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Question Cultural Appropriation

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9 years 1 month ago #1 by konzill

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In light of how much flack J. K. Rowling has gotten over putting her own spin on Native American Mythology, lets hope the same people never stumble on Whateley. Something tells me the people critisizing Rowling might take issue with Kayda.

Personally I think its all an over-reaction. Reinterpreting mythology is something every Urban Fantasy author does. And Urban Fantasy set in North America regularly takes elements of Native American myths and puts their own completly different spin on them. Rowling simply has the misfortune of being the largest Target.

9 years 1 month ago - 9 years 1 month ago #2 by E. E. Nalley

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*Public service announcer voice*
The following rant is directed solely anyone whose nose gets out of joint over things like cultural appropriation. It is in no way intended at the original poster nor in any way to any other member of this forum and community in good standing. Warning: salty language ahead, those with high blood pressure or heart conditions should avoid reading further.
*/Public service announcer voice*

There are not enough F bombs in the entire Arsenal of Freedom to measure the gross megaton-age of flying fornication's that I do not give over non-issues like cultural appropriation. And to anybody who in any way is contemplating annoying the finger of one of the authors with that claptrap I'm here to say I will unleash thermonuclear amounts of ban hammer right on the top of their pointed precious snowflake social justice warring head. Hammers will be dropped, indiscriminate justice distributed and hell unleashed.

Do it! Add one tittle or jot of frustration to Elrod and see what happens to you! Go on! I dare you! I double dare you, you limp noodle, oxygen thieving wastes of human skin!

And you will know I am the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee!

:evil:

I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.
Thomas Jefferson, to Archibald Stuart, 1791

Last Edit: 9 years 1 month ago by E. E. Nalley.

9 years 1 month ago - 9 years 1 month ago #3 by elrodw

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E. E. Nalley wrote: *Public service announcer voice*
The following rant is directed solely anyone whose nose gets out of joint over things like cultural appropriation. It is in no way intended at the original poster nor in any way to any other member of this forum and community in good standing. Warning: salty language ahead, those with high blood pressure or heart conditions should avoid reading further.
*/Public service announcer voice*

There are not enough F bombs in the entire Arsenal of Freedom to measure the gross megaton-age of flying fornication's that I do not give over non-issues like cultural appropriation. And to anybody who in any way is contemplating annoying the finger of one of the authors with that claptrap I'm here to say I will unleash thermonuclear amounts of ban hammer right on the top of their pointed precious snowflake social justice warring head. Hammers will be dropped, indiscriminate justice distributed and hell unleashed.

Do it! Add one tittle or jot of frustration to Elrod and see what happens to you! Go on! I dare you! I double dare you, you limp noodle, oxygen thieving wastes of human skin!

And you will know I am the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee!

Now EE, tell us how you REALLY feel

As to cultural appropriation, I will be the first to admit that there are probably some errors, but in toto, I have done a LOT of research into Lakota traditions, lore, and culture to get it right. I have a consultant on the entire Lakota view of Two Spirits, and spent a lot of time doing SCHOLARLY research on warrior societies and such.

So if you go all ape-shit on a mistake, my response will be "let's see you get it better in toto and produce a story that's readable and logical (followed by some unutterable -for now - speculations about breeding and social habits)."

I try very hard to stay true to Lakota culture and religion. 'Nuff said.

But I appreciate my brother EE's willingness to go medieval if someone gives me grief. Know that I will do the same if someone gives him excess heartburn, too.

Never give up, Never surrender! Captain Peter Quincy Taggert

Last Edit: 9 years 1 month ago by elrodw.

9 years 1 month ago #4 by Dreamer

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That is the one thing I like the most out of the Kayda stories. All the depth of detail you give due to the amount of research put in to the subject matter, elrod. I've learned things I never knew before and that is always enjoyable.

It even got me to look up some stuff on my own to learn more about the Lakota culture, etc.

