Question Halloween Remembrance day?

I know we had the remembrance ceremony but some of the stories based in 2007 are getting into late September and early October. Will we have an assembly to remember the brave security officers and students that fought that day, and the people that died defending the school? it would be a shock to the freshmen and new transfers to hear what happened and a little bit of an eyeopener that even at Whateley, you are not safe, no matter how invincible you think you are.

Makes sense to me!

I'm more wondering about the kind of insano security they will have set up this year.
"You put who on the pay roll?!?" "And she has a crush of who?!?" "Well great where are we going to fit a giant fire breathing monster into the security rotation." "Oh I'm sorry atomic fire breathing kaiju. Because that is so much better."

NJM1564 wrote: I'm more wondering about the kind of insano security they will have set up this year.

Reverand Euglund will be on sabbatical, far away from computers and phones and pesky things like technology and human contact, with a couple of his closest friends from Whateley security keeping him company.

24 hours a day.

Seven days a week.

Including when he's asleep and going to the toilet.

They might be rather firm about it.

I'd think there would be an assembly/memorial the day before Halloween, or at the very least a moment of silence before the festivities kick off on the night itself.

Phoenix Spiritus wrote:

NJM1564 wrote: I'm more wondering about the kind of insano security they will have set up this year.

Reverand Euglund will be on sabbatical, far away from computers and phones and pesky things like technology and human contact, with a couple of his closest friends from Whateley security keeping him company.

24 hours a day.

Seven days a week.

Including when he's asleep and going to the toilet.

They might be rather firm about it.

Better idea. Eldrich sequestering him in Sara's room. By the time he gets out he'll be the prettiest girl in the ball.
Or a funny smelling stuffed animal. It's eats and screams and makes pee pee. Get your limited edition Chathulubear. Only 10,000 made.

Phoenix Spiritus wrote:

NJM1564 wrote: I'm more wondering about the kind of insano security they will have set up this year.

Reverand Euglund will be on sabbatical, far away from computers and phones and pesky things like technology and human contact, with a couple of his closest friends from Whateley security keeping him company.

While Reverend Englund might well belong in the Greybar Hotel, I suspect he'll be back to having his associates and the Goobers carry out a murder or two this year, while he plans other fatal diversions for Security.

That actually begs the question as to how many of the happy little inquisitors he's trained ("Nicely done, Oak. Firm, forceful, with just enough force to get the point across, but not enough to cause permanent injury.")have gone on to commit further crimes in their god's name?

Please remember how well he handled Seraphim?

Englund is extreme. Beyond extreme. However, we have the advantage of a viewpoint on sara, a very sympathetic viewpoint, that is entirely outside his knowledge or perspective. He has lived his entire life fighting things MUCH scarier than Sara... and winning, so that they don't EAT EARTH. Most of the students he trains probably go on to work with groups like the Night Wolves, keeping city and country spaces clean of the kind of things that go bump in that night. The stuff the average super is completely unprepared for.

It is unfair of us to presume evil intent, will, or an evil soul upon any of his very well meaning, if incredibly stuck up and unfortunately misguided, students simply because we, with our unique perspective, side with Sara. Who, notably, has on more than one occasion committed outright murder and stolen several souls. Stolen, not been given. Nor did she try to give them back (that I recall). In essence, well meaning or not, she arguably IS guilty of many of things they want her DEAD for. Granted, the worst side effects of having their soul taken by Sara seem to be unusual high sensitivity to lust, libido, and screaming in pain and agony right along with their mistress if she is gravely injured.

Englund is an extremist nutbar. He's also a very justified extremist nutbar who, based on the info given in stories that bring him up, one of the only reasons the massive number of class X sites around Whateley haven't swallowed the school. He's seen what's out there folks. He came back alive. Let's not forget that, even as we steer VERY clear of him.

He's certainly a character I'd go so far as to say we need to see more of, as he's been almost entirely out of the picture since Halloween and its aftermath went down.

What's he been up to, and what does he make of all the new freshman, along with some of the more notable events around the school that surely can't have passed him by?

