Question Question regarding powers for a character

Been dabbling in fanfic writing so I figured I might dip my toe into Whateley now that I've gotten a chance to catch up on the stories (still gotta work through gen2).

I have a character design in mind but I want to be sure about regarding some mutant traits/powers before I get too invested in sketching out the story etc.

First: I know that the various Gadgeteers in the universe have been shown to have their individual specialties in regards to their tech. Is this due to personal preference, their power latching on to a particular specialty when they manifest or a mix of the two? Also is it possible for a Gadgeteer's specialty to be exotic/weird enough that people dismiss what they make as unusually stable devises. I'm not talking about stuff like what a Gadgeteer 7 might create but just stuff that the overwhelming majority won't see as 'real science'.

Secondly, Avatars. Is it possible for an Avatar to 'expel' a spirit from their hollow if they're properly trained/desperate enough. Also is it possible to shield an unoccupied hollow from spirits that want in for any period of time.

Lastly, to what degree are spirits capable of twisting hosts with undesirable traits into something more preferable (to them, that is)? I don't even mean great powers like Tatanka and Ptesanwi that altered Kayda (if memory serves the original plan was take Brandon's daughter but they had to go with plan B ) or Wihinape with Pounce (who really doesn't want to be female but I doubt will ultimately have any say in the matter). I'm talking about coercion, manipulation, pavlovian-style conditioning, all the sort of things an entity; that while not having the 'ommph' to cast the proverbial polymorph spell but doesn't consider their hosts opinions, desires and plans for the future proper and intends to 'set things right'?

Well, I'll offer my two cents but please be aware that these are just informed personal opinions -- I lack the access to the extra info canon authors have.

Trantos0_1 wrote: First: I know that the various Gadgeteers in the universe have been shown to have their individual specialties in regards to their tech. Is this due to personal preference, their power latching on to a particular specialty when they manifest or a mix of the two? Also is it possible for a Gadgeteer's specialty to be exotic/weird enough that people dismiss what they make as unusually stable devises. I'm not talking about stuff like what a Gadgeteer 7 might create but just stuff that the overwhelming majority won't see as 'real science'.

Well, gadgeteers are sort of super-engineers. In the same way that you have engineers specializing in comm technology, computing tech, transport tech, building, power transmission... you should expect that gadgeteers focus on a few things that draw their interest. It's not that they can't work in other areas, it's that since they are less interested on them they lack the specialized knowledge that goes along with their power. So, I would say that is personal preference.

Trantos0_1 wrote: Secondly, Avatars. Is it possible for an Avatar to 'expel' a spirit from their hollow if they're properly trained/desperate enough. Also is it possible to shield an unoccupied hollow from spirits that want in for any period of time.

Well, we have a canon example in Tansy, who apparently expelled a minor spirit she accidentally got early after her mutation. It is unknown what happened to the spirit, however; it's generally assumed that it was destroyed, although there is quite a lot of fan speculation regarding spirit-chan's (the fan nickname) survival. And Tansy "expelled" Jinn eventually, although Jinn wanted to get away, so there was not resistance and therefore no damage. Regarding shielding... I suppose a self-aware Avatar could consciously reject bonding with a spirit. A magic-user likely could build a mystical shield against spirits too.

Trantos0_1 wrote: Lastly, to what degree are spirits capable of twisting hosts with undesirable traits into something more preferable (to them, that is)? I don't even mean great powers like Tatanka and Ptesanwi that altered Kayda (if memory serves the original plan was take Brandon's daughter but they had to go with plan B ) or Wihinape with Pounce (who really doesn't want to be female but I doubt will ultimately have any say in the matter). I'm talking about coercion, manipulation, pavlovian-style conditioning, all the sort of things an entity; that while not having the 'ommph' to cast the proverbial polymorph spell but doesn't consider their hosts opinions, desires and plans for the future proper and intends to 'set things right'?

That would depend a lot on the power of the spirit. Powerful spirits, particularly ones too "big" for their host's hallows, cannot even help influencing their hosts. OTOH, many minor spirits can't even vocalize their thoughts, which would make the sorts of things you suggest hard to do. A mid-size spirit, one not friendly to the host, who is strong enough to vocalize but not strong enough to influence the host more directly? I suppose it's possible. Jinn did exactly that to Tansy. But at this point it would not be called "bonding", it would be called "possession" by an hostile spirit.

Sir Lee wrote: Well, gadgeteers are sort of super-engineers. In the same way that you have engineers specializing in comm technology, computing tech, transport tech, building, power transmission... you should expect that gadgeteers focus on a few things that draw their interest. It's not that they can't work in other areas, it's that since they are less interested on them they lack the specialized knowledge that goes along with their power. So, I would say that is personal preference.

Ah. Because the 'shiny' aspect of the character that I had in mind was that of a 'Technomancy' gadgeteer. Because Technomancy is a thing in the WA setting (mentioned in Silent Nacht 2) but seems to be considered a dead-end/pie-in-the-sky pursuit aside from the one true example (the Telchines’ Astrolabe) and a bunch of unreliable 'maybes'. And at the same time we see Eldritch assembly line/bypass rules when producing magical equipment that the overwhelming majority of of modern-day magic users see as unavoidable.

