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Question Actionable Change's Open Letter

8 years 6 days ago #1 by Arcanist Lupus
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    • Yesterday I was listening to a story on the radio about an open letter to the Marine Corps about misogyny in the Corps.

    As this is a subject that I have almost no familiarity with, I was hoping to get some perspectives from this community.


    Obviously, this is a sensitive topic, so please take special effort to be tone-conscious when responding.


    Oh, yeah. Here is the NPR story that I listened to.
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    8 years 6 days ago #2 by JG
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    • What's your question?
    8 years 6 days ago #3 by JG
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    • Letter seems accurate. Bear in mind I served with no women, as I was infantry.

    My sister served, and I'm willing to bet money she doesn't talk about that shit. Though there were a few marines I warned to stay away from her, or else.

    The military is, at best, an unfriendly place. At worst, it can be witheringly bad. It doesn't shock me that this is a thing.

    Thing to remember is that Marines don't tend to be stupid. They're usually cunning , creative and able to suss out weakpoints in others like sharks smelling blood. Marine stupid actually tends to be more of the "hold my beer and watch this" variety. The culture mirrors that sort of situation.
    8 years 6 days ago #4 by Kristin Darken
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    • I also didn't serve with women... they were just starting to work out the logistics for putting women on combat vessels when I was getting out. It's just as well... because, in my experience, most military men fall into one of two categories... they either:

    1. respect the hell out of women because they were raised that way and will throw down at the drop of a hat to fight (teach a lesson to) someone who disrespects a woman. These are, incidentally, also the guys who don't want women in combat settings because they think women should be protected not put into danger.

    2. think there is one and only one use for women and any woman who is not their mother is a whore... either taking money directly for sex, or less directly through the girlfriend/marriage route. These guys are generally ok with women in combat situations because they see them as a way to get around not having sex during longer deployments. But they aren't going to give those women credit for having knowledge/skill beyond bedwarmer.

    Neither one is especially contemporary on their viewpoints of women and both attitudes tend to lead to a lot of fighting. It'd be interesting to go back and see how things have changed.... though I suspect the change is less than I'd expect given they've had twenty years to work things out.
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    8 years 6 days ago #5 by JG
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    • Doesn't generally help that your girlfriend will inevitably be referred to as "Suzy Rottencrotch" some time during your service.
    8 years 6 days ago #6 by Phoenix Spiritus
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    • It's hardly unique to the US Marines
    8 years 6 days ago - 8 years 6 days ago #7 by Valentine
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    • I was in the Army 30 years ago, and didn't serve with any women, rarely saw any in uniform too. But I have to agree with Kristin's assessment.

    To be honest it wasn't limited to women either. Anything odd tended to get people singled out. Speech difficulties, weird accents, weird looks, acting odd.

    One Friday evening my First Sergeant called out for a volunteer, which got a moan from the unit, he said he needed someone to take a squeaky new private into Louisville to get him laid because he was a virgin.
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    Last Edit: 8 years 6 days ago by Valentine.
    8 years 6 days ago #8 by Yolandria
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    • Doesn't generally help that your girlfriend will inevitably be referred to as "Suzy Rottencrotch" some time during your service.


    Don't forget about her pretty pink panties. :ohmy:
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    8 years 6 days ago #9 by Yolandria
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    • But in all seriousness. I'm saddened to hear about that scandal. Does it surprise me? No...Will things change or will they get swept under the rug? Who knows. I do hope it changes. Our forces do need to maintain discipline and be ready for the challenges ahead. Not be stupid and divisive. Bad enough we have enough issues stateside. We don't need something like this creating issues abroad.
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    8 years 6 days ago #10 by MageOhki
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    • I'll be blunt, I've been out for over a decade and plus, myself, mind you. Like Joe, Infantry, though I went officer and the Green machine. Pretty much as Joe and Kristen described in the Army, though to a lesser extent. Not only did I do most of my infantry time in the 75th, where we had a slightly HIGHER cut of people, (not much), by and large, almost every Army guy had to deal with a woman in uniform every day (Even in the 90's, at least 15% of the Army (rough guess) was female, and a LOT of support positions). Still, sexism in the combat arms was alive and well from my memories in the 90's