Thank You for story comments appreciated and help me know me they are being read and liked.

Note: My story comments can't nor are trying to replace reading the stories, simply my way of enjoying them and letting the authors know I enjoy them.

9 years 1 month ago - 9 years 1 month ago #5 by konzill

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elrodw wrote: I have done a LOT of research into Lakota traditions, lore, and culture to get it right. I have a consultant on the entire Lakota view of Two Spirits, and spent a lot of time doing SCHOLARLY research on warrior societies and such.

Cool I didn't know that. Makes it all that much more interesting. That said there are some members of the politically correct crowd who would not let facts stand in the way of their preferred narrative.

Here In Australai we had a big todo a few years back becasue a white female celbraty attempted to play a didgeridoo on TV. Apperently in some Australian Aboritinal tribes, the didgeridoo is seen as an exclusivly male instrument. The fact that this isn't true in all Australian Aboriginal tribe didn't seem to defuse the situation at all. Some people simply go out of their way to find something to be ofended about. On Kayda's stories I suspect that SJW would latch onto the sex scene in the sweat lodge as something to be offended by.

Last Edit: 9 years 1 month ago by konzill.

9 years 1 month ago #6 by Malady

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elrodw wrote: As to cultural appropriation, I will be the first to admit that there are probably some errors, but in toto, I have done a LOT of research into Lakota traditions, lore, and culture to get it right. I have a consultant on the entire Lakota view of Two Spirits, and spent a lot of time doing SCHOLARLY research on warrior societies and such.

Can we get a few of your sources if we want to do our own research?

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9 years 1 month ago - 9 years 1 month ago #7 by Domoviye

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Cultural appropriation haters should never use a computer. The concept of 0 came from India, Modern numerals came from the Middle East. The first real computer, ENIAC was designed by the American army. If they use energy that was produced by fossil fuels, that was first developed in Britain. If they use English to complain that was appropriated from Latin, French, Germanic and Celtic languages, plus a few dozen more. Paper, which they probably used to learn about some of their facts was invented by the Chinese. The original monitor used in computers was invened by a German. The modern ball point pen which is used by most people to make notes was invented by the Hungarian Jew Laszlo Biro.

So for a Cultural Appropriation Warrior to not be a hypocrite, he or she has to be Arabic, Indian, American, British, German, Celtic, French, Latin, Hungarian and Jewish. Otherwise they're appropriated from a wide variety of cultures and should hang their heads in shame and disgust in their safe space because of their horrible micro-aggression.

Please don't make me get into fonts, soldering, electronics, plastic and more, that would take all night.

And since I'm Metis, I'm going to go wear some leather and fur, kill a moose and have a feast. Who wants to join me?

Last Edit: 9 years 1 month ago by Domoviye.

9 years 1 month ago #8 by NeoMagus

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Domoviye wrote: And since I'm Metis, I'm going to go wear some leather and fur, kill a moose and have a feast. Who wants to join me?

That actually sounds like a lot of fun. Where do I sign up?

... . . -.- / .--- ..- ... - .. -.-. . .-.-.- / .-.. --- ...- . / -- . .-. -.-. -.-- .-.-.- / .-- .- .-.. -.- / .... ..- -- -... .-.. -.-- / .-- .. - .... / -.-- --- ..- .-. / --. --- -.. .-.-.-

9 years 1 month ago - 9 years 1 month ago #9 by konzill

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Domoviye wrote: And since I'm Metis, I'm going to go wear some leather and fur, kill a moose and have a feast. Who wants to join me?

Have you already booked at spot in the Sims? I hear getting a slot can be quite hard.

Last Edit: 9 years 1 month ago by konzill.

9 years 1 month ago - 9 years 1 month ago #10 by Domoviye

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konzill wrote:
Domoviye wrote: And since I'm Metis, I'm going to go wear some leather and fur, kill a moose and have a feast. Who wants to join me?

Have you already booked at spot in the Sims? I hear getting a slot can be quite hard.

