Question About the 'Mechanics' of some in-universe stuff

Hello WA, and (slightly late (unless you celebrate the Chinese version)) Happy New Year!!! Anyway, I've started this thread to discuss how some of the various stuff (while ignoring the discussion about devisor logic) which crops up in various stories. Now, before anyone says anything, this IS a thread about in-universe concepts, and therefore the fact that 'it's a story' shouldn't be used as a explanation. To start this thread off, I want to ask three questions about three different things from the WA universe, relating to how they would possibly function (in depth):

1. Arena 99's field mechanism: The fact is that the arena is not the Holodeck. Which is sad. But, it is stated to use raised platforms to create buildings. Problem is, you can't mechanically create interiors in this way, unless it has a open roof. The walls are OK, but to have a roof, you'd have to support it underneath. And since everything comes out of the floor, you can't have a interior if you have a roof, as the 'tiles' would be filling the interior. As well as this, getting all the dressings into the room to set up simulations in the time frame specified for the startup is damm near impossible. Even if you do a Portal-esque method of 'panels' (Cave Johnson Here!!! Heh.), you still can't create a interior. Even if it's a devise, they still have to obey SOME rules, such as putting things in place. Plus, if you can create walls, there can't be levitating tiles, as there has to be a solid wall that rises up with the top. So how does it work??

2. The sensor system is advanced enough to detect the locations of students anywhere on the campus, but isn't able to detect students being abducted by other students (like in the first Camilla story). Shouldn't it be able to detect a group of people in someone else's room, and then those people leading said person past security cameras, and to a obscure location??? And shouldn't the cameras show said students dragging said victim behind like a rag doll???

3. How on earth does Whateley get away with the mayhem and student injury that happens on campus. You'd think that the district authorities would be shutting the school down. Also: Duty of Care. Almost NO teacher seems to follow the basic tenant of teaching: you are responsible for the students under your care. During the 2nd Boston Brawl, Mrs Grimes seems to just completely ignore her legal duty as a teacher, and just lets her charges go rushing into battle with a dangerous supervillian. I'm pretty sure that's illegal, even in America. I mean, she should at least have told them to stay where they were, and not do anything. Plus, Captain Tilley is technically...actually, that's unknown. What legal right does he have to endanger children. Carson calls this out when Team Kimba come back from BB1, and apparently his superiors didn't question the fact that he let children become Boston Metropolitan Auxiliaries. Shouldn't they revoke that after the hurrah had died down?? Also, on that matter, why the hell did Team Kimba instantly become recognisable to EVERYONE, after they SHOULD have been on the evening news. They fought a supervillian in front of the public, without any disguise, and literally none of their friends or family contacted them to ask what the Gorram Frack they were doing fighting in Boston???

CrazyMinh wrote: 1. Arena 99's field mechanism: The fact is that the arena is not the Holodeck.

It is NOT a holodeck. Remember this.

CrazyMinh wrote: But, it is stated to use raised platforms to create buildings. Problem is, you can't mechanically create interiors in this way, unless it has a open roof.

Yes, interiors with walls and doors and ceilings and floors can indeed be moved up and down without an open roof, otherwise the interiors of elevators would get quite wet as rain poured down the open elevator shafts. Instead of a pulley system mounted above the individual stage block to pull the section up, it is more likely that there is a hydraulic system beneath the section that pushes it up.

Exactly how many stories of framework can be accomodated into the storage and staging space under the Arena, is up to the non-existant canon cabal, but I'd guess at least 4-5.

The more collateral damage the students create, the longer the time needed to fix the stage dressing (This is discussed in some of the combat final stories), some of which is sure to be illusion in addition to stage dressing.

CrazyMinh wrote: 2. The sensor system is advanced enough to detect the locations of students anywhere on the campus, but isn't able to detect students being abducted by other students (like in the first Camilla story).

No. It isn't.