    (Side note: Kristen? That may be true for enlisted. I'll say this for my views on women in combat. That Marine Lt. Colonel who said "They can't cut it, in general" sums it up. Woman can do the job to the letter, same as the guys? Meh, fine. Generally (though there's issues of frat, and how women/men approach social interaction, but knowing a few Navy pilots of both genders, the ones who tend to shoot for that stuff, tend to be able to play JUST as hard as the boys)) though, and this isn't sexism, this is biology: Women aren't... well. Best way to put it, Combat is intense, high stress combat, requiring physical attributes that women by and large don't have. Those that do? Sure, I actually think women make better snipers, generally, and there's some proof to the view they make better combat pilots.)
    8 years 6 days ago #11 by elrodw
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    • I was writing a long screed about the 'snowflake' culture and the 'me first' mentality that is so pervasive, but then I stopped myself before I had a 14-page lecture. Suffice to say that I'm not in the least bit surprised. When I was in the Army (cannon-cocker, gun-bunny) in the 70's, there were few women in our units, and it was known that the warrior ethos that was instilled in boot and advanced training instilled alpha-male qualities. It had to in order to make an effective fighting force. Adding women to a group of alpha males is simply asking for trouble. Now some will call my opinions old-fashioned and I'll even be ranted at as a homophobe (this about the author whose primary character is LGBT, and who has many, many T characters!). Such is not the case. I'm in favor of making sure we don't dilute the fighting ability of the military through social experimentation. That's not the military's job. Small unit experimentation? Sure. But measure the results objectively and fairly. Don't make a total change without collecting data first. Now did these guys do wrong? Absolutely. Tailhook? Absolutely wrong. But should it have been unexpected? Not by anyone who was using common sense.

    That's my biggest beef. It's not just LGBT issues (to which I am sympathetic, in case you hadn't figured out from my characters); the nurse who worked in close proximity to Ebola and then fought (and WON!!!) release from quarantine because it hurt her feelings - that pissed me off. Her selfishness could have endangered the lives of thousands. All because the precious snowflake was entitled.

    Time to take some BP medication - every time the topic comes up of "wah - we want to be validated by being part of XXX", i get pissed. The snowflakes forget that one price of our social compact is that you don't get everything you want if your desires threaten others. Suck it up and deal with that fact. If anyone can be 'validated' by doing anything they want, society WILL break down. If you put lots of women in alpha-male units (and direct combat arms HAVE to be alpha mentality), then don't be surprised when shit like this happens.

    Rant off. Going to take BP meds.
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    8 years 6 days ago #12 by null0trooper
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    • What this former tincan-driver and son of a Marine got from the article is that the group is asking for males running around in a USMC uniform to be Marines.
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    8 years 5 days ago - 8 years 5 days ago #13 by Phoenix Spiritus
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    • Got to say, I'm with the Australian Head of Army here (not surprising, the Australian Defence Force has all roles open to women, some roles just have minimum fitness levels that must be passed, male or female, to join. Australia even has the accomodation on our submarines being cohabitation by both sexes).

    And his point is this, by all means be the best you can be. Be the strongest, the fittest, the number one, but there is absolutely no reason to be demeaning to women in doing that! And if that is your thing, well the world has grown up. We don't need you in our Military and you are a hinderance to its running. You will be weeded out and you will be thrown out along with whoever shields you.

    And his point is that the Australian military needs it numerous women members way more then it needs the few fucktards who can't behave in polite company. The fucktards are replaceable, the women are not.
    Last Edit: 8 years 5 days ago by Phoenix Spiritus.
    8 years 5 days ago #14 by JG
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    • I think the core issue here is the women of the Marine corps are wanting the directed asstick behavior that technically falls under Conduct Unbecoming a United States Marine that is directed at them daily to stop.

    They aren't asking the USMC to be kinder and gentler to them, but that extracurricular shit like sharing up pics their boyfriends passed out on facebook from naked pic while they were out cold one morning (which can get them ejected from the corps) and ass-grabbing stupidity stop.