Englund was involved with Seraphim over christmas, was seen with sebastiano just fore the lampstand incident, is Josie's faculty advisor because of Schrodinger, and is the faculty advisor for Kodiak's alliance against the Bastard. Outside that, no, we haven't seen much of him.

It is also important to note that before Cirque's death he was apparently far more balanced and reasonable. And now Cirque's successor (Fey) is buddy buddy with one of the things that killed her.

mhalpern wrote: It is also important to note that before Cirque's death he was apparently far more balanced and reasonable. And now Cirque's successor (Fey) is buddy buddy with one of the things that killed her.

One of the creatures related to something that killed her, at least. To him there isn't much difference i suppose.

Englund is necessary because they don't have a better option to replace him, not because they like him. They need him and have no means of successfully filling the hole he'd leave behind (suppressing everything around the school that would do all sorts of horrible things if left alone). He takes in students with an interest (or a necessity) or an aptitude for the line of work he is in, and trains them, but he doesn't really seem to do so against their will. He IS a big religious guy, so he's strong on free will for humans. However, sara is NOT human, he knows that, and so to him, that means she isn't deserving of protection, rather, she's the threat. Is he right? Probably not in so many words. She's a potential threat, but in this case, his attitude towards her is similar to the MCO's opinion of mutants in general.

The difference here is that he's wrong about Sara (so far), but he's generally right about everything else.

Do we like him? no. Will we? No. Have we forgiven him for Halloween? no. Will we? Probably not. Can we... accept his necessity until such time as someone puzzles out how to survive without him? maybe.

Will he try something on Halloween again? I doubt it. I REALLY doubt it. He's not stupid, just obsessive and extreme. He knows he is on thin ice with EVERYONE. Pulling another Halloween would spell his end. They'd give Cait free license to gut him. Hell, if they could find Sara, they might give him to her. That, however, is only if he crosses that line.

Iwasforger03 wrote: Please remember how well he handled Seraphim?

Please remember how well he set up Security on Halloween. He still knowingly aided and abetted murderers.

As to Seraphim, the perfect picture representation of his Christian beliefs, of course he'd treat her well with Totem also on that case.

Iwasforger03 wrote: Englund is an extremist nutbar. He's also a very justified extremist nutbar who, based on the info given in stories that bring him up, one of the only reasons the massive number of class X sites around Whateley haven't swallowed the school. He's seen what's out there folks. He came back alive. Let's not forget that, even as we steer VERY clear of him.

And so he's also credited with Cagliostro's work in cleaning up the Dunwich area as the school was being readied for opening. That was then, this is now.

Maybe it's just me, but "I was trying to murder a different student!" is no excuse for his hijinks.

If noble intent and past good works are indeed sufficient, would you still give him a pass for his actions if he were a priest of the Cult of Kellith?

He's not though mate. He's a protestant pastor. Also, you're passing the yoke of responsibility for his evil deeds onto his students, which is what I was originally objecting to, before I sidetracked myself. You're deflecting from the basic premise.

Whateley can't afford to exist without Englund. He fucked up, and he will face, according to his own religion, extreme punishment in either purgatory or hell for what he did, regardless of what any mortal authority manages. God is real in the Whateley universe. Exactly how much of the bible is true is up for debate, but God is VERY real in WU.

I have no idea what the Cagliostro reference is about.

I do not defend Halloween, I simply understand and even sympathize with his perspective. He's WRONG, but he's the worst kind of wrong, the kind that is so close to being right they can't tell the difference. Englund is the WU incarnation of "He who fights monsters." Everything about his faith and his life experiences insists that what he's doing is worthy, right, and just. Necessary even. The GOO WILL eat earth. Demons, devils, outsiders of all stripes, things that just aren't human? Humanity needs defenders and Englund will defend humanity even at the expense of individuals, which is where we know he's gone completely off the deep end. And even after he went off that deep end, we still circle back to him being necessary. For now.