There is a finite amount of funding available for deploying a finite number of discrete sensors feeding back a significant amount of data over a finite data network to be analyzed and monitored by a finite number of security personnel. Those sensors, when they aren't being tampered with by curious or malingering teenagers are still subject to breaking down. The network is also capable of partial failures, as is any data processing and storage software. Then there is the possibility that the person paging through the video feeds may be having a bad day, or his supervisor just walked up to start talking at him.

Also, a significant portion of the sensor network and data collection is explicitly stated to be the work of devisors and other students. As such, it is ALL at more risk of failure than an a system providing equivalent capability under proven engineering standards (One which, would be so expensive that the school would have to do without.)

CrazyMinh wrote: Shouldn't it be able to detect a group of people in someone else's room, and then those people leading said person past security cameras, and to a obscure location???

No. Now you are talking about installing video cameras throughout bathrooms and dorm rooms, because visual ID is going to be your best failback when someone wraps their own student ID cards in aluminum foil while using someone else's.

CrazyMinh wrote: And shouldn't the cameras show said students dragging said victim behind like a rag doll???

Cameras only work on events happening in front of them, and as long as they are working properly. This has been brought up in numerous stories.


As to #3, I will only state that some of your objections would be more relevant to a story set in Australia than one largely set on Federally-designated tribal lands in the United States.

#3 This is an alternate reality, part of that is plainly stated everywhere, and part of it is assumed. A lot of exemplars have a Galahad complex or syndrome, so they are sort of like Marines, that is they hear a fight and run to it. No amount of Ms Grimes or anyone else telling them not to will stop them. Mrs Carson addresses this with Kayda and Loophole. There are other syndromes, some like Jobe have a 'god' complex, others drick out and I'm sure that when one is bent toward crime there are various complexes to describe the types of villains that they might emulate. Indeed one major one is the Dark Phoenix, where insanity or whatever makes your team mate suddenly your enemy or where the seemingly innocent person like Jade is actually a super villain. So don't try to hard to fit the stories into our frame of reference, after all things are different! Magic is real! Psychic phenomena is a proven fact! And then there is the whole meta-human thing where mutations are positive and fecund!

#3 There are no District Authorities. It is a private school that is only sort of in the US. And as was seen recently in California private schools can get away eith a lot of stuff.

Boston Brawln 2 has some weird things going on, but since TK are LEOs within Boston, Mrs. Grimes isn't on the hook. The bigger problem is the school not sending an adult with Silver. For BB2, Fey had spells on the costumes preventing clear photos.

Time magazine: "How do the Heisenberg compensators work?"
Michael Okuda: "They work just fine, thank you."

You're reading too much into some things. While five people might be interested in the interlocking system of the floor tiles that allow them lock together like the leaves of an expanding table, or the telescoping pole system at each corner of a one foot square tile that allows it to raise and lower the tile to create a building outline and using the stacked additional tiles under it to create floors in the 'building', not many would. And, even though Elrod is a bonafide rocket scientist, none of us are Engineers.

And if we were engineers, we would be out inventing this stuff instead of writing about it. Does anybody really want that?

So, just enjoy the story and if your brain grinds between shifting mental gears, just tell it, "It's Science!" or "It's Magic!" as appropriate.

As for #3, it has been heavily hinted and implied that Mrs. Carson, the board, and the rest of the staff are very deliberately allowing their charges to make "mistakes" within reason, because people, and especially teens and young adults, learn best from their mistakes and failures. But they show equal ferociousness when that line is crossed. The hooligans, Hamper and Damper (after the Murphy/Tansy fight), and since you mentioned Ms. Grimes, going all out to protect TLW when they were in actual real danger.

Administration, Security, the teaching staff, and Doyle have a very specific set of guidelines that hasn't been conveyed to the readers explicitly. But the reasons behind it have. There are hints that Security deliberately delays their response completely on purpose, but, outside of some external influence (e.g. cameras disabled) they pretty much always show up right at the moment things get a little bit too serious. Some of the students have noticed this pattern.

The world is very dangerous and hostile to mutants, regardless of what path in life they take after leaving Whateley. The Goodkinds, the Knights of Purity, the MCO, entire governments, cults, mad scientists, and even just regular prejudiced folks.