Earth Mother had pitched a fit when she found out Caitlin’s source, and the lecture about how only diamonds mined from the earth were suitable had gone on long enough that Caitlin had actually fallen asleep. A diamond was a diamond was a diamond. Caitlin was too pragmatic to give much care to the origin of her materials. What would work, would work, despite all claims to the contrary.

Of course the Artificer is a product of a civilization that understood magic and related fields a lot better than humans.

So while the character can make creations melding magical effects and technology (not perfectly of course, they''re still learning) the majority of people give them the devise label because while they are technically reproducible; very few people on either side of the divide can get past their preconceptions/prejudice etc of the opposing field to be able to make said items.

Granted Caitlin could no doubt figure out the creations in no time flat, but why would they call her in to examine a devise?

Sir Lee wrote: Well, we have a canon example in Tansy, who apparently expelled a minor spirit she accidentally got early after her mutation. It is unknown what happened to the spirit, however; it's generally assumed that it was destroyed, although there is quite a lot of fan speculation regarding spirit-chan's (the fan nickname) survival. And Tansy "expelled" Jinn eventually, although Jinn wanted to get away, so there was not resistance and therefore no damage. Regarding shielding... I suppose a self-aware Avatar could consciously reject bonding with a spirit. A magic-user likely could build a mystical shield against spirits too.

That would depend a lot on the power of the spirit. Powerful spirits, particularly ones too "big" for their host's hallows, cannot even help influencing their hosts. OTOH, many minor spirits can't even vocalize their thoughts, which would make the sorts of things you suggest hard to do. A mid-size spirit, one not friendly to the host, who is strong enough to vocalize but not strong enough to influence the host more directly? I suppose it's possible. Jinn did exactly that to Tansy. But at this point it would not be called "bonding", it would be called "possession" by an hostile spirit.

Ah, because the initial 'tragic origin story' idea was that the character and a friend were unknowingly low level Avatars.

The friend (a tomboy) gets jumped by a spirit (with particular ideas on the behavior of men and women etc) and the character who has a Wiz-0 trait of being able to see spirits (though not nearly to the extent Diamonback can) has to watch their friend slowly be manipulated/twisted into a caricature of herself ala Stepford Wives etc over a period of time. This triggers the reckless head-long delve into Technomancy gadgeteering as he frantically tries to figure out something to pry this parasite out of her before his friend is just....rewritten. No local mages that might help and the community just sees it as the friend 'growing out of that phase and becoming a proper young lady' while the boy is making up stories.

Spirit eventually gets annoyed at the boy trying to interfere with it 'setting things right' and calls in a favor to A: deal with the problem and B: get its host a 'like-minded sister'. Character gets jumped and the spirit manages to twist his body to female (not on the spot but he'll change into one within a matter of weeks etc) but before it can get to modifying his mind and soul to order; he blows a 'spirit bomb' that fries it. Couldn't use it to help his friend because the weapon can't sever a solidified spirit-avatar connection. Between the transformation, his/her being outed as a mutant and his friend being essentially gone by this point (spirit did thorough work in pruning 'unwanted' behaviors); there's no point in staying.

Fast-track to Whateley you have a very twitchy gadgeteer that does not want to be an avatar (she sees people hosting spirits as either fools playing with fire or broken/yet-to-be-broken puppets on strings) with a shoot-until-ectoplasmic-gibs policy regarding any spirits that might try to get near her. Problem is she still has an unoccupied (if 'scarred' to people with the right senses) hollow and every spirit that can see goes "Ohh, free real estate. Mine, all mine."

I am currently writing a "technomancer" of sorts, but my character is not actually a technomancer per se, she is a GAD/WIZ combo that fails to craft her essence through magical traditions, thus she has taken to use gadgets as a workaround for this. Basically... she uses her magical abilities through gadgets.

Secondly, Avatars. Is it possible for an Avatar to 'expel' a spirit from their hollow if they're properly trained/desperate enough. Also is it possible to shield an unoccupied hollow from spirits that want in for any period of time.

Yes, if I remember correctly this is discussed at length in some of Jade stories. Especially in Jade 5 - Redefining Jade, Mangoose expulsed Jinn from his hallow after having had pulled her in.

Softdreams wrote: I am currently writing a "technomancer" of sorts, but my character is not actually a technomancer per se, she is a GAD/WIZ combo that fails to craft her essence through magical traditions, thus she has taken to use gadgets as a workaround for this. Basically... she uses her magical abilities through gadgets.

My intention I had for this character is that she simply can't use magic the 'traditional' way without decades of study ala a baseline with no inherent talent. Heck it might be a while before she even cottons on to the notion that what she is doing might be considered 'magic' by others since the theories in her head and studies done are straightforward and practical.

Nothing like this voodoo-hoodoo that the Magic Arts faculty is obsessed with (several members saying she should embrace her Avatar status and reach out to the spirits doesn't help impressions). Her equipment runs on a particular form of energy (provisional term Aether) that can be passively collected from the environment (need more data, some areas seem more plentiful then others), converted from electricity (though that takes some special equipment) or the rendered down remains of spirits that try to breach her defenses (you'd think those parasites would learn, she's going to need more batteries). They're all constructed of perfectly normal materials (none of this copper quenched in maiden's blood or mistletoe harvested with a golden sickle stuff) and she doesn't need a song-and-dance routine for them to work.