    They wear the uniform, they are demanding the dignity that the men enjoy wearing said uniform.
    8 years 5 days ago #15 by Kettlekorn
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    • @Elrod: I disagree with your apparent stance that this is an inherent consequence of the mentality required to be a soldier. I haven't been in the military, so I could be missing something, but this looks more like sloppy training to me. Recruits show up with all sorts of undesirable traits that get burned out of them as they're forged into soldiers. This is just one that was skipped over because historically the folks in charge didn't consider it important.
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    8 years 5 days ago - 8 years 5 days ago #16 by Malady
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    • ^ - More actually the "warrior ethos" and "alpha male"... To prove him wrong, you'd have to effectively counter at least some part of this, if I'm summarizing right:

    elrodw wrote: it was known that the warrior ethos that was instilled in boot and advanced training instilled alpha-male qualities. It had to in order to make an effective fighting force. Adding women to a group of alpha males is simply asking for trouble.

    [...]

    If you put lots of women in alpha-male units (and direct combat arms HAVE to be alpha mentality), then don't be surprised when shit like this happens.

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    Last Edit: 8 years 5 days ago by Malady.
    8 years 5 days ago #17 by elrodw
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    • Good warriors can take the lead if needed, if all the NCOs and officers are down. That's the way the US forces used to train - probably still do, but that mentality requires certain attitudes that are common to alpha males. Take charge, get it done.

    Some will say I victim blame, which is not my intent - anyone who shares a compromising picture without permission is a festering pile of slime, and deserves to have his balls nailed to a door. (unless it's a girl, then figure out some other punishment). BUT - by taking and sending racy pictures, the 'victim' is an accomplice to the act. If there were no pictures, there would be no possibility of compromising, embarrassing data. In my day, we would have NEVER done such a thing because there were certain personal boundaries, and it was understood that if you gave something compromising to someone, you can't control what happens to it. Now, though, the sense of personal boundaries and privacy seem out the bloody window - but there are still those who insist that no matter what the 'victim' does, all the blame goes to the one posting the pics. It's like - if I park a fancy sports car in the Third Ward (substitute your locale's own seedy neighborhood), and it gets stolen, stripped, or trashed, the perp is guilty, but I contributed to the situation. I could have avoided it by not parking there. Likewise, girls who send racy, lewd, and other tantalizing pictures to their BFs or SOs have given someone else control of what happens to the pics.

    Common sense is all I seek. Guys who do that? Punish them to the full extent. But the girls who send the pics contributed to the situation. No pics, no humiliation.
    Never give up, Never surrender! Captain Peter Quincy Taggert
    8 years 5 days ago #18 by JG
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    • There's a point where trust was violated. But that's hardly the only situation.

    The point is that doing shit like that while wearing my uniform is as disgraceful as the person who cries that standards need to be lowered because it's too hard while wearing my uniform. Alpha male, competitive behavior is something women in the Corps can participate in, and do well.

    But the tactics being abused against the women in uniform is dependent upon utilizing stereotypes, behaviors and expectations designed to shame and humiliate women "into their proper place."

    Those are the things I object to being done wearing my uniform.

    If you wither and shrink because the gunny yelled too loud when you fucked up, get the fuck outta my Corps.
    8 years 5 days ago #19 by Kristin Darken
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    • elrodw wrote: Common sense is all I seek. Guys who do that? Punish them to the full extent. But the girls who send the pics contributed to the situation. No pics, no humiliation.


    No... sorry, El, but the term for that is slut shaming and its bullshit. It implies that adult women have no right to pursue their sexuality in their own fashion without being ashamed for having done so or for someone who discovers it using it against them in their professional life/career. You remember all those times the guys from the company/division/unit/ship went down to Tijuana or Pattaya Beach Thailand, or Bangkok or the Philippines and got their ashes hauled? Drank until they did stupid and ridiculously embarrassing things? Did it hurt your career? Did old stories about those times come back around to haunt you?

    Now compare THOSE things with taking a racy picture for someone. Assuming the pic was taken with your approval at all and not just snapped by someone else while you were half asleep, in the shower, or something similar.

    These women, in theory, have nothing to be ashamed of. It is MALE immaturity that makes those nude pictures something to be embarrassed about. Not because a women thought showing herself in a vulnerable position or in revealing clothing is 'taboo' but because MEN are unable to see a picture like that and recognize that the sexual nature of the woman in it is only one side of her. And that she is just as capable of being a strong, professional woman in the workplace... or a reliable soldier on the battlefield... just as easily as being that sexy woman in the photo.