Circling way back to my original point, before I diverted myself - Englund's young protoge's. He's raising the next crop of monster hunters, people who will go out and keep the rest of us safe from some truly scary and f***** up shit. Are they all right little rays of sunshine? Pft, no. But neither are most of them genuine criminals, and humanity does, in fact, need them. At least, based on what few glimpses we've been given of their little section of the world.

Remember most of what he fights is closer in behavior to the vowelless one Ayla held off than Sara or her father, but all three are GOO, Sara is not representative of her kind, she is an outlier, and that doesn't register with the Rev.

Iwasforger03 wrote: Englund is necessary because they don't have a better option to replace him, not because they like him. They need him and have no means of successfully filling the hole he'd leave behind (suppressing everything around the school that would do all sorts of horrible things if left alone).

Actually, they do. Aside from the Medawhila weres, the Mystic Arts department, Security, and Maintenance all get their hands dirty supressing Class X entities on-campus. Off-campus, the DPA and ARC have been active for decades, and the Knights of the Church for millenia.

I'd not be surprised if Gen2's Father Verraco turns out to be a Knight.

Iwasforger03 wrote: He takes in students with an interest (or a necessity) or an aptitude for the line of work he is in, and trains them, but he doesn't really seem to do so against their will.

He specifically rejects Bladedancer as a candidate for the Atlantean League because he's realized she is the Tao's Handmaid, not his to order around.

Iwasforger03 wrote: Hell, if they could find Sara, they might give him to her. That, however, is only if he crosses that line.

She's not a handy garbage disposal for wayward souls. Besides, that would likely be a concrete violation of Whateley's neutrality - favoring a claim the Kellith has not made, over Those who might have a stronger claim.

To paraphrase Kimble from Red verses Blue "When you fight an enemy for so long you begin to demonize your attackers, to you they are evil, sub human," in the Reverend's he is right with 3 known exceptions behaviorly all of which qualify literally (one in Gen 2), he's been in the fight so long that it is impossible for him to see shades of gray

Iwasforger03 wrote: He's not though mate. He's a protestant pastor.

That isn't an answer to the question I asked that I can accept.

Fine. If he were not a Protestant, but instead a Cultist of Kellith, would you still claim that his actions were still inherently necessary and therefore acceptable?

Iwasforger03 wrote: Also, you're passing the yoke of responsibility for his evil deeds onto his students,

No, I wasn't. Nor will I change what I wrote to match your claim.

Iwasforger03 wrote: I have no idea what the Cagliostro reference is about.

" Mimeographic " is set, in part, in the early days of Whateley, back when Mimeo was a young man.

Iwasforger03 wrote: Whateley can't afford to exist without Englund. He fucked up, and he will face, according to his own religion, extreme punishment in either purgatory or hell for what he did, regardless of what any mortal authority manages. God is real in the Whateley universe. Exactly how much of the bible is true is up for debate, but God is VERY real in WU.

Bear in mind that your God is not the only one that is real in the Whateley Universe, nor is your Bible necessarily the only source of truth.

Nonetheless, Whateley Academy is also set in a United States where "God would have told me to do it" is not a legal defense for murder, or conspiracy to murder.

Iwasforger03 wrote: Circling way back to my original point, before I diverted myself - Englund's young protoge's. He's raising the next crop of monster hunters, people who will go out and keep the rest of us safe from some truly scary and f***** up shit.

That actually has not been shown in the WU. I still think it would be interesting to see how his disciples have turned out, and where they ended up.

The first time it worked because they weren't expecting some sort of Spanish Inquisition, but if the Reverend were to try it again, things would be different. It was kind of Whateley's own little September 11th, they were complacent, now they are prepared.

null0trooper wrote: Fine. If he were not a Protestant, but instead a Cultist of Kellith, would you still claim that his actions were still inherently necessary and therefore acceptable?

...

If noble intent and past good works are indeed sufficient, would you still give him a pass for his actions if he were a priest of the Cult of Kellith?

Umm... Possible False Equivalence or something? Being a Kellithist gives different abilities than being a Christian? Unless Kellithists can make Holy Water too??

Also, given use of "Your God"... Feels a bit close to personal attacks? Did Forger ever say he was a Christian of any stripe?