Trantos0_1 wrote: Nothing like this voodoo-hoodoo that the Magic Arts faculty is obsessed with (several members saying she should embrace her Avatar status and reach out to the spirits doesn't help impressions).

The Mystic Arts faculty rarely involve themselves with Avatars unless they have/develop a magical talent (Kodiak) or need to know more about the field to survive (Tansy, maybe Phase). Regarding their attitude w/r/t spirits:

Now The Real Learning Can Begin, Chap. 5 wrote: "Can either of you identify the eight principal dangers associated with extra-dimensional beings?" she demanded. I gulped; I had no idea what she was talking about. "Oh, come now, Kayda," she continued sternly. "Surely you know one of them from experience, since you were attacked in your dream-world. Okay, can either of you tell me the complications that can arise in a magic ritual?"

After an awkward moment of silence, when neither of us dared to speak, she continued. "Do you know how spells work? How they are designed to make the magic flow the way you want, and not have an uncontrolled mess that might attract unwanted attention? Or what kind of ... things ... would be attracted to errant magic?"

Trantos0_1 wrote: Her equipment runs on a particular form of energy (provisional term Aether) that can be passively collected from the environment (need more data, some areas seem more plentiful then others), converted from electricity (though that takes some special equipment) or the rendered down remains of spirits that try to breach her defenses (you'd think those parasites would learn, she's going to need more batteries). They're all constructed of perfectly normal materials (none of this copper quenched in maiden's blood or mistletoe harvested with a golden sickle stuff) and she doesn't need a song-and-dance routine for them to work.

Buck Swift thinks he works with aether too. He's a devisor.

There have been some statements to the effect that, per the Contract of Solomon, spirits cannot take residence in a Host's hallow without permission.

The Kodiak Conspiracy wrote: Kodiak frowned. “As if we have time for this adolescent nonsense,” he growled. “Were it not for the Contract of Solomon I would have you just possess the girl and be done with it.”

“You aren't the lord of me,” Grizzly returned coldly. “And that kind of thinking is exactly why the Contract came to be. And if you had not made such a ham-fisted mess of things I wouldn't have such a difficult time winning the girl's trust!”

Persuasion works, but trickery and deception toward obtaining that permission is not prohibited.

Trantos0_1 wrote: So while the character can make creations melding magical effects and technology (not perfectly of course, they''re still learning) the majority of people give them the devise label because while they are technically reproducible; very few people on either side of the divide can get past their preconceptions/prejudice etc of the opposing field to be able to make said items.

That's pretty solidly in devisor-land: an energy source outside the known theories of physics that only the tinker can use. A gadgeteer makes reproducible devices: special tools may be needed (as with any design) but no special mindset required. Note that the Artificer is inherently Not An Example of what other characters can construct unless other characters have been shown doing the same.

Trantos0_1 wrote: The friend (a tomboy) gets jumped by a spirit (with particular ideas on the behavior of men and women etc) and the character who has a Wiz-0 trait of being able to see spirits (though not nearly to the extent Diamonback can)

Astral projection, aura reading, and "new senses" generally fall under ESP (This is part of how Metro is spec'd out). So there's a normal route to that, a magical version, and chances are there can be are gadgets or devises that may work.

null0trooper wrote: The Mystic Arts faculty rarely involve themselves with Avatars unless they have/develop a magical talent (Kodiak) or need to know more about the field to survive (Tansy, maybe Phase). Regarding their attitude w/r/t spirits:

Huh, good to know. Who does tend to work with Avatars? Couldn't find any mention of any sort of 'Avatar class' etc.

null0trooper wrote: Buck Swift thinks he works with aether too. He's a devisor.

I was grabbing a random name out of a hat for a description. I didn't want to use essence or quintessence (both are names for the 'raw power' for magic) and was trying to go for 'There are no existing scientific studies analyzing this form of energy and it's definitely not one of the known ones'. Ergo she has to call it something.

null0trooper wrote: There have been some statements to the effect that, per the Contract of Solomon, spirits cannot take residence in a Host's hallow without permission.

Persuasion works, but trickery and deception toward obtaining that permission is not prohibited.

Really? From everything I can tell (might have missed a section) Wakan Tanka essentially gave Wihinape free access to Danny's hollow without any permission needed on his part.

No, silly! You're not listening. Wakan Tanka is looking out for you. She asked me to be your spirit once she knew you manifested and had an empty hallow, and I just couldn't resist! You wouldn't want to have some silly spirit, like a butterfly or a cricket or a slime mold, now, would you? She was practically purring seductively.

Danny had no idea about the agreement or about Wihinape. She just hopped in without so much as a by your leave.

null0trooper wrote: That's pretty solidly in devisor-land: an energy source outside the known theories of physics that only the tinker can use. A gadgeteer makes reproducible devices: special tools may be needed (as with any design) but no special mindset required. Note that the Artificer is inherently Not An Example of what other characters can construct unless other characters have been shown doing the same.