Would they have preferred to keep Ayla from having to battle a true blue demon? Absolutely! Look at the response once they found what Hekate and Sebastiano had done or attempted to do to their classmates. Or the strange way the staff realized they would have to help Kerry become more assertive.

Take a look at the very proactive approach Carson has taken with Kayda and Lanie, or Hartford with Lanie and Tansy. The reasons behind those have been spelled out.

Whateley accepts and clearly delays expelling bullies. The entire cottage system is set up to mellow out the extremes in views and personality among the student body, or to provide nurturing spaces for those that need them. The true rotten apples among the student body are given exactly enough rope to hang themselves with, while the redeemable ones expand their horizons and grow as individuals. The meek become bold and the weak find their niche. All the while learning how to survive once they are truly on their own.

#1.

Who says they are solid blocks?


Who says they don't have a large collection of prefabs on wheels that can be rolled/driven/hell teleported to the appropriate platform as needed then raised up and dressed with hard light holograms?

Regarding bullies and fighting on campus etc...

The impression left by a ton of the stories is that Whateley Academy has at its heart one goal: teach the kids how to survive. The world is harsh to mutants and magical folk: supervillains are real, the public backlash is real, prejudices of the sort that have historically led to genocide are real.

In this regard the actions of the staff are akin to Ender's Game - the kids need to learn to stand on their own and not rely on or expect help coming from on high. In the 'real world' of the WU, if they can't hack it... they will likely either die or be horribly abused. Plenty of stories show how this can and will happen. Finding the balance between keeping them safe and guiding them through painful life lessons is and always will be difficult.

What might be an interesting story idea is showing the effect of this kind of policy on the teachers themselves - because it can't be easy to let even the 'minor' things go as instructive experience without intervening. The potential guilt there could be massive and I bet over the years there were staff members unable to deal with it. It'd be fun to run with that concept in my own What IF, but I think there's too much else going on to give it proper focus - though the adult perspective of the core of the intent is emphasized.

Maybe it could be something for Imp to address? (hint hint Morpheus! )

JG wrote: When the kids go out into the real world as superhuman mutants...

Who will protect them when they are in trouble, scared and in over their heads?

Who can they count on to step up for them?

I think you probably summed up the philosophy behind a lot of what the school does in this. Indeed some of the punish everyone involved in a fight or the ones who are new, or don't usually wear their gear, because if you don't usually wear your gear and you were wearing it and got in a fight, well you must have been looking for a fight...

Do you know just how many people running around on campus could have decided to frame your attacker just because it amused them? We ARE talking about teenagers, for the most part.

And as far as having the right gear on hand goes - didn't we point out in First Assembly that there are always people out there gunning for you? Be prepared, ferchrissakes!


How many times did Phase get blind-sided because he wasn't paranoid enough?

How many times has a student been reprimanded for not having their equipment and holdouts on them?

There's a reason that the combat finals specify that a student can only carry the equipment they usually have on them. When they've graduated, and are in college or working as an insurance claims adjuster or whatever, there won't be anyone around to protect them because they left their Distortion Amplifier Wave Module Projector on their nightstand.

Yeah. It really runs the gamut of potential threats emulated at Whateley. It's subtly encouraging the students to learn how to deal with a great many things with the tools at hand. Whether it be dealing with supervillains or other powered individuals interested in you (either as a nemesis to your hero/villain, or simply interested in an inherent trait such as the Sidhe, or Silver) - as represented by the dynamics in and around bullies and groups such as the Capes/Masterminds. Or the realities of a paramilitary organisation or a simple police force of non-powered individuals with access to deadly firepower and the potential of the law backing them up (or being twisted to their own ends) - much like Whateley Security, Platoon Six and all.

Most don't realise it, but the students are encouraged to handle it themselves however they can. Confrontations in situations where there won't be repercussions for them, social maneouvering, pranks and more. Not to mention all the friends and connections that can be made while attending the school that will be valuable later on - whether it be safety in numbers or the favour of movers and shakers. It's all to set them up with a life after Whateley that won't just leave them at the mercy of the KoP or MCO or even DPA if they misstep.