I live in Northern Canada, I just go into my backyard to hunt moose.

Last Edit: 9 years 1 month ago by Domoviye.

9 years 1 month ago #11 by mhalpern

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Domoviye wrote: Cultural appropriation haters should never use a computer. The concept of 0 came from India, Modern numerals came from the Middle East. The first real computer, ENIAC was designed by the American army. If they use energy that was produced by fossil fuels, that was first developed in Britain. If they use English to complain that was appropriated from Latin, French, Germanic and Celtic languages, plus a few dozen more. Paper, which they probably used to learn about some of their facts was invented by the Chinese. The original monitor used in computers was invened by a German. The modern ball point pen which is used by most people to make notes was invented by the Hungarian Jew Laszlo Biro.

So for a Cultural Appropriation Warrior to not be a hypocrite, he or she has to be Arabic, Indian, American, British, German, Celtic, French, Latin, Hungarian and Jewish. Otherwise they're appropriated from a wide variety of cultures and should hang their heads in shame and disgust in their safe space because of their horrible micro-aggression.

Please don't make me get into fonts, soldering, electronics, plastic and more, that would take all night.

And since I'm Metis, I'm going to go wear some leather and fur, kill a moose and have a feast. Who wants to join me?

Not to mention, Superman was created by 2 Canadian Jews

Any Bad Ideas I have and microscene OC character stories are freely adoptable.

9 years 1 month ago - 8 years 11 months ago #12 by Light

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...

Last Edit: 8 years 11 months ago by Light.

9 years 1 month ago - 9 years 1 month ago #13 by konzill

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Light wrote: To use an example people on this board would probably get behind, if someone started putting transgendered characters into their stories, but woefully misrepresented what gender dysphoria is like, or worse, treated them as the traditional 'trannie' mockery, we'd all be up in arms about that.

I think you are comparing apples and oranges here. If the story had protrayed Native Americans in a hackneyed and sterotypical way, then yes that would be bad, and would be rightly condemned. But we are not talking about her portrayal of people, but about her portrayal of a mythical creature. And that does make it sufficently different that a direct comparison is problamatic.

Last Edit: 9 years 1 month ago by konzill.

9 years 1 month ago - 8 years 11 months ago #14 by Light

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Last Edit: 8 years 11 months ago by Light.

9 years 1 month ago #15 by Kristin Darken

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I agree with Light here. Don't get me wrong and think I'm saying it is ok to attack an author over cultural misappropriation in stories... but this is something that is more complicated than it sounds at first gasp. I've been protested... not me personally, but a theatre that I worked at... over the presentation and inaccuracy of native american traditions and stories. And from a limited perspective, it was understandable. An actor (who was not native american) was portraying a Lakota cultural icon and speaking words that painted a very different picture of his actions, those of his tribe, and the American soldiers who they fought. The playwright was clear in his statements that "this is not a documentary, it is just set using these two characters - Crazy Horse and Custer - because of the dynamic between them and the potential to tell a story that it provided."

But people don't understand that. And they don't realize that having a physical Crazy Horse on stage speaking words that are not true and are contradictory to Lakota oral tradition... is religious blasphemy to the Lakota. The truth of the situation is... that the playwright didn't understand the culture that he was using as the basis of his story. It didn't matter that he claimed it was fiction because the basic idea of calling Crazy Horse's spirit back to speak to people about Custer is all sorts of wrong.

And yes, there are transgender activists who get upset about the way TG are portrayed in the movies and television. There are autism spectrum activists who are making a big deal over the portrayal of people on the spectrum in film/tv and stage. In some cases, there's some personal jealousy at the base... a TG (or African American, or Latin) actor wants the roles of TG, African American, or Latin characters to be case by people who are really that thing... instead of given to a white actor who acts their affliction of being on the spectrum. More importantly though, are the protests that when we do this, it perpetuates misunderstandings of a thing. It supports the generation and sustained existence of stereotypes.