Sorry I'm bad at explaining this sort of thing outside of my head. Yes, anyone can repeat the character's creations if they repeat the steps with the proper equipment. But the proverbial physics behind it/instruction on how to build it, include stuff that the gadgeteers doing the testing see as superfluous. End result is that the copy doesn't function or poorly/randomly, sort of like building a circuit board in a room full of dust, dirt and all sort of contaminants. Presumably that plus the 'weird energy' power source she insists her equipment needs make them label it Devise.

null0trooper wrote: Astral projection, aura reading, and "new senses" generally fall under ESP (This is part of how Metro is spec'd out). So there's a normal route to that, a magical version, and chances are there can be are gadgets or devises that may work.

So generic low level ESP trait then. Thanks.

There are Avatar classes! They are commonly referred to as Spirits I, and Spirits II by the students. A couple of stories mention them in passing, but one of the Scald Crow stories (I'll try looking for it later) gave us some insight into what's talked about/taught in these classes.

Regarding this energy thing... I understand your character reluctance to having a spirit and its relevance to the story, and I definitely do not mean to impose my ideas on you but... What if your character has a spirit that goes by unnoticed by most? It grants your character some sort of faux-tinkerer ability (either devising or gadgeteering) but powers these inventions with spiritual energy which is produced by avatars instead of Essence. That'd certainly be new and insteresting! Now this would require your Avatar to be either a mid or high-ranking one.

(This is the story I made referrence to above: Scald Crow story: Scald-Crow 2: Under Pressure Part 1)

Softdreams wrote: There are Avatar classes! They are commonly referred to as Spirits I, and Spirits II by the students. A couple of stories mention them in passing, but one of the Scald Crow stories (I'll try looking for it later) gave us some insight into what's talked about/taught in these classes.

(This is the story I made reference to above: Scald Crow story: Scald-Crow 2: Under Pressure Part 1)

Huh, I'll have to reread SC 2 then. It can just be a bit of a slog 'translating' the accent of the main character and her spirit at times.

As it is, the course is mentioned in a couple of other places but there is very little about what the course actually talks about. The most is in 'Young Squirrel’s Fancy' where the gist seems to be that the course is 'So you're an avatar! You might be experiencing strange and new sensations and behaviors. This is not your fault, it is perfectly normal and here is how to handle it'.
Pythia gives the impression that the course would have ensured that Aquerna would not have been caught off guard by spring.

Softdreams wrote: Regarding this energy thing... I understand your character reluctance to having a spirit and its relevance to the story, and I definitely do not mean to impose my ideas on you but... What if your character has a spirit that goes by unnoticed by most? It grants your character some sort of faux-tinkerer ability (either devising or gadgeteering) but powers these inventions with spiritual energy which is produced by avatars instead of Essence. That'd certainly be new and insteresting! Now this would require your Avatar to be either a mid or high-ranking one.

You aren't far off. She knows that she's playing russian roulette since spirits only need to get lucky once to get past her defensive measures (and using the 'spirit bomb' previously mentioned will lead to long term health issues of all kinds).

So on the surface she's got two options. One: take a chance with a spirit inhabiting her hollow and hope it doesn't **** her over too badly. Two: Keep using the shields and barrier for the rest of her life.
The intent for the finale of the story is that she takes a third option:

Trantos0_1 wrote: Ah. Because the 'shiny' aspect of the character that I had in mind was that of a 'Technomancy' gadgeteer. Because Technomancy is a thing in the WA setting (mentioned in Silent Nacht 2) but seems to be considered a dead-end/pie-in-the-sky pursuit aside from the one true example (the Telchines’ Astrolabe) and a bunch of unreliable 'maybes'. And at the same time we see Eldritch assembly line/bypass rules when producing magical equipment that the overwhelming majority of of modern-day magic users see as unavoidable.

There are a number of "Technomantic" types in the WU, several at Whateley during Gen 1.

Nephandus, Techno-Devil, KnickKnack, Nimbus, and others. Check out Ayla and the Mad Scientist. It's far from deadend/pie in the sky pursuit.

Valentine wrote: There are a number of "Technomantic" types in the WU, several at Whateley during Gen 1.

Nephandus, Techno-Devil, KnickKnack, Nimbus, and others. Check out Ayla and the Mad Scientist. It's far from deadend/pie in the sky pursuit.

Thing is, those are Devisor/mage power combos (well maybe on TD's part, I can't remember if if his ratings etc were ever mentioned). Their tech works with magic becuase they are bending the laws of reality for it to work.

This is a pure gadgeteer (no devisor traits). As I previously said, I'm running off Silent Nacht where it's outright said in-universe by an individual who's fairly knowledgeable about exotic artifacts said that while technomancy ('mundane' technology and magic working together seamlessly) is in theory possible but only this long gone group of essentially unknown people managed to get it to work right.

My running 'in-universe' plan for how she manages to design technology that magic can get along with is math. Lots and lots of head-breaking math that while Sara/Carmilla can easily crack, the vast majority of mortals (mutant or otherwise) have difficulties parsing.

Trantos0_1 wrote:

Valentine wrote: There are a number of "Technomantic" types in the WU, several at Whateley during Gen 1.