Maybe move all this to a Englund Thread??

Malady wrote:

null0trooper wrote: Fine. If he were not a Protestant, but instead a Cultist of Kellith, would you still claim that his actions were still inherently necessary and therefore acceptable?

...

If noble intent and past good works are indeed sufficient, would you still give him a pass for his actions if he were a priest of the Cult of Kellith?

Umm... Possible False Equivalence or something? Being a Kellithist gives different abilities than being a Christian? Unless Kellithists can make Holy Water too??

How would it be a False Equivalence except under the unproven assumption that they are inherently unequal unless they both include specifically Christian ritual - in this case, a font for holy water?

Malady wrote: Also, given use of "Your God"... Feels a bit close to personal attacks? Did Forger ever say he was a Christian of any stripe?

"He fucked up, and he will face, according to his own religion, extreme punishment in either purgatory or hell for what he did, regardless of what any mortal authority manages. God is real in the Whateley universe. Exactly how much of the bible is true is up for debate, but God is VERY real in WU."

Which other religions include purgatory and hell as places of punishment that supercede "mortal authority"?

null0trooper wrote:

Malady wrote:

null0trooper wrote: Fine. If [Englund] were not a Protestant, but instead a Cultist of Kellith, would you still claim that his actions were still inherently necessary and therefore acceptable?

Umm... Possible False Equivalence or something? Being a Kellithist gives different abilities than being a Christian? Unless Kellithists can make Holy Water too??

How would it be a False Equivalence except under the unproven assumption that they are inherently unequal unless they both include specifically Christian ritual - in this case, a font for holy water?

Something like False Equivalence. Not sure of the right term here.

Kellithism, even if it's rituals could counter demons like Christianity's, has different rituals... Presumably...

The ability for water to be made anti-demon using Christian Methods makes Christianity an effective tool for anti-demon operations, that may be unparalleled, due to the portability and widespread presence of water on Earth.

A Kellithist trying to do what Englund does may just fail because their rituals / chants / whatever, are too slow or something to counter demons with.

null0trooper wrote:

Malady wrote: Also, given use of "Your God"... Feels a bit close to personal attacks? Did Forger ever say he was a Christian of any stripe?

"He fucked up, and he will face, according to his own religion, extreme punishment in either purgatory or hell for what he did, regardless of what any mortal authority manages. God is real in the Whateley universe. Exactly how much of the bible is true is up for debate, but God is VERY real in WU."

Which other religions include purgatory and hell as places of punishment that supercede "mortal authority"?

Where is Forger saying that Forger's religion is Christianity, instead of Englund's religion being Christianity?

I'm thinking you misinterpreted the possibly pluripotent pronouns.

OH... Also I took "how much of the bible is true" and appended "in the WU"... And I'd think the original quote would be something you'd say whenever you talk about the Bible to anyone, regardless of religion, as there's historical aspects as well, that could be debated, instead of just cosmological ones.

Litttle disappointed nobody jumped on my Spanish Inquisition reference.... I guess nobody expected it.

null0trooper wrote: While Reverend Englund might well belong in the Greybar Hotel, I suspect he'll be back to having his associates and the Goobers carry out a murder or two this year, while he plans other fatal diversions for Security.

That actually begs the question as to how many of the happy little inquisitors he's trained ("Nicely done, Oak. Firm, forceful, with just enough force to get the point across, but not enough to cause permanent injury.")have gone on to commit further crimes in their god's name?

Actually he won't. He will not have the Goobers, most of which wouldn't qualify as members of T.A.P.S. attempt to kill anyone, nor will he do anything to disrupt security. Why do you ask? Because, assuming he survived Cait and the Dragonslayers, every good, bad, and neutral paranormal, and paranormal wannabe in the world would be gunning for him, and no one would raise a hand to stop them.

I'd say Null, that in light of the coments you made after I went to bed, you are taking Englund VERY personally. In light of that, while I firmly disagree with you, I'm also not gonna keep it up with you, because arguing personal feelings will get us nowhere.