Unfortunately, in protesting and restricting the exploration across cultural boundaries, we also are essentially building walls. To use the autism activism, for example... people forget that while a trained actor who is NOT on the spectrum may not be able to perfectly understand what it is like to be on it... neither can someone who IS on the spectrum able to perfectly understand what it is like to be one of the people in the audience who has never experienced those troubles. It is the actor's job to convey the message in the script to that audience. If the audience cannot relate, it won't matter how accurate the presentation of the autism itself is.

That doesn't excuse artists... actors, playwrights... WU fiction authors... from doing the research. Cultural appropriate is, indeed, a negative thing... but cross-culture exploration and exposure? That is not. And, in fact, it's really the only way for two cultures to learn about each other and understand each other... which leads to better interactions and support of each other. As opposed to building walls in which our cultures no longer mix, adapt, or grow.

Fate guard you and grant you a Light to brighten your Way.

9 years 1 month ago #16 by mittfh

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Personally, I don't think there should be any kind of ban on people from one culture using elements of another culture in various contexts.

If they're doing so in such a manner as to create or perpetuate negative stereotypes, then by all means call them out (the classic US example being the portrayal of Native Americans in a considerable portion of Wild West fiction - uncivilised savages, to put it mildly; perhaps for the online TG community a significant proportion of "literature" on FictionMania, judging by the category selection...)

However, if they're at least attempting to make a decent stab at understanding the context / meaning of the cultural elements they're using, presenting them in a neutral to favourable light, and attempting to avoid some of the most unhelpful stereotypes, then support them (and if they're getting it wrong, respectfully draw their attention to some of the most egregarious errors [but not necessarily all of them - if they're trying to be respectful you don't want to discourage them with a huge infodump of Exactly How They've Got It All Wrong!])

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9 years 1 month ago #17 by Domoviye

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I've seen too many stories of social justice warriors on campus recently trying to find fault with everything from sushi to party hats.
IF the person has a good point and well reasoned argument I'll politely discuss it. If it's out of white guilt well then I get to have some fun.

9 years 1 month ago #18 by Astrodragon

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This thing I find most annoying about this 'cultural appropriation', is the fact that its oh-so-terrible to use or copy anything considered to belong to one of the favoured cultures, yet its FINE for the members of said cultures to dress in clothes from a different culture (suits, jeans, t-shirts, etc).

So lets see them stop appropriating my culture, then, if we're going to be even-handed about it...

I love watching their innocent little faces smiling happily as they trip gaily down the garden path, before finding the pit with the rusty spikes.

9 years 1 month ago #19 by elrodw

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And perhaps we're getting into too much soapboxing about cultural appropriation, the perceptions of "favored" groups, SJWs, 'sins of the fathers,' and such - which is probably a bad thing for this forum.

Let's face it - cultural appropriation has been happening ever since Og's tribe of proto-humans notice that Grog's tribe of proto-humans was using animal femurs as clubs and decided to copy them. So people who get wound up about this shit need to really, really get a life. And we should perhaps avoid devolving into cultural politics lest we get too vocal and angry and fracture our nice little group. Just my thinking.

And if anyone wants, I'll see if I bookmarked my references on Lakota culture. I thought I knew a lot from having grown up around that culture, but I've found so much more... For example, to punish a young man for a crime, they might take his 'tools of the trade' as it were, his warrior gear, possibly including his horse. But once the punishment was over, the tribe would see to it that he had a horse, because he couldn't be a warrior without one. Two Spirits was a fascinating concept to learn more about. Warrior societies, likewise.

Never give up, Never surrender! Captain Peter Quincy Taggert

9 years 1 month ago - 9 years 1 month ago #20 by Malady

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elrodw wrote: And if anyone wants, I'll see if I bookmarked my references on Lakota culture. I thought I knew a lot from having grown up around that culture, but I've found so much more... For example, to punish a young man for a crime, they might take his 'tools of the trade' as it were, his warrior gear, possibly including his horse. But once the punishment was over, the tribe would see to it that he had a horse, because he couldn't be a warrior without one. Two Spirits was a fascinating concept to learn more about. Warrior societies, likewise.