Nephandus, Techno-Devil, KnickKnack, Nimbus, and others. Check out Ayla and the Mad Scientist. It's far from deadend/pie in the sky pursuit.

Thing is, those are Devisor/mage power combos (well maybe on TD's part, I can't remember if if his ratings etc were ever mentioned). Their tech works with magic becuase they are bending the laws of reality for it to work.

This is a pure gadgeteer (no devisor traits). As I previously said, I'm running off Silent Nacht where it's outright said in-universe by an individual who's fairly knowledgeable about exotic artifacts said that while technomancy ('mundane' technology and magic working together seamlessly) is in theory possible but only this long gone group of essentially unknown people managed to get it to work right.

My running 'in-universe' plan for how she manages to design technology that magic can get along with is math. Lots and lots of head-breaking math that while Sara/Carmilla can easily crack, the vast majority of mortals (mutant or otherwise) have difficulties parsing.

Ah, from here:

Kate sighed. “Okay, here goes - one place where Harry Potter gets it right is that Magic and Technology really don’t get along very well. Magic is really about imposing your will directly on the Universe, while Technology is firmly set within exploiting the rules of Physics. Getting them to get along can be done; it’s done all the time. It can even be very effective - when you manage to pull it off. BUT it’s hard, and the more advanced the magic and tech get, the harder it gets. Technomancy is the perfect blending of technology and magic. True Technomancy would allow magical workings with no actual input from the user beyond pushing a button; it would all be in the device, and it could be mass manufactured.”

I think a bit of it worked for the Telchines is because, by today's standards, they weren't working with super-high tech. It's nearly just a brass astrolabe or something. So, yeah, if you want to merge modern magic with modern tech, it's gonna be tough.

Malady wrote: I think a bit of it worked for the Telchines is because, by today's standards, they weren't working with super-high tech. It's nearly just a brass astrolabe or something. So, yeah, if you want to merge modern magic with modern tech, it's gonna be tough.

Oh sure, but Magic (at least in the WU setting) has the advantage of requiring far less of a logistics chain than modern-day technology does. Real magic seems to be done 95% on a personal/master-to-apprentice scale with the occasional coven (or loose grouping of covens with dozens of people total) forming for mutual support/idea sharing.

But modern day technology? It requires entire civilizations and massive industrial and personnel commitment (often spanning more than one continent) to make the things we take for granted. A mage on campus lighting their essence can in theory can be done without any outside help. Devisors and gadgeteers? Even from what little we've seen of the various labs, there are tons of advanced equipment, materials and components constantly sent to Whateley s this kids can build their tech. The Devisor Imaging and Planning Lab is a prime example.

So to me, the Telchines didn't use anything fancier than a brass astrolabe as the core of their technomancy because the collective 'mundane' human civilization simply hadn't advanced far enough (they were apparently kicking around during the Ancient Greek era meaning an astrolabe would be considered advanced technology) . Also admittedly the one trope/notion I've always disliked is 'We cannot and never will match the creations of the Ancients'. Just because a process/technique has been forgotten doesn't mean it can't be rediscovered or even improved on.

Malady wrote:

Trantos0_1 wrote:

Valentine wrote: There are a number of "Technomantic" types in the WU, several at Whateley during Gen 1.

Nephandus, Techno-Devil, KnickKnack, Nimbus, and others. Check out Ayla and the Mad Scientist. It's far from deadend/pie in the sky pursuit.

Thing is, those are Devisor/mage power combos (well maybe on TD's part, I can't remember if if his ratings etc were ever mentioned). Their tech works with magic becuase they are bending the laws of reality for it to work.

This is a pure gadgeteer (no devisor traits). As I previously said, I'm running off Silent Nacht where it's outright said in-universe by an individual who's fairly knowledgeable about exotic artifacts said that while technomancy ('mundane' technology and magic working together seamlessly) is in theory possible but only this long gone group of essentially unknown people managed to get it to work right.

My running 'in-universe' plan for how she manages to design technology that magic can get along with is math. Lots and lots of head-breaking math that while Sara/Carmilla can easily crack, the vast majority of mortals (mutant or otherwise) have difficulties parsing.

Ah, from here:

Kate sighed. “Okay, here goes - one place where Harry Potter gets it right is that Magic and Technology really don’t get along very well. Magic is really about imposing your will directly on the Universe, while Technology is firmly set within exploiting the rules of Physics. Getting them to get along can be done; it’s done all the time. It can even be very effective - when you manage to pull it off. BUT it’s hard, and the more advanced the magic and tech get, the harder it gets. Technomancy is the perfect blending of technology and magic. True Technomancy would allow magical workings with no actual input from the user beyond pushing a button; it would all be in the device, and it could be mass manufactured.”

I think a bit of it worked for the Telchines is because, by today's standards, they weren't working with super-high tech. It's nearly just a brass astrolabe or something. So, yeah, if you want to merge modern magic with modern tech, it's gonna be tough.

While Whateley is well known for its unreliable narrators. I don't think I would trust anything Kate is explaining. Especially in the case of what was going on in that story.

Valentine wrote:

Malady wrote: While Whateley is well known for its unreliable narrators. I don't think I would trust anything Kate is explaining. Especially in the case of what was going on in that story.