    If MEN were capable of understanding that, and acknowledging the soldier or professional when the woman is acting in that capacity; there would be no need for the issue to be pursued. Pics to be returned, etc. But men prove over and over of only being able to think with their dicks and once a woman does anything other than act like a frigid bitch in the work place, there's only two directions they can go... the ones I listed above... because that woman (in their mind) has either become their little sister who doesn't know better and needs to be protected or a potential fuck toy.

    And that's technically misogyny. There are plenty of TG people who suffer from it... just look at all the stories about men transformed into women AS PUNISHMENT for things they did. The base nature of such stories requires you to accept that being a woman is worse than being male. Sure, some of them are just stories written to explore the idea... but read them and tell me the writer doesn't see being a woman as less than being a man. Which asks the question... if you consider being a woman a punishment but want to be one... why? My guess is that it ties into the whole "I'm wrong, I'm broken, I'm a mistake" mentality that being TG forces us into if we aren't careful. But that's getting away from the point of this issue. Which is that its actually wrong to to think that these women are complicate as a result of having taken racy pictures... because male servicemen do far more lewd and sexual things in their offduty time than that, and in many ways such things are not only either ignored by the brass... but actually supported by (you think they accidentally pick ports like Pattaya Beach Thailand for Navy liberty ports?) And it doesn't hurt THEIR careers. Why then should we judge these women for something that has nothing to do with their ability to serve?
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    8 years 5 days ago #20 by Kristin Darken
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    • Btw, that's NOT my 'instinctive' answer... that's my response after the outcome of several years of discussing feminist and TG issues with some really good friends who are, yes, female but also very very smart people. There's a LOT of things to think about considering the way I was raised (very conservatively in rural western PA) and with my choices on how to deal with my gender identity and so on... the alligators are stacked very very deep. Some things that I've consciously abandoned for years STILL influence my choices today and a lot of the time when I realize it, it pisses me off. You'd think it would be easier to walk away from thinking about some things a certain way... but its not.
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    8 years 5 days ago #21 by E. E. Nalley
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    • Yeah, no sorry Kristen actions have consequences. I don't know what service you were in, but in the Army I knew where every brothel in town was because they were all masquerading as massage parlors and their addresses and PHOTOGRAPHS of the buildings were posted in the barracks under a great big sign that read:

    THESE PREMISES ARE OFF LIMITS TO ALL PERSONNEL and any member found in violation of this order shall face charges under Article 13 of the UCMJ facing imprisonment, loss of pay, rank and privileges as well as dishonorable discharge.

    Somebody photographing someone without their knowledge or consent, ya, those are a big no-no and you can and should face civil lawsuit and possible criminal charges. But some girl gets bit in the ass because she was attention whoring with slutty selfies? I got no compassion for that, same way I have no compassion for what's happened to Tony Wiener and his traveling road show.

    Actions have and SHOULD have consequences. Nobody is saying any woman can't take every tarted up pic she wants, but if she doesn't want them coming back to bite her in the ass later in life she better keep control of them.
    I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.
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    8 years 5 days ago - 8 years 5 days ago #22 by elrodw
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    • If I talk about racial issues with a vast group of neo-Nazis, that's not a fair or representative sample of people. Feminists and TGs are not a representative sample of the population, especially given the somewhat radical nature of some feminists.

    I was NOT saying or implying that the women should be ashamed of their bodies. Don't take my comments beyond what they said. I was only stating that in this age of social media and near-instantaneous communication, plus the permanence of something on the web, sharing racy pictures with someone can and sometimes does result in getting those pictures posted places one does not want. Think before you act. Was it wrong of the person who posted? Hell yes, I agree to that. Should they be punished? Yes, to the full extent of the law. But if you send racy pictures to anyone (whether male or female) you ARE taking a chance that they will get out of your control and be seen by a LOT of people you don't want to see them. Your action resulted in your vulnerability. Not victim-blaming, not slut-shaming. If you send those pictures to people you wouldn't trust with your life, you are taking a chance, period and stop.

    It's called accepting responsibility for YOUR actions.