Re-request 'cause first got lost in message flood.

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Last Edit: 9 years 1 month ago by Malady.

9 years 1 month ago #21 by elrodw

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It will take a bit to dig this up, but I'll try to get something posted this weekend - pruned; you probably don't want to see the refs to squirrel legends I used for The Zica Encounter!

Never give up, Never surrender! Captain Peter Quincy Taggert

9 years 1 month ago #22 by Domoviye

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Those legends can't be much worse than the original coyote legends.

9 years 1 month ago #23 by Malady

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Domoviye wrote: Those legends can't be much worse than the original coyote legends.

Explain?

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9 years 1 month ago #24 by E. E. Nalley

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Malady wrote:
Domoviye wrote: Those legends can't be much worse than the original coyote legends.

Explain?

Coyote is a bastard that views death as a learning experience and permanent disfiguring injury as the height of physical comedy.

I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.
Thomas Jefferson, to Archibald Stuart, 1791

9 years 1 month ago - 9 years 1 month ago #25 by Domoviye

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Some pre-Contact Coyote stories gave him aa 10 foot long you know what, that could move like a snake, he was very proud of it and liked using frequently.
The few stories I could find that mention that detail, would be perfect for hentai. At least until a group of bathing women asked Mother Mouse for help and she had some mice bite it off.

Last Edit: 9 years 1 month ago by Domoviye.

9 years 1 month ago #26 by Malady

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Domoviye wrote: Some pre-Contact Coyote stories gave him aa 10 foot long you know what, that could move like a snake and he was very proud of using frequently.
The few I could find that mention that detail, would be perfect for hentai. At least until some woman asked Mother Mouse for help and she had some mice bite it off.

... Where'd you find this stuff?

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9 years 1 month ago #27 by Domoviye

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Look for authentic legends online, generally websites designed by Indians that are trying to preserve their culture (a lot are upset that the stories were tamed or changed after Christians came along) or talk to some Indians.

9 years 1 month ago #28 by FuzzyBoots

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My experience with people getting angry over "cultural appropriation" was less about people misrepresenting said culture and more about people people outside that culture using it because it's "cool" or "hip", particularly if they have members of that culture there to tell them how cool and hip they are. Classic example is the number of white pop stars who have black backup dancers who emphasize just how amazing the white performer is as they do their hip-hop moves. Kind of an extension of the Mighty Whitey trope, but there are those who over-extend it to the point where they argue that only people from a particular culture should be allowed to use said moves.

And I do think that sometimes, there is the question of technique and culture. To use an example from one of my own hobbies, you don't have to have dark skin to do Capoeira, but you may not be getting that full experience without understanding that the reason for baptismal nicknames is to keep people from turning you over to the police, that the song played near the end of the roda is to signal that the police are coming so you need to break it up, etc. You can learn and teach the techniques, but some argue that it's the culture that's truly important, and that's a hard thing to teach.

Personally, I prefer to not ascribe to malice what can generally be ascribed to curiosity or interest.

9 years 1 month ago - 9 years 1 month ago #29 by Domoviye

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I can side with you up to a point. Unfoturnately, it's gone from saying "John Wayne as Gengis Khan!!! What were they thinking?!" or, "It's difficult to learn the nuances without the right upbringing" To "You have cornrows in your hair, you're evil!!!!"
I truly, truly wish I was exaggerating.

Last Edit: 9 years 1 month ago by Domoviye.

9 years 1 month ago - 8 years 11 months ago #30 by Light

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...

Last Edit: 8 years 11 months ago by Light.