What reason does Kate have to lie about it to them?

Heck even before that point (in chapter 1) she was freely offering up information/deductions on the Hollywood Headhunter that was pretty spot on (as we see in Ayla and the Grinch). The only person she really went out of her way to deceive in that series of events was her mother (and she had multiple reasons for that).

The only other things she constantly denies/lies about are the things she enjoys (extreme sports) and that she doesn't hate Sunburst as a guardian nearly as much as she says.

And besides, that thing was a (at least partially) magical artifact. Not something you want people ignorantly messing with when you are potentially in the blast radius if something goes wrong.

Trantos0_1 wrote:

Valentine wrote: While Whateley is well known for its unreliable narrators. I don't think I would trust anything Kate is explaining. Especially in the case of what was going on in that story.

What reason does Kate have to lie about it to them?

She's not exactly giving a class to fellow magicians. She just has to give a plausible answer that satisfies Chiller's questions and keeps the left hand from knowing what the right hand's up to.

But if she's dealing out the gospel truth, you have to accept that:

Nacht wrote: “Technomancy,” Kate finished for him. “There have been several instances of crude, erratic, unreliable devices that might have been technomantic in nature, in all history, there is only ONE reliably documented case of dependable technomancy: the Telchines’ Astrolabe.

... in which case, techmancy isn't a thing within the capabilities of a newly-manifested mutant.

Trantos0_1 wrote: And besides, that thing was a (at least partially) magical artifact. Not something you want people ignorantly messing with when you are potentially in the blast radius if something goes wrong.

It's treated as an artifact, yes.
Magical? Maybe.
Only the result of merging technology and human magic: not proven.

Edit: You could probably ask the author, though I can't find a topic thread for "Silent Nacht"

There are many different types and classifications of unreliable narrators and not all of them are liars. Please do note; Kate is a sophomore, she's far more "educated" or experienced in the mystic arts than most because her mother has a tendency to get her in dangerous, mostly magical, situations. She might just not know enough about technomancy as she claims she does.

It happens! This is why a lot of us come here to discuss these things. Technomancy is far too unexplored to make any exact or factual claims on. Which is why so many of us have gone other routes; either be it... Devises that work with Essence (Kristin explained it quite well a few days ago in the forum), Devisor/mage combinations, enchanted devises etc...

null0trooper wrote: ... in which case, techmancy isn't a thing within the capabilities of a newly-manifested mutant.

It's the same way Jericho needed time, effort, study and lots of materials to make his Rafe Armor. Of course she wouldn't be making equivalents to the Astrolabe right out of the gate. But technomancy here is the notion of having technology and magic functioning together instead of breaking each other. Her initial creations would most likely be unstable while leaning more towards tech or magic instead of a perfect balance. She needs time and the facilities to work on the theories and inspirations while constructing the tools to build the tools and so on.

The spirit bomb I mentioned in a previous post? Idealized/finalized version could be something that you activate then put in the recharger for later. The version used is a ball filled with slag after being used because she simply couldn't make the true iteration of the tech yet.

null0trooper wrote: You could probably ask the author, though I can't find a topic thread for "Silent Nacht"

Heck I can't even find a thread talking about Nacht in the first place. Could have been eaten in the forum crash but who knows.

Though in regards to story and character questions, is Corbin open to them? I'll admit I've never really poked the authors about much of anything previously.

Trantos0_1 wrote:

Valentine wrote:

Malady wrote: While Whateley is well known for its unreliable narrators. I don't think I would trust anything Kate is explaining. Especially in the case of what was going on in that story.

What reason does Kate have to lie about it to them?

Heck even before that point (in chapter 1) she was freely offering up information/deductions on the Hollywood Headhunter that was pretty spot on (as we see in Ayla and the Grinch). The only person she really went out of her way to deceive in that series of events was her mother (and she had multiple reasons for that).

The only other things she constantly denies/lies about are the things she enjoys (extreme sports) and that she doesn't hate Sunburst as a guardian nearly as much as she says.

And besides, that thing was a (at least partially) magical artifact. Not something you want people ignorantly messing with when you are potentially in the blast radius if something goes wrong.

Because she enjoys being deceptive.
Because Chiller was an ass, and she didn't really care if he got the right info.
Because she didn't care if any of them had the right info.

Kate isn't the friendliest or most honest person around. Now if the discussion had been between Kate and Jadis, I would more than likely believe her, but between Kate and that group, there's no reason to believe her. She might just be making it all up, pretending she has knowledge she doesn't really have, as opposed to knowing and describing the opposite.

Valentine wrote: Because she enjoys being deceptive.
Because Chiller was an ass, and she didn't really care if he got the right info.
Because she didn't care if any of them had the right info.

Kate isn't the friendliest or most honest person around. Now if the discussion had been between Kate and Jadis, I would more than likely believe her, but between Kate and that group, there's no reason to believe her. She might just be making it all up, pretending she has knowledge she doesn't really have, as opposed to knowing and describing the opposite.

Check chapter 5 of Silent Nacht. There is an extended discussion between Dr. Venus and Cobb regarding the Astrolabe that more or less covers the same points and they have not talked to Nacht about it at all.

