 month ago #2 by Nagrij
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  • Well, hypothetically, and purely hypothetically, I do know that while second gen hasn't tango'd into hearts yet the way gen 1 has, from a legal perspective the waters there are less muddy.

    Much would need to be edited changed and altered before any sort of series like that could occur; I don't know if the tincc would want to make the effort required, even if all the permissions came in.

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    8 years 1 month ago #3 by Phoenix Spiritus
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  • As far as Gen 1 is concerned, the stories are all owned by their individual Authors, and we've not even had contact with some of those in a long time.

    If you could get responses to the missing Authors their friends would really love to talk to them sometime, but I suspect it would be an impossible task to get the royalties sorted.
    8 years 1 month ago #4 by E. E. Nalley
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  • Actually that was decided upon quite a long time ago. At the request of the Other authors, I wrote the following document establishing these rights and ownership over 12 years ago.


    A Whateley Academy Tale
    Submission Guidelines

    First off, all of us are pleased and flattered our work has been so well received in the community. So much so, that we’ve already started to get requests for writing, prompting this guide line. If you’re not interested in writing in the Whateley Academy Universe, you need not read any further.

    If you are interested in writing in the universe, there are some things you should be aware of first.

    1 Acceptance of submission means and requires that you give your consent for your characters to appear in stories other accepted authors write in the Universe. A certain amount of professional courtesy is expected for such appearances. The characters creating author has final say on how their character is portrayed.

    2 The Universe Creators have final say on whether or not something fits or is allowed to happen in that universe. There are NO exceptions to this rule.

    3 The Universe Creators are the authors writing under the names, Bek D. Corvin, Maggie Finson, Starwolf, Babs Yeruncle and Scrambler J.

    4 The Submitting Author (that’s you) agree to any contract of publishment to be negotiated by the Universe Creators. Such a contract shall be negotiated in good faith and you will be paid an equitable sum for any story/novel/novella etc, to be published in hard format. Further, should such a contract be signed, you agree, sight unseen to the choices of the Universe Creators and grant them and their Publisher right of first release.

    Since Bek is still here he controls these rights.

    I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.
    Thomas Jefferson, to Archibald Stuart, 1791
    8 years 1 month ago #5 by Kristin Darken
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  • Gen 2 was implemented under these rules with one variant... that upon their absence from active participation in the process of continuing the plotline, Gen 2 authors relinquish control over their character for the purposes of moving forward with the universe. They would still be credited for work they completed and as the character creator (with any earnings that might happen to exist as a result of that) but the team would gain the right to write future works as needed for the evolution of the story, even if that means an evolution of the character, plans for them, and so forth.

    Not that we wouldn't do our best to make sure any contributors benefit from movie deals and so forth if they ever happened... but we wanted to be realistic about the 'lost author' situation... and ensure that such challenges as Gen 1's plotline faced cannot happen to Gen 2.



    In all honesty... we've answered fairly bluntly that reworking the universe to meet the demands of published work or release in another media format would require a LOT of work. And that's true. But not so much that it would be impossible. Not all that much more than the editorial process of any other series of novels being prepared for publishing or conversion to webcomic, video/screenplay. Tennyo would be a 'big' challenge... but not insurmountable. Clearly, she cannot be Ryoko... but a retcon that makes her take on traits of an anime figure similar to Ryoko for an anime that only exists in the WU is certainly doable without breaking the character concept. Ayla's Marvel buyout and other trademark name issues can be dealt with the way every other universe deals with them.

    Its actually possible that working out how to handle the 'business' of it all would actually be more complicated than the writing/retcon that would be necessary. But don't get me wrong... reworking 9 million words of existing text into a collection of publishable novels would NOT be light work. It would probably be far easier to write unique stories in the universe for conversion to comic or screenplay than to work from the existing text... but if I were to try, I might do something like:

    Stopping the Ninja's
    Jade's origin
    Chaka in martial arts class
    Jade against Bloodwolf
    Nikki in Magick class
    The Brawl with the Alphas
    Ayla and the art of Investment... and holdouts
    The Boston Brawl
    Hank and paper swords
    Billie and the sim with 'Hades' and her rescue of her family (flashback)
    The Halloween Invasion

    Second movie would be the Outcasts line

    Outcast Corner - jam session
    Combat sims - drawing from a lot of the sim finals
    Hit the ranges with Erik and show the video
    Intersect the Halloween Invasion, showing non-Kimba battles ending with Erik going 'boom'
    Introduce Eldritch
    Interlude with Jobe and the drow harem
    The Voodoo wolves / intersect with TK
    The Darwin series
    the formation of Wondercute


    Third movie?