Malady, I greatly appreciate your efforts, but I recommend you do not attempt to continue with him on this particular subject.

Lastly: I am, in fact, Catholic. In fact, I'm one of those rare breeds of Catholic who actually knows something about their own faith, with easy access to people who know even more than I do. If I weren't, I doubt I could appreciate or sympathize with the Reverend's point of view. I could say a LOT more about this, but I'm not feeling it. We keep this up and we'll be debating religion proper, which is a banned subject. (isn't it?)



Delarose vs Englund. I'm honestly not sure who would win that. Probably Delarose, depends on in if the implied powers of the Reverend work on non-monsters. I mean, JG could just be messing with us.

As for a memorial service, personally? I would love to see that. It could bring real closure or peace or relief to some of the students traumatized, as well as honoring the dead.

Topic derailed worse than Amtrak. I was just hypothesizing on whether there would be a remembrance of Halloween '06.

Rose Bunny wrote: Topic derailed worse than Amtrak. I was just hypothesizing on whether there would be a remembrance of Halloween '06.

And so in an effort to rerail the topic, I will repost my responses related to that specific point.

Delarose vs Englund. I'm honestly not sure who would win that. Probably Delarose, depends on in if the implied powers of the Reverend work on non-monsters. I mean, JG could just be messing with us.

As for a memorial service, personally? I would love to see that. It could bring real closure or peace or relief to some of the students traumatized, as well as honoring the dead.

Caitlin would have had a full year to reflect on it.

And it would scare the freshlings into knowing that even at Whateley, you are not totally safe.

Re touchy subjects, I give you a couple of probably mis-remembered quotes from old Peanuts strips (both quotes are from Linus):

"I learned that are three subjects that you shouldn't argue: religion, politics and the Great Pumpkin."
and
"Everybody has their own Great Pumpkin."

There WAS a memorial service already... it wasn't specific to Halloween but was inclusive of ALL deaths over the course of the year.

Sooo... while there may be something brief said and there might be additional counseling available for students and faculty at that time... There probably won't be a gathering or assembly to address the remembrance of the attack.

First anniversaries of major events are always tough, I'm sure people here remember how it was on 9/11/02

I've indirectly put forward my thoughts about what Halloween will eventually mean to the Whateley community (See Homcoming, 2026 in the Independent Fiction section). In that work, it is indicated that the Hooligans chose to remember their loss with an informal parkour jam in remembrance of Eric Mahren. Given the addition of the dragon slayers to the Whateley cast of characters, this is feeling more plausible. I would guess that everyone on campus will remember things in their own way, with the exception of the first years who would probably be in the dark until someone fills them in.

Rose Bunny wrote: Topic derailed worse than Amtrak. I was just hypothesizing on whether there would be a remembrance of Halloween '06.

"There would probably be one during the Halloween party. Kinda like we will not be scared. We will stand and play/party in remembrance of you.
Now, someone pull Sun Goku out of the punchbowl. Pigsy help Sandy out.
Where's that priest when you need him. Oh great he sampled the punch.
Shine you were told to say away from the punchbowl. Shine. Shine where are you? Has anyone seen shine?"
"I think he was heading off into the woods somewhere with Absinthe."
Face palm.

I think you will get several different things going for memorials.

First; since no students died, a student based event is not likely to be that big.

Second; Security is likely to have something set up, they took the brunt of the deaths.

Third; The Range Crew. They are likely to have a memorial of some sort, with the Dragonslayers, Grunts, Hooligans, and a few others.

Fourth; The Hooligans would probably have a run in Eric's memory, timed to end as everyone is headed in for breakfast to create the most chaos.

Fifth; Some students are likely to have their own little memorials, or join others, especially if they worked closely with a group that suffered more than others. (Pristine is likely to show up at the Security Memorial and end up having a talk with Delarose.)

Sixth; Costumes are likely to be a lot more combat effective.

I complete agree about Pristine, i think that incident really jumpstarted alot of things, mostly good in the long run, for her. She'd be there if somebody had a memorial for security. She witnessed most of it with them.