Here's the start of it to speed up searching:

"Ormenious' Clock has power in of itself, but its primary value is the 'computer' or bits of ancient not-quite-bronze clockwork inside it. Combined with a not-bronze platen generally known as the Aegean Mirror, and a stylus or 'clock arms' for the unsophisticated, the three units form the Telchine's Astrolabe. The Telchine's Astrolabe is an artifact that is thousands of years older than recorded Human History, and is supposed to be the masterpiece of the beings that forged Saturn's sickle and Neptune's trident."

Trantos0_1 wrote:

null0trooper wrote: ... in which case, techmancy isn't a thing within the capabilities of a newly-manifested mutant.

It's the same way Jericho needed time, effort, study and lots of materials to make his Rafe Armor. Of course she wouldn't be making equivalents to the Astrolabe right out of the gate. But technomancy here is the notion of having technology and magic functioning together instead of breaking each other. Her initial creations would most likely be unstable while leaning more towards tech or magic instead of a perfect balance. She needs time and the facilities to work on the theories and inspirations while constructing the tools to build the tools and so on.

The spirit bomb I mentioned in a previous post? Idealized/finalized version could be something that you activate then put in the recharger for later. The version used is a ball filled with slag after being used because she simply couldn't make the true iteration of the tech yet.

There are many ways you could go about this; a character I'm currently working on specializes in enchantments and makes armors like the ones Erza from Fairy Tail uses. But she's still a student (sophomore, to be exact) so her armors are still a long way from being actually useful, or to have any powerful/complex enchantments weaved into them.

That spirit bomb you mentioned above could be made by ANY devisor who sets their mind to it, especially... An angry devisor. Thing is... I don't think technomancy is a mutant trait, it's more of a specialization, meaning your character would either have to be a Wiz-type mutant (the Wizard trait only helps the mutant gather Essence faster than a baseline) that studies to become a technomancer, or some Esper (DEV/Clairvoyant) trait that gives them insight into the workings of technomancy.

Softdreams wrote: Thing is... I don't think technomancy is a mutant trait, it's more of a specialization, meaning your character would either have to be a Wiz-type mutant (the Wizard trait only helps the mutant gather Essence faster than a baseline) that studies to become a technomancer, or some Esper (DEV/Clairvoyant) trait that gives them insight into the workings of technomancy.

Consider the possibility that true technomancy may involve "enchantments" fueled and shaped by divine/demonic energies that are not the same thing as the Essence that human magicians normally deal with. Even further removed would be whatever "Class 3" or "Class X" entities deal in.

Good point, Null! But that would only complicate things further since Wizards are only very rarely attuned to the Infernal or Celestial plane, so in order to practice technomancy said mage would have to learn to trade Essence with beings from other planes, or convert neutral Essence which... Isn't very helpful.

Edit: oh, and safely working with natured Essence without letting yourself be changed by its very nature. That amounts to quite a few years of training to become a technomancer.

Softdreams wrote: There are many ways you could go about this; a character I'm currently working on specializes in enchantments and makes armors like the ones Erza from Fairy Tail uses. But she's still a student (sophomore, to be exact) so her armors are still a long way from being actually useful, or to have any powerful/complex enchantments weaved into them.

That spirit bomb you mentioned above could be made by ANY devisor who sets their mind to it, especially... An angry devisor. Thing is... I don't think technomancy is a mutant trait, it's more of a specialization, meaning your character would either have to be a Wiz-type mutant (the Wizard trait only helps the mutant gather Essence faster than a baseline) that studies to become a technomancer, or some Esper (DEV/Clairvoyant) trait that gives them insight into the workings of technomancy.

I know that technomancy isn't a trait in and of itself. From the very beginning I intended for the character to be a gadgeteer that ends up specializing in technomancy. With the descriptions on the wiki of how the mid to high tier gadgeteers function, it's not that far out:

Gadgeteer 4 is looking at some of the things that we currently consider possible, but just don't have practical ways to test the theories yet. You prove those theories, get all the research that comes down the line after solving THOSE problems, and then you use that for inspirations for your inventions.

Gadgeteer 5 is like taking a fairly practical technology out of today's science (based) fiction, using it as inspirations for a chain of research projects that will lead to the development of the theories necessary for you to invent the technology that people think is just fictional.

Gadgeteer 6 is like taking something theoretical in today's science (based) fiction, using it as inspiration for a chain of research projects that will lead to the development of the theories necessary for you to invent technology that would spin out of the theories proposed as potential 'futures' in that fictional world.

Gadgeteer 7 invents things based on theories that no one even imagines yet. The only reason people believe that Gadgeteer 7 items are gadgets and not devises are that they always work. But no one else has the equipment to replicate the process to try duplicating the invention

We know that technomancy is possible as there is at least one (known) working example of it so you don't need to go up to rank 6 or 7 to pull it off. Of course there had to be the push/impulse for the budding gadgeteer's talent to 'focus' on a particular field/study of interest. And there has to be at least some sort of specialization in the gadgeteer talent since none of the gadgeteers are equally competent on all technological fields.