    Atm, I think it'd probably be the leadup to the formation of the Atlantean League... so the bringing together of Kodiak, Loophole, and Kayda, and the reformation of Tansy. Harder to say 'exactly' what scenes would be the core thread of that one though... would probably include the death of Aung, the redemption of Skybolt/Cav, but I'd have to think more on it to pin down the 'full' arc.

    Fate guard you and grant you a Light to brighten your Way.
    8 years 1 month ago #6 by Schol-R-LEA
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  • Hmmn, OK, so at least as far as the series itself is concerned, there would not be any critical limitations on signing such a deal... that's a starting point.

    As for Tennyo, it would probably be easiest to make up an in-series Expy for Ryoko and the Tenchi Muyo as a whole, presumably a series about a Space Pirate. It isn't too hard to come up with a suitable series title, for example, Heavenly Pirate Queen Aya (according to Google Translate, in Japanese this would be 天の海賊女王彩, or transliterated, "Ten no kaizoku joō aya"; I would ask one of our Japanese-speaking members to correct this, but since it is only an example there isn't any real need. Also, I haven't actually read Ceres, and don't really know much about it other than the names of some characters, but the tennyo connection seemed appropriate).

    On a not entirely unrelated note, having asked all this, I would like to ask about another possibility I have been kicking around for a while but have hesitated to mention. I am not a game developer - yet -and may never be one, but I am considering experimenting with some game ideas. One thing that came to mind as a possibility was a fighting game - probably closer to Street Fighter than, say, Mortal Kombat or Soul Calibur, but I just don;t know yet - and it seemed like theming it on the Whateley BMA classes would at least give me a justification for the action.

    Even if I were to do this (not sure I would), it most likely would never see the light of day - I have enough sense to know that Baby's First Video Game generally shouldn't get uploaded to itch.io or even Newgrounds, never mind asking for votes on Cleveland Steamlight (which is going away anyway, but whatever) - but I would still want the Greenlight :silly: fro the Canon Cabal (TINCC) before doing so. Like with the animation idea, there is little chance of this reaching more than the daydream stage, but I thought I would bring it up.

    Out, damnéd Spot! Bad Doggy!
    8 years 1 month ago #7 by Malady
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  • ^ Have you heard of MUGEN?

    There are other free fighting game engines, I think? ... Could take something existing and reskin??
    8 years 1 month ago #8 by Kristin Darken
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  • If you have this sort of project in mind, I have two recommendations.

    1. Don't propose it to the Cabal until you are 100% serious that you are going to pursue it. You will, literally, be entering into a contract with us and there will be commitments and expectations on both sides that will not work out well in the event of projects that go 'off the rails'. For example, selling the rights to use concepts and characters in a video game... is something we can't do multiple times, as most such projects require exclusivity. And even if you don't, there's no guarantee that the next person won't. So if we sell that first attempt to you for a case of beer and then EA games approaches us, its not even an option to sign with EA (even though I think most of us value our souls, tarnished as they are, too much to sign with EA). And given that you're probably looking at 'after the fact' compensation instead payment up front (your project doesn't HAVE a studio's finances behind you to purchase IP up front), our % cut of an 'incomplete' project is 0.

    2. When you do propose it, have enough of it fleshed out that you can really sell the project to us. How are you going to incorporate the IP? What's it going to look like? How's it going to play? Most industry projects have to create a working demo to get access to valuable IP.

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    8 years 1 month ago #9 by Nagrij
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  • It could be worse than EA Kristin... it could be Capcom.

    (A little street fighter 5 and marvel vs Capcom joke.)

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    8 years 1 month ago #10 by E. E. Nalley
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  • EA's money is green, has pictures of dead presidents and founding fathers, and spends, that's all I care about.

    :evil:

    I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.
    Thomas Jefferson, to Archibald Stuart, 1791
    8 years 1 month ago #11 by MageOhki
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  • The fundamental truth of it, EE, the truth!
    8 years 1 month ago - 8 years 1 month ago #12 by Schol-R-LEA
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  • I'm going to have to disagree with EE and MageOkhi on this, not specifically about EA (though they certainly are an example of the sort of company who would be problematic to deal with). When preparing a contract, especially with a large corporate entity, there's a lot more to take into consideration than just the bottom line.

    The thing is, even a simple contract can hide a lot of nasty traps, not always ones which were deliberately planted by any of the parties to the contract.

    While a large corporation will generally avoid inserting the sort of petty, small-time loopholes and trickery that some individuals or smaller companies might try, they will put a lot of thought into how to get the most out of the deal with the least amount of effort, and counting on them not robbing you may be taken as an open invitation to grab everything in sight.