9 years 1 month ago #31 by elrodw

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Light wrote:
Domoviye wrote: I can side with you up to a point. Unfoturnately, it's gone from saying "John Wayne as Gengis Khan!!! What were they thinking?!" or, "It's difficult to learn the nuances without the right upbringing" To "You have cornrows in your hair, you're evil!!!!"
I truly, truly wish I was exaggerating.

I agree that the current atmosphere on topics like this is kinda crazy. It can be really easy to become what you hate, though. It's not hard to imagine someone coming here, having a legitimate issue, and us all ganging up on them and harassing them just like the 'cornrows in your hair, you're evil' people would harass someone with cornrows. I've literally seen people do things like that on this forum all on the excuse that they're 'protecting the authors'. I saw this topic with similar bluster building when there wasn't even someone here with an issue and thought maybe it was time to see if I could convince people to dial this kind of reaction back a bit. Personally, I don't want to see every person with a dissenting opinion given the forum equivalent of getting beaten up and thrown out.

What I can respect is an honest, factual dialog. If someone tells me (and let's be honest - doing so privately is best first if you're being civil and not trying to do chest-thumping) of an honest mistake and cites evidence of that, fine - mea culpa. If someone starts ranting publicly without bothering to show references as to why they're right, then they're being loud-mouth snot-faced brats. Honest discourse is fine, but how rare it is these days to find such courteous, factual interchanges.

Although, to be honest here, at a technical conference once years and years ago, i thought my advisor and another PhD were going to engage in fisticuffs over which of their theories was the better one. It was hardly civil. Entertaining, but not civil.

Never give up, Never surrender! Captain Peter Quincy Taggert

9 years 1 month ago - 9 years 1 month ago #32 by E. E. Nalley

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Domoviye wrote: I can side with you up to a point. Unfoturnately, it's gone from saying "John Wayne as Gengis Khan!!! What were they thinking?!"

What are you saying? The Duke was a talented thespian! You never saw his MacBeth?

Is...this...a...dagger...I...see...before...me...wauha?
Well, I'm not gonna kill you, King Duncan! I'm not gonna kill ya! Like hell I'm not!

I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.
Thomas Jefferson, to Archibald Stuart, 1791

Last Edit: 9 years 1 month ago by E. E. Nalley.

9 years 1 month ago #33 by Domoviye

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The Duke was a good actor in Westerns and similar movies. He was a cool guy, maybe even awesome. However a thespian or Shakesperian type actor he was not.

9 years 1 month ago #34 by Valentine

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Domoviye wrote: The Duke was a good actor in Westerns and similar movies. He was a cool guy, maybe even awesome. However a thespian or Shakesperian type actor he was not.

John Wayne did a brilliant representation of Ghengis Khan, or maybe that was just glow of the radioactive dust.

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9 years 1 month ago #35 by elrodw

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I liked The Duke in Hatari.

Right now, with other issues having distracted me, my brain is stuck on trying to imagine the Duke giving the King Henry V St. Crispin's Day speech.....

Never give up, Never surrender! Captain Peter Quincy Taggert

9 years 1 month ago #36 by Astrodragon

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elrodw wrote: I liked The Duke in Hatari.

Right now, with other issues having distracted me, my brain is stuck on trying to imagine the Duke giving the King Henry V St. Crispin's Day speech.....

That dripping noise you hear is your brain trickling out of your ears...

I love watching their innocent little faces smiling happily as they trip gaily down the garden path, before finding the pit with the rusty spikes.

9 years 1 month ago #37 by E. E. Nalley

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elrodw wrote: I liked The Duke in Hatari.

Right now, with other issues having distracted me, my brain is stuck on trying to imagine the Duke giving the King Henry V St. Crispin's Day speech.....

Challenge accepted!

WESTMORELAND. O that we now had here
But one ten thousand of those men in England
That do no work to-day!