    And that's all I'm going to say so this doesn't degenerate into a flame war.
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    Last Edit: 8 years 5 days ago by elrodw.
    8 years 5 days ago - 8 years 5 days ago #23 by Arcanist Lupus
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    • From the NPR story:

    For me, it really came to a head back in I want to say around May of 2016 where a Facebook group similar to Marines United took a picture from my personal Instagram page that was a photo of me and seven other female marine field grade officers as we were at lunch in our uniforms and took this picture, posted it to the page.

    And I watched in real time as hundreds of people commented on this photo and said things like, you know - they wanted to rape us. They immediately reduced us to our sexuality, as to whether we were doable, not doable, every amount of vitriol. We were called the worst names. And I mean these were leaders in the Marine Corps. I guess for myself, I was less upset because I've dealt with stuff like this before, but these seven other women who I highly respect and admire who have deployed multiple times, gone to combat, are Marines just like everybody else were being demeaned in this way.

    emphasis mine.

    Regardless of the validity of Elrod's points, I can't help but feel that they are to a certain extent irrelevant. To use a metaphor, pouring salt on an open wound is certainly a bad idea. But removing the salt is not going to help the wound heal. And wounds do not need salt to be painful.


    Oh, and I would like to thank everyone who's posted here. It's a touchy subject, but everyone has been reasonably civil and I've found it to be very informative.
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    Last Edit: 8 years 5 days ago by Arcanist Lupus.
    8 years 5 days ago #24 by Valentine
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    • Taking pictures of yourself is fine.
    Taking racy/nudie/whatever pictures of yourself is fine.
    Sharing those pictures with your S/O is fine.
    Sharing those pictures via electronic media, whether it's the internet, phone, or whatever is just plain stupid. They will get out, they will be shared, and they aren't going away.

    No to be clear. I put most of the blame on the sharers, but that initial person that sent the pics deserves some of the blame too.
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    8 years 5 days ago #25 by jennysass
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    • Arcanist Lupus wrote: From the NPR story:

    For me, it really came to a head back in I want to say around May of 2016 where a Facebook group similar to Marines United took a picture from my personal Instagram page that was a photo of me and seven other female marine field grade officers as we were at lunch in our uniforms and took this picture, posted it to the page.

    And I watched in real time as hundreds of people commented on this photo and said things like, you know - they wanted to rape us. They immediately reduced us to our sexuality, as to whether we were doable, not doable, every amount of vitriol. We were called the worst names. And I mean these were leaders in the Marine Corps. I guess for myself, I was less upset because I've dealt with stuff like this before, but these seven other women who I highly respect and admire who have deployed multiple times, gone to combat, are Marines just like everybody else were being demeaned in this way.

    emphasis mine.

    Regardless of the validity of Elrod's points, I can't help but feel that they are to a certain extent irrelevant. To use a metaphor, pouring salt on an open wound is certainly a bad idea. But removing the salt is not going to help the wound heal. And wounds do not need salt to be painful.


    Oh, and I would like to thank everyone who's posted here. It's a touchy subject, but everyone has been reasonably civil and I've found it to be very informative


    The commentary and general attitude that women are mostly there to be cock-sleeves is what I deal with every day on the sub. It's an all male environment, and brings out and then encourages the worst attitudes in men. That mentality goes up and down the chain of command- every year I have to sit through the same SAPR training told as though it was a big joke, and then go back to working with the guy who admitted that he rapes his wife during the training.

    I put the blame for this on that kind of toxic group think that results when you've got a bunch of insecure kids playing at being men and not caring about how bad they get.
    8 years 5 days ago - 8 years 5 days ago #26 by Kristin Darken
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    • E. E. Nalley wrote: Yeah, no sorry Kristen actions have consequences. I don't know what service you were in, but in the Army I knew where every brothel in town was because they were all masquerading as massage parlors and their addresses and PHOTOGRAPHS of the buildings were posted in the barracks under a great big sign that read:


    I was in the Navy, E. E. Sure, there were warnings about things not to do when stationed in a stateside position... but given the general attitude about foreign/liberty ports, the hypocrisy level was... pretty high. I think more of the warnings stateside were about common scams that let civilians take advantage of you... the massage parlor offering things that are illegal and getting you on recording to force you to pay to keep them quiet. Women who would marry a sailor to take advantage of their stateside direct deposit and housing allowance, etc... and then disappear with everything while you were deployed and unable to report problems (or even know there was one). Landlords who would accuse sailors of breaking all sorts of things to force them to pay damages (on larger ships, officers don't even bother finding if this sort of thing is true, they just make the sailor pay for it to avoid local scandal/anti-Navy backlash). All sorts of things... but if someone posted something like that shipboard? Someone else would post a thank you to the noncoms for letting them know how to find those places.