E. E. Nalley wrote: Time magazine: "How do the Heisenberg compensators work?"
Michael Okuda: "They work just fine, thank you."

You're reading too much into some things. While five people might be interested in the interlocking system of the floor tiles that allow them lock together like the leaves of an expanding table, or the telescoping pole system at each corner of a one foot square tile that allows it to raise and lower the tile to create a building outline and using the stacked additional tiles under it to create floors in the 'building', not many would. And, even though Elrod is a bonafide rocket scientist, none of us are Engineers.

And if we were engineers, we would be out inventing this stuff instead of writing about it. Does anybody really want that?

So, just enjoy the story and if your brain grinds between shifting mental gears, just tell it, "It's Science!" or "It's Magic!" as appropriate.

And some of the people kibitzing on the sidelines ARE engineers, and we are trying to work out how we can build the things described here.

No. not the devisor-ish stuff. ( We wish...)

But the gadgeteerishness? Hell, Yeah!

An interesting example of modular building designs can be found here, https://www.openbuildinginstitute.org/

Well, despite EE, some of us are engineers (retired, but you never resign from geekdom..)
Thing is, the esoteric details of stuff really is only of riveting detail to other engineers - granted we can go on about it (oh, and argue about it of course!) for ages. but you'd get seriously bored.
Also, it isn't relevant to the story, really.

Now if you want to start talking about food.. (yes, another topic worryingly interesting to engineers, as is beer) that's another matter.

E. E. Nalley wrote: Time magazine: "How do the Heisenberg compensators work?"
Michael Okuda: "They work just fine, thank you."

... And, even though Elrod is a bonafide rocket scientist, none of us are Engineers.

Um - my diploma (the last one) says Doctor of Philosophy of Electrical Engineering.

So your comment is just slightly in error.

Be glad Nomad isn't here.

That is one hell of a big and fast 3D printer.

Astrodragon wrote: Well, despite EE, some of us are engineers (retired, but you never resign from geekdom..)
Thing is, the esoteric details of stuff really is only of riveting detail to other engineers - granted we can go on about it (oh, and argue about it of course!) for ages. but you'd get seriously bored.
Also, it isn't relevant to the story, really.

Now if you want to start talking about food.. (yes, another topic worryingly interesting to engineers, as is beer) that's another matter.

Some where I should have the address of a website that was written by someone who claimed that beer was actually the foundation of civilization, and the driver of progress for all of human history.

Anne wrote:

Astrodragon wrote: Well, despite EE, some of us are engineers (retired, but you never resign from geekdom..)
Thing is, the esoteric details of stuff really is only of riveting detail to other engineers - granted we can go on about it (oh, and argue about it of course!) for ages. but you'd get seriously bored.
Also, it isn't relevant to the story, really.

Now if you want to start talking about food.. (yes, another topic worryingly interesting to engineers, as is beer) that's another matter.

Some where I should have the address of a website that was written by someone who claimed that beer was actually the foundation of civilization, and the driver of progress for all of human history.

Reminds me of one verse of a song from my old college

"the engineers of Peter the Great, who was a Russian Tsar
when remodeling the castle put the throne room in a bar.
They lined the halls with vodka, rum, and forty kinds of beers
and advances the Russian culture by a hundred and forty years."

Anne wrote: Some where I should have the address of a website that was written by someone who claimed that beer was actually the foundation of civilization, and the driver of progress for all of human history.

I've either seen that website, or a TV show on how Beer advanced civilization.

I really wish I could find that now. It started with farming, farming happened because beer (which led to land ownership etc) and moved right on up through the invention of the assembly line and refrigeration. The assembly line was first employed for bottling beer... And well refrigeration drove the whole lagering of beer movement in the USA or was it that Lagering beer drove refrigeration. I think it said the second was true... all sorts of interesting facts like how long ago the first beer that they were certain was deliberately brewed happened, and interesting how it did seem to drive forward villages, and yes intensive agriculture that hadn't been happening before.