HENRY: Who's that bellyaching?
My cousin, Westmoreland? Well saddle up!
Anybody looking the dance with the Grim Reaper
will find a way to get his name on that dance card!
We've got enough boys to do what needs doing!
The boys with me I don't even need one more
you pass it around, anybody didn't have the sand for what's coming
you tell him to pack his kit and skedaddle
got enough to worry about without having to think about
having a yellow belly watching your back!
The rest of you boys saddle up and come with me
there's work to do!

I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.
Thomas Jefferson, to Archibald Stuart, 1791

9 years 1 month ago #38 by elrodw

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Bravo, good sir, bravo!

Never give up, Never surrender! Captain Peter Quincy Taggert

9 years 1 month ago #39 by E M Pisek

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If you wish to discuss cultural changes also look at the Brothers Grimms and the original stories as well as other classical literature such as Hans Christian Anderson and so forth. Look at the unabridged versions as these stories were meant as learning tools to frighten the young.

Many blame Disney for 'Disnysizing' them but the works of Shakespeare as well as others were butchered by both playwrights and movies long before then.

I'm not one to dish on what actor, gender or race plays what character in a movie. But it is our own cultures that are moving us away from true facts all for the making of a buck. No longer does and industry want to make a movies from back in the day 'unless' it can be shown to make a profit. Of course there are many movies that were made that failed for other reasons and I won't get into that, but there is another group taking over from Hollywood and that we know is the indies. Why? Because they, in my opinion, are trying to keep real movie making alive.

But even that is being invaded as those that are being bankrolled are finding their choice of storytelling to be 'limited'. Also how many of those movies that are supposed to be based on fact really are? When you look deeper into them you find that writers, directors and so forth, 'sensationalized' parts or created parts that never were the for the sake of making it more 'entertaining.'

Now before you say I'm deviating from this realize that many writers 'don't' research much of the background deeply. We have or are becoming a world of 'googlers' who are 'told' to just google it and we are then lead to believe that what we read is true. They are being taught to move quickly to write a story, to barely check the facts and when found, are critized for such sloppy work only to have those that are doing the mud slinging to be just as in fault.

As we move further and further away from our past, those that used to pass down the 'true' stories are leaving us and none are taking up the mantle to keep the stories alive and true. Another problem is that many 'want' to forget their past for its to horrendous or cringe worthy in wanting to bear remembering. Its best that we strike it from our vocabulary else we keep it alive. Only there are those that will then take a portion of it and rework it into a 'new' meaning of either hatred, love or dispair.

I shudder at what our nation and even our world will be like in a 100 years as kids are brought in with newer technology in learning. I'm not even talking about predictions and so forth for none thought of Goggle, the internet and so for in the way that it is perceived now.have advanced in ways and will people even bother to read on their own, learn on their own or will they be like Issac Asimov's Foundations series where people isolate themselves from one another only to communicate behind barriers that are erected to protect themselves from one another.

Of course humans have been known to change course and in ways and thinking. So we shall see.

What is - was. What was - is.

9 years 1 month ago #40 by Ametros

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Cultural appropriation, like a tool, can be handled well or poorly. By itself it is not inherently bad. Speaking as an outsider with very little knowledge of Native Americans nor the Lakota in particular, I'm not expert. But what I can say is that to me, the amount of care and understanding Elrod took with the source material was evident in his writing.

As for the rest, many things are appropriated, and such will continue to happen, especially in this day and age. It's not inherently bad, but must really be judged on a case-by-case basis, and even through the right perspective.

This is just my personal opinion, but if it ever came down to censorship, I would rebel. My belief is that in the creative world (that is, where fiction is concerned), nothing should be forbidden. If an artist creates something objectionable, like the playwright Kristin mentioned, then let them be open to critique if they are to present their work publicly. That said, I'd like to clarify that I wish "critique" (ie: destructive and poor feedback) on nobody.

Seriously, thank you for your time and effort. It is appreciated.

9 years 1 month ago #41 by Sir Lee

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The main difficulty for the reader is to tell apart the author who really did their research from the ones who just have a gift for bulshitting their readers and pulling stuff from their asses.