    It goes far beyond monetary worth, as well. A business deal influences public image, and puts a certain amount of each parties' reputation in the hands of the other parties.

    In this case, I suspect most corporate entities would want to avoid WA, rather than the reverse, because of some of things in the series (more about frank discussion about teen sexuality than about the transgender material, actually; the latter is controversial and would result in a bunch of Gamergate-style grumbling about "social justice warriors" - hey, just having a female protagonist in anything but a shoot-em-up game, or one whose character model isn't pure fanservice, gets that - but has enough positive sentiment that they might take a flyer on it, but in the US at least, admitting that teens have sexual desires is strictly out of bounds for anything except a PSA or some kind of afternoon-special type of finger-wagging). Even if there is nothing about that sort of thing in the game itself, you can bet some troll or someone with a beef with either the studio or WA would dig into the series itself looking for material to smear the game with by using it out of context.

    In the case of EA, they don't (AFAIK) have too bad a reputation for deals with rights-holders, though they are rather, ah, clingy once they do get them and can try to block deals in other media on the same properties (OK, maybe it isn't that good a rep, either). Most of the ire aimed at them is for a) pumping out endless streams of clones of their previous successes on a nearly-annual basis (especially their cash cows, the FIFA, Madden, and Call of Duty series), and b) buying out smaller studios (e.g., Maxis, Westwood, Bullfrog, Origin, etc.) and then driving them into the ground by executive meddling that made the previously successful titles unplayable. They are hardly the only large studio guilty of such things, but they are, shall we say, an easy target because of their high-handed approach to public relations.

    Out, damnéd Spot! Bad Doggy!
    Last Edit: 8 years 1 month ago by Schol-R-LEA.
    8 years 1 month ago #13 by E. E. Nalley
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  • *sigh* It's a shame that English seems to be losing its nuance as a language and certain things which used to be givens now seem to have fallen out of the common assumptions of dialogue. While I am flippant about my comment which can be boiled down to, "show me the money!" No one in their right mind is going to deal with a company of any size, let alone a megalith like electronic arts, without retaining the services of serious lawyers.

    I trust Bek to do so when negotiating on our behalf, and should he require some amount of capital for retainers for such negotiations you may rest assured that the cabal will assist him, or a call be put out to the fan base to contribute.

    I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.
    Thomas Jefferson, to Archibald Stuart, 1791
    8 years 1 month ago #14 by Valentine
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  • Too bad Phase, Nephandus, and Diamonback aren't available.

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    8 years 1 month ago #15 by Schol-R-LEA
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  • Sarcasm is generally very difficult to convey in the written word without really crazy exaggeration.

    To be fair, you did use what I would normally assume was crazy exaggeration, and I wasn't sure if you were serious or not. The problem is, lately I've seen too many otherwise sane people say things like that without a hint of sarcasm, and defend that position fiercely. I wish I were kidding.

    Out, damnéd Spot! Bad Doggy!
    8 years 1 month ago #16 by null0trooper
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  • E. E. Nalley wrote: I trust Bek to do so when negotiating on our behalf, and should he require some amount of capital for retainers for such negotiations you may rest assured that the cabal will assist him, or a call be put out to the fan base to contribute.


    When money or property is involved, sometimes the surest way to make sure that friends and family stay friends and family is to hire a lawyer who isn't a friend or family from the start.

    Forum-posted ideas are freely adoptable.

    WhatIF Stories: Buy the Book

    Discussion Thread
    5 years 10 months ago - 5 years 10 months ago #17 by Schol-R-LEA
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  • (Yes, I know, more thread necromancy. Rat me out to Grimes later if you care to.)

    Given some of the anime series that have actually made it to broadcast or cable television in Japan (e.g, last year's Sōryo to Majiwaru Shikiyoku no Yoru ni... , derisively referred to by critics as 'Fifty Shades of Buddha' or even 'Rape Monk'), I am pretty much convinced that there would be no problem finding an animation studio that would make a WA series - but a lot of trouble keeping them from turning into a Panty Fighter or worse.

    To put it another way, the problem isn't in finding a studio that would work with the material; it's finding a reputable one which will, who would abide by the stipulations of the Canon Cabal, and not turn the series into soft-core porn.

    (Yes, I know that the fourth part of "The Second Book of Jobe" gets pretty explicit, among other places, and a number of stories get pretty frank about anatomy, menstruation, and things like that, but I think we can all agree that those aren't the main themes of WA.)

    Conversely, it would probably also be easy to find a studio who are looking to chomp on Boku no Academia's success and would see a watered-down version of WA as an easy way to do that. Personally, I don't really see that as any better. While some compromises would have to be made, if only because of the differences in the media, there's little point in an adaptation if it barely resembles the original.