Googling "beer civilization "assembly line"" led me to a blog post on the documentary: "How Beer Saved the World".

www.popsonhops.com/how-beer-saved-the-world/

Also, one of the oldest known pieces of writing is a cuneiform table- with a recipe for Beer.

It is also believed that the first temples were, in fact, bars, and the first priestesses were barmaids

gimme that Old Time Religion!

That's the one I saw Malady. Perhaps the last educational thing on Discovery.

So sort of how porn drive innovation on the internet.

konzill wrote: So sort of how porn drive innovation on the internet.

I thought Al Gore did that right after he invented the AlGorethm^TM.

Malady wrote: Googling "beer civilization "assembly line"" led me to a blog post on the documentary: "How Beer Saved the World".

www.popsonhops.com/how-beer-saved-the-world/

That isn't the article I saw, but that is definitely the trailer that I saw! Thank you!

Seriously? we went from mechanics to beer??? Guys, come on!!! Also, I just got my degree as a engineer, and I still don't drink any alcohol. The stereotype that engineers drink beer is rubbish. We just eat pot noodles. Pot noodles are engineer food.

EDIT: Oh, and copious amounts of coffee. Well, tea for me. I don't drink that vile stuff.

My sister is an engineer, she does not go for beer. Me, I was a machinists mate/engineering laboratory technician but opted to go in a different direction on my degree (social science and sociology). I will drink beer, I even make my own (mainly because most of the stuff out there is over hopped). Now coffee, that is another matter. I don't trust people that like decaf... I like my coffee with caffeine and to be so thick you can eat it like a popsicle.

CrazyMinh wrote: Seriously? we went from mechanics to beer??? Guys, come on!!! Also, I just got my degree as a engineer, and I still don't drink any alcohol. The stereotype that engineers drink beer is rubbish. We just eat pot noodles. Pot noodles are engineer food.

EDIT: Oh, and copious amounts of coffee. Well, tea for me. I don't drink that vile stuff.

Someone mentioned food and beer WRT engineering, I recalled that someone had posited that without beer engineering wouldn't exist because beer drives civilization. How true that is I don't know, but certainly we can find evidence of it in all areas where people built permanent shelters. So did the beer come first or the houses? Or is it a sort of Chicken and Egg thing where they both appear necessary and it is a philosophical argument akin to how many demons can dance on the point of a pin. It doesn't matter, it won't change the world and worrying about it keeps you from enjoying the rest of life.
I'm not a beer drinker, not much for alcohol, If I open a bottle I'm liable to find myself in the county jail! After a binge... Or looking at the wrong side of daisies.

MM2ss wrote: My sister is an engineer, she does not go for beer. Me, I was a machinists mate/engineering laboratory technician but opted to go in a different direction on my degree (social science and sociology). I will drink beer, I even make my own (mainly because most of the stuff out there is over hopped). Now coffee, that is another matter. I don't trust people that like decaf... I like my coffee with caffeine and to be so thick you can eat it like a popsicle.

I think you mis-spelled "under-hopped", assuming that hops had much of anything to do with the majority of American beers. HTH

At my former employment, decaf was only made for visitors and more prominently marked than most lab reagents.

null0trooper wrote: I think you mis-spelled "under-hopped", assuming that hops had much of anything to do with the majority of American beers. HTH

At my former employment, decaf was only made for visitors and more prominently marked than most lab reagents.

I don't drink stale water (bud, coors, etc.). That stuff is not beer.

I will also note that the addition of hops to beer is a comparatively new concept in the history of beer. Hopless beers have a roughly 8,000 year lead on beer containing hops. As I recall, the oldest archaeological evidence of beer goes back 9,000 years. The oldest evidence of hops in beer dates to 736 AD...in France. A place where they should have stayed focused on wine and later, cognac/brandy. One might even recall that laws were passed to prevent brewers from adulterating ale with hops back in the day. For a more humorous and yet sad account, one may even recall that during the reign of Henry VIII had a commander of his troops in Picardy France filing a complaint about a shortage of ale and his troops being forced to consume hopped beer for ten days (oh the horror).