The TVTropes people (of course) have a name for this: Dan Browned. But Brown is hardly the only one. They list numerous examples in the page:
tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DanBrowned

Don't call me "Shirley." You will surely make me surly.

9 years 1 month ago - 9 years 1 month ago #42 by konzill

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Sir Lee wrote: The main difficulty for the reader is to tell apart the author who really did their research from the ones who just have a gift for bulshitting their readers and pulling stuff from their asses.

The TVTropes people (of course) have a name for this: Dan Browned. But Brown is hardly the only one. They list numerous examples in the page:
tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DanBrowned

I recall reading ~~in the Wiki~~ that Taoism as presented in Chou's stories might fall into that trope. It reads very well but does not reflect actual Taoism. Note I'm only repeating what I read here, I certainly don't know enough about Taoism to make my own judgement.

EDIT: correction it was actualy the TV Tropes Article on Whateley, under the heading Artitisti License - Religeon.

Last Edit: 9 years 1 month ago by konzill.

9 years 1 month ago #43 by XaltatunOfAcheron

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konzill wrote:
Sir Lee wrote: The main difficulty for the reader is to tell apart the author who really did their research from the ones who just have a gift for bulshitting their readers and pulling stuff from their asses.

The TVTropes people (of course) have a name for this: Dan Browned. But Brown is hardly the only one. They list numerous examples in the page:
tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DanBrowned

I recall reading in the Wiki that Taoism as presented in Chou's stories might fall into that trope. It reads very well but does not reflect actual Taoism. Note I'm only repeating what I read here, I certainly don't know enough about Taoism to make my own judgement.

Since I practiced magical Taoism a bit in the late 70s, I could probably say something, but let's just leave it that I assume that most stories which involve magic aren't all that realistic. Someone I know of just qualified as a shaman in a Mexican tradition - after ten years of study. There's a reason most really effective magicians, like most really effective "how did they do that?" martial artists are quite old. It takes time to learn, and it takes time to rebuild yourself so you can do stuff reliably.

The professionally irritable don't interest me, especially since I quit hassling people myself sometime in the late 70s. I tend to get irritated when someone assumes, right out of the blue, that because they don't like my politics I've got to be in people's face about it. It's their karma, not mine, and I don't want to get involved in it.

9 years 1 month ago #44 by Bek D Corbin

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My only statement on Cultural Appropriation is that I have a deep reflexive aversion to blonde dredlocks

9 years 1 month ago #45 by Valentine

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Bek D Corbin wrote: My only statement on Cultural Appropriation is that I have a deep reflexive aversion to blonde dredlocks

How about a blonde Afro?

Don't Drick and Drive.

9 years 1 month ago #46 by konzill

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Bek D Corbin wrote: My only statement on Cultural Appropriation is that I have a deep reflexive aversion to blonde dredlocks

My first impulse is to say that if you have regular access to running water then there is no excuse for dreadlocks period. On the other hand Tim Michim is
so awesome I'm willing to forgive him the dreadlocks (they're ginger).

9 years 1 month ago #47 by Sir Lee

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It's not so simple. When you have the sort of tightly curly hair that many African-descended people have, it sort of limits what you can do with it. It does not grow long as much as it grows up into an Afro.

I know this guy who, when young, just wanted to have long hair. His options were to let it grow in a big Seventies-style Afro, to straighten it (which looks horridly fake)... or to do dreadlocks. He opted for the dreadlocks, despite the fact that it sorta made everybody assume he was into reggae and Rastafari culture... which he hates.

He eventually gave up, and now he has short hair. But his hair is so curly that, even short, it becomes a mini-Afro. It's fairly easy to tell the day when he has a haircut, because his barber makes his head, like, perfectly spherical. He spends the rest of the day looking like a cartoon, or perhaps a Spaceball -- next day, a bit of bed-hair makes him look normal again.

Don't call me "Shirley." You will surely make me surly.

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