    More importantly though, E.E. ... I don't disagree with you that actions should have consequences. But my point is they should be the SAME consequences. The things that happened here would NOT have happened to male marines. The attitudes toward such pictures would be different, the attitude regarding the consequences would be different. And that's wherein the problem lies.
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    Last Edit: 8 years 5 days ago by Kristin Darken.
    8 years 5 days ago - 8 years 5 days ago #27 by Kettlekorn
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    • Malady wrote: ^ - More actually the "warrior ethos" and "alpha male"... To prove him wrong, you'd have to effectively counter at least some part of this, if I'm summarizing right:

    Yes, soldiers need aggression, and aggression predictably leads to behaviors such as sexual harassment. It also leads to a whole host of other similarly undesirable behaviors, most of which the military actively works to train out of their soldiers so that they can actually be soldiers instead of frothing animals. So, what I'm saying is that sexual harassment is just another one of those undesirable behaviors that needs to be stamped out, just as soldiers are trained not to throw each other under the bus for personal gain, battle their commanding officer for dominance, etc. (Or so I presume. They'd likely disintegrate into roving brands of brigands otherwise.)

    I do agree with Elrod in regards to testing things, personal responsibility, etc. I also agree with Kristin about double standards. They're both right. Taking naked pictures of yourself (or sleeping with people you don't know well enough to know whether they can be trusted) is stupid and reckless. At the same time, it shouldn't actually be a big deal in the first place, and men whose sex lives are exposed generally get treated a lot better than women do in the same situation.
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    Last Edit: 8 years 5 days ago by Kettlekorn.
    8 years 5 days ago #28 by E. E. Nalley
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    • Kristin Darken wrote:
    More importantly though, E.E. ... I don't disagree with you that actions should have consequences. But my point is they should be the SAME consequences. The things that happened here would NOT have happened to male marines. The attitudes toward such pictures would be different, the attitude regarding the consequences would be different. And that's wherein the problem lies.


    That's absolutely fair and if I was over the top in my snark in my reply my apologies. I feel very strongly that equal under the law is just that, nobody should get a pass. Perhaps the Army just needs higher discipline for our job, after all we do our killing face to face not over the horizon, or just I had a better caliber of commanding officers than you (Pardon the military joke) but no I was absolutely certain anybody getting caught at one of those places was flushing their career down the toilet. If the Marines are that out of control, well, to be honest we in the Army have always kind of looked upon Uncle Sam's Misguided Children as well, spoiled kids.

    To be fair I have met some DAMN fine Marines in my day, but sadly they were pretty outnumbered. As we used to say the Marines keep ALL their traditions, even the bad ones.

    That said, yes, I agree with you, the rules have to apply to everybody. When I was in, Gulf War One, the females were the ones who bitched the most about lowering the standards. They were justifiably proud of their accomplishments, were extremely resentful that those accomplishments were being cheapened and there were a number I would have gladly gone into the bad place with.

    (And no, they were NOT man hating dykes as I was fortunate enough to have one prove to me. :evil: )
    I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.
    Thomas Jefferson, to Archibald Stuart, 1791
    8 years 4 days ago #29 by null0trooper
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    • Kristin Darken wrote: More importantly though, E.E. ... I don't disagree with you that actions should have consequences. But my point is they should be the SAME consequences. The things that happened here would NOT have happened to male marines. The attitudes toward such pictures would be different, the attitude regarding the consequences would be different. And that's wherein the problem lies.


    Until recently, male marines photographed in the nude or other compromising positions would be on a fast track to a Big Chicken Dinner once the pictures started circulating. married or not. However, given some of the comments above excluding gay, bisexual, and FtM men from "MALE", I do have trouble seeing that equal treatment is entirely the issue.
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