In this era of "craft" beers, I seem to be finding more and more beers loaded with enough hops to ship it to India, back here and then to India yet again. People should learn once more the fin art of using gruit in beer. Or at least to restrain themselves, not every beer needs to be ready to go on a sailing ship to India.

Until then, I will make my own and buy the few I have found to be appealing. For those who like a more traditional stout, I'd suggest Bell's double cream stout and Black Warrior's old tavern scotch ale. Both have a good taste and texture that centers on the beer, not on the preservative (those dang hops).

Lastly, the civilization thing... Beer is at least 9,000 years old. It thus predates the Mesopotamian civilization, which is normally considered the "oldest" complex civilization. However, the evidence of agriculture predates the evidence of beer by approximately 1,000 years. So essentially, people settled down to farm, then made beer, some 1,000 years after that they created political entities that we would identify as states (in the sense of countries/nations). You could argue the point either way.

If you have about an hour there is a documentary called How Beer Saved The World . Its pretty lighthearted but interesting at the same time.

I seem to have lost my mind...the post about "How Beer Saved The World" reminded me instead of a really old song...which is now stuck in my head.

"We'll drink a drink a drink.
To lily the pink the pink the pink.
The saviour of our human race.
For she invented, medicinal compound.
Most efficacious in every case."

So, go find it, it might be on youtube...then you too can have it stuck in your head. I suggest the version by the Irish Rovers.

Nah, beer, beer, beer, is bad enough to get stuck in my head!

B double E double R U N
BEERRUN
BEERRUN
B double E double R U N
BEERRUN
BEERRUN

you're welcome

Actually, the egg came before the chicken. True fact. In explanation, chickens are the descendants of dinosaurs. What do you think happens with evolution??? the Chicken Randomly showed up from nowhere??? Dinosaurs layed the eggs, one day (through genetic mutation due to evolutionary advantage and cell division), the link between chickens and dinosaurs hatched. All that I know from my high school days, which were not that long ago for me. America may have the best industry, but we Australians have the better education. Statistically, that is.

P.S. I just mentioned the link between cellular mutation and evolution, on the forums of a site with stories about mutation, which has a plot element that mutants are the new species of man. Khaless, I love these stories. (Anyone??? Anyone???)

I know you are correct about egg before chicken but it can be somewhat vexing, because a viable mutation is not the usual case, at least not one that deviates far from its parent stock. Genetic stock to be viable, similar to computer programs must be backward compatible. In life this means that change takes a long time to manifest, also it can mean that a lot of not necessarily terribly positive things get passed down through generations, like hemophilia.

MM2ss wrote: Now coffee, that is another matter. I don't trust people that like decaf... I like my coffee with caffeine and to be so thick you can eat it like a popsicle.

Spread on my toast for breakfast.

Like another layer of Marmite.

Spreadable coffee? You didn't cook enough water out of it.

Yeah, ya gotta be able to stick a fork in it and have it stand up... That is until it melts!

MM2ss wrote: Spreadable coffee? You didn't cook enough water out of it.

Ah, just chew on the coffee beans already and cut out the middleman.

Sir Lee wrote:

MM2ss wrote: Spreadable coffee? You didn't cook enough water out of it.

Ah, just chew on the coffee beans already and cut out the middleman.

Well there is always that option to be sure!

We did that on the boat when the evaporator went down for three weeks... It does work, but getting the pieces out of your teeth is a pain.

Actually, that's how the Ethiopians, who first cultivated Coffee, did it. They chewed the dried cherries. The Arabs found out about it from Ethiopian scribes, and added the whole 'brewing' element.

Bek D Corbin wrote: Actually, that's how the Ethiopians, who first cultivated Coffee, did it. They chewed the dried cherries. The Arabs found out about it from Ethiopian scribes, and added the whole 'brewing' element.

See? Sometimes alchemy IS useful!