    Either way, any deal would have to be very carefully considered by the CC, if at all.

    I would also be concerned that someone might simply come along and rip the series off flat-out, the way Sparkling Generation Valkyrie Yuuki was by the 'creators' of Saint Warrior Girl Valkyrie .

    (I'm trying to remember if this has actually happened before; I seem to recall a warning on the old Crystal Hall forum that someone had made some Lulu Press books of the series without permission, and that you shouldn't buy them because the proceeds weren't going to the CC.)

    Anyway, I'm not sure why I wanted to chime in with that right now - I mean, this isn't anything new, far from it - but I guess it's been on my mind today.

    Out, damnéd Spot! Bad Doggy!
    Last Edit: 5 years 10 months ago by Schol-R-LEA.
    5 years 10 months ago #18 by CrazyMinh
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  • Honestly, I think that it'd be better served as a TV show, either animated or live-action. It would also be best served being a online exclusive.

    Why?

    Because streaming gets more viewers than cable/free-to-air; and with the exception of Netflix, all the other services are crap (especially GreedBS All Access)...oh, and #GreedBS by the way.

    Sorry, couldn't resist that jab. Shutting up now.

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    Jokes aside, I think a comic would be nice in lieu of any other formats. I mean...it does fit with the origins of the entire shtick anyway, in a X-men AU fic.

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    5 years 10 months ago - 5 years 10 months ago #19 by Schol-R-LEA
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  • I agree that a television (or more likely, Internet) series would probably serve WA best, and that an animated series would probably make the most sense, as well.

    However, given the sheer number of plotlines involved in just the origin stories, I think that it would have to have a vastly trimmed set of main plot lines, with a lot of the less main-line stories used for OVAs or the equivalent - extras for those who want more of the series beyond the main story arcs, as it were. This would make it easier for viewers to get interested without a lot of extra detail which would slow the pacing, while still telling most if not all of the stories.

    I should add that when I mentioned the possibility of some studio trying to turn WA into a 'watered-down Boku no Academia clone', I didn't mean to imply that BnA was in any ways watered-down; I don't really know the series that well, but my impression is that it is anything but weaksauce. However, it also sounds like a very different series than WA, and that trying to make WA more like My Hero Academia would do both series a disservice. Besides, companies that do that sort of 'follow the leader' strategy tend to be risk averse, usually leading them to make a copy which is only a faint echo of the original.

    Out, damnéd Spot! Bad Doggy!
    Last Edit: 5 years 10 months ago by Schol-R-LEA.
    5 years 10 months ago #20 by Kristin Darken
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  • As I've noted to Schol-R-LEA in PM, the idea of doing a 'reduction' version of the canon storyline for animation or for print publication is not unique. One of the biggest difficulties is in handling the rights and royalties for the original creators, especially those who are no longer active parts of the community. But if we were able to work out the legal difficulties, two things would be priorities.

    First, we'd have to trim a number of 'visible' elements that are copyright / trademark elements that we would never run into problem with as free online content... but definitely would get legal attention if we started accumulating royalties. Its not as insurmountable a challenge as it sounds but it would take some major re-writes. But ....

    Second, it would also need significant reduction. In truth, there's plenty of room for sprawling journal entry style writing with mention of every detail covering every detail of every day in online fiction... paying customers tend to start getting feisty if you don't progress the plot after 100k words (a 400 pg novel). I completely expect 13 million words of Gen 1 canon could be compressed into a much more engaging and active 3 million words. And if the writing was cleaned up in the process... well.. some of our early stuff was rocky. Some of our recent stuff is rocky. I wouldn't pass up a hard core editorial pass on any of it. Not as a change to the original releases... but as a adaptation / reprint? Oh yes. The fact that 3 million words is just over 30ish novels vs 150 for the collection as is? Well... I know which I'd find easier to sell.

    As for web comic or animation projects? What you should keep in mind is that anything you do should be done in cooperation with the canon team. Any agreement we make is going to give one or more of us oversight / veto authority... yes, you can always do a WhatIF version (as long as you aren't making any money from it), but we're not averse to seeing someone try. But we DO expect it to be handled with care and to standards. If you want to use the content as a means of honing your craft, that's awesome, we're flattered that you're inspired that way. But if you want to take the WA universe and do a web comic or an animation and you don't do as professionally as possible? We are probably going to ask you to stop. And before you take money for it, please take the time to work up a contract with us. That'll protect you as much as us.

    Fate guard you and grant you a Light to brighten your Way.
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