So the rough timeline for the character's eventual specialization into technomancy goes sort of like this.
1. Character knows they're a gadgeteer (keeping it secret), has minor ESP capable of seeing spirits and such (occasionally spots weird stuff, thinks he's just seeing things after a late night etc), and is AV-1 (doesn't know).
2. Friend is also an unknowing AV-1, gets jumped by my previously mentioned malicious spirit and the character really wants to get it out of her because he can see it doing things to her mind. At this point he realizes he has not just been seeing things.
3. His gadgeteer trait begins aligning with technomancy because that is a field that can do what he's looking for.
4. Problem is that gadgeteers (and devisors as well I suppose) need time to 'spool up' as it were (polishing your theories, making the tools and prototypes etc). Spirit gets annoyed at his interference and sicks some 'help' on him. He blows the prototype bomb to save himself.
5. With him now outed and being shipped to Whateley, the spirit by all indications having finished subsuming his friend and his/her new status as prime spirit bait, there is nothing more she can do. As such R&D shifts to keeping herself safe from every spirit wanting to do a swan-dive into her (now scarred*) hollow.

*Essentially dynamiting out something that was in the process of attaching itself to your soul has side effects. Who'd have thunk it?

You know, when I started this thread I has expected that people would focus a lot more on the 'Avatar that wants nothing to do with spirits' thing; as opposed to her technomancy. Go figure.

I'm not completely sure but I think GAD specializations are not mutation-based (I asked this question but about devisors instead of gadgeteers on the forum a while ago, I'm still waiting on a response), Gadgeteers just choose to go certain routers since technological powers require actual studying... Honestly, I'm all over the place on this one. I wish I could give you a solid answer.

That's a very solid storyline! I have something similar going on with the character I mentioned before (Phantasmagoria; specializes in enchantments). Honestly, that's a character I would like to read about; looking forward to the story.

Andddd... It's understandable an Avatar wouldn't want a spirit (most have ulterior motives), the Kayda and Loophole stories did a very good job explaining the upsides and downsides of having a spirit. Phantasmagoria also has an unoccupied hollow, but it's because of self-interest not fear of hosting a spirit.

Softdreams wrote: I'm not completely sure but I think GAD specializations are not mutation-based (I asked this question but about devisors instead of gadgeteers on the forum a while ago, I'm still waiting on a response), Gadgeteers just choose to go certain routers since technological powers require actual studying... Honestly, I'm all over the place on this one. I wish I could give you a solid answer.

I'm running off the wiki here since we don't have a real solid look into the inner working of a 'pure' gadgeteer from canon:

To ‘Gadgeteer’ is to instinctively know how to put mechanical and electronic devices together so that they will achieve a certain effect.
--
Gadgeteering seems to work on the design, repair, sabotage and jury rig levels. Gadgeteers find learning technical and engineering skills very easy, but having them also makes their tinkering sounder and more effective.
--
Add hydraulic, electronic, chemical and possibly biological to gadgeteer's instinctive knowledeg. (apparently mentioned by Diane Castle)

So there seems to be at least some inherent understanding of 'whatever' subject but the gadgeteer doesn't get the entire database all at once; they have to work at it.

That's a very solid storyline! I have something similar going on with the character I mentioned before (Phantasmagoria; specializes in enchantments). Honestly, that's a character I would like to read about; looking forward to the story.

Thanks. Still have to clear the buffer on some other things I'm working on but hopefully I'll be able to start putting words to 'paper' at some point.

Andddd... It's understandable an Avatar wouldn't want a spirit (most have ulterior motives), the Kayda and Loophole stories did a very good job explaining the upsides and downsides of having a spirit. Phantasmagoria also has an unoccupied hollow, but it's because of self-interest not fear of hosting a spirit.

Yup. Though my intent is to have a semi-hostile relationship between Kayda and the MC. I say 'semi' because while Kayda doesn't hate the MC; the latter considers her little more than a meat puppet pretending to still be a real person. Because two big name spirits like the ones that are constantly by her (much less all the lesser ones that drop by)? There is no way that after altering/photoshopping their host that much that they didn't 'prune unwanted behaviors' and 'encourage' particular opinions and trains of thought. This isn't true (at least to the degree that the MC is expecting) but she has prejudices regarding spirits based on past experience.

Meanwhile Tatanka Wakan, Tanka and other similar beings don't like the MC because she doesn't stick to passive etheric defenses. Think of the stereotypical zombie defense situation; you can't just stick to walls or the swarm will eventually clamber over or knock them down. You need to be able to thin the herd as needed and the MC's methods tend to be somewhat non-discriminate when it comes to 'removing' all the spirits that are constantly plastering her shields.

Absolutely, there's definitely some instictive knowledge going on! I wish GADs/DEVs get a little more explored in future stories/forum discussions.

I write in a very peculiar way... I write scenes and tend sort of find a way to string them together; which tends to limit my writing tremendously. Lol

Makes perfect sense, I can see how that'd play out, taking into account what MC's friend's spirit has put them through; her stance on Kayda's situation is very in-character. Phantasmagoria's enchantment to keep spirits out works differently, it's an artificial construct bound to a bracelet; it stays powered by feeding on the spiritual energy given off by her Hallow so the spiritual energy doesn't leak out and attract any wandering spirits.