Question Let's speculate on 'karma'-based magic?

Let's speculate on 'karma'-based magic?

Malady wrote: Hmm... I'm gonna bet that karma-related spells work somewhat like Fairy Law , imposing your personal karma system onto others, and reading the history from Ashakic Records to decide how to dole out damage?

Speculation: The "laws of magic" are less "laws of physics" and more "social agreements". Moreoever, these are agreements involving the spirits that exist and have banded together for mutual survival and benefit.

As this relates to karma-based magic: The person casting the spell is petitioning a court of spirits that their target has performed something worthy of blessing or punishment, as well as what blessing or punishment they'd suggest be placed upon them. If the spirits agree that it is appropriate, they create the spell effect as desired and maintain it for as long as necessary. If they disagree, they'll give a weakened version, an alternate effect, or even curse the petitioner for bringing something unworthy to them. No matter what, though, they'll take all of that lovely essence as payment for hearing them out.

Revenge spells are illegal for two reasons: One, the court systems tend to detest people going around them in any way because that lessens their own power. Two, spirits aren't humans. They think differently from humans. What they consider a reasonable course of action will often conflict heavily with what a human thinks. With them taking things out on a person threefold, "cruel and unusual" could easily come into play very rapidly.

Naomi wrote: Speculation: The "laws of magic" are less "laws of physics" and more "social agreements". Moreoever, these are agreements involving the spirits that exist and have banded together for mutual survival and benefit.

As this relates to karma-based magic: The person casting the spell is petitioning a court of spirits that their target has performed something worthy of blessing or punishment, as well as what blessing or punishment they'd suggest be placed upon them. If the spirits agree that it is appropriate, they create the spell effect as desired and maintain it for as long as necessary. If they disagree, they'll give a weakened version, an alternate effect, or even curse the petitioner for bringing something unworthy to them. No matter what, though, they'll take all of that lovely essence as payment for hearing them out.

I think karma based magic is more akin to the current Wicca belief, There is a price to pay for every use of power, positive uses grant a benefit/reward to the spell caster while negative uses tend to have punishments.

Naomi wrote: Revenge spells are illegal for two reasons: One, the court systems tend to detest people going around them in any way because that lessens their own power. Two, spirits aren't humans. They think differently from humans. What they consider a reasonable course of action will often conflict heavily with what a human thinks. With them taking things out on a person threefold, "cruel and unusual" could easily come into play very rapidly.

Within the W.U. it is less spirits than the Tao that would be exacting the price / punishment / revenge.

Dawnfyre wrote: I think karma based magic is more akin to the current Wicca belief, There is a price to pay for every use of power, positive uses grant a benefit/reward to the spell caster while negative uses tend to have punishments.

Fundamentally it's the same issue, isn't it? That view is just that it's innate to the use of magic itself (or even to all actions, ever) instead of something imposed by outside entities. Though given that the rule of three didn't exist (or at least wasn't known) in the distant past, that would require the laws of magic themselves to be shifting for some reason.

Dawnfyre wrote: Within the W.U. it is less spirits than the Tao that would be exacting the price / punishment / revenge.

Doesn't really fit the Whateley-verse's Tao's MO, I don't think; justice/revenge/karma doesn't encourage balance between good and evil or whatever else it wants to be "balanced".

Personally, I think the Tao is just some extra-dimensional deity-class entity that really needs to be banished or annihilated because it has far overstayed its welcome.

Naomi wrote:

Dawnfyre wrote: I think karma based magic is more akin to the current Wicca belief, There is a price to pay for every use of power, positive uses grant a benefit/reward to the spell caster while negative uses tend to have punishments.

Fundamentally it's the same issue, isn't it? That view is just that it's innate to the use of magic itself (or even to all actions, ever) instead of something imposed by outside entities. Though given that the rule of three didn't exist (or at least wasn't known) in the distant past, that would require the laws of magic themselves to be shifting for some reason.

The Laws have shifted since the Sundering, Look behind the spoiler here.

Naomi wrote:

Dawnfyre wrote: Within the W.U. it is less spirits than the Tao that would be exacting the price / punishment / revenge.

Doesn't really fit the Whateley-verse's Tao's MO, I don't think; justice/revenge/karma doesn't encourage balance between good and evil or whatever else it wants to be "balanced".

Personally, I think the Tao is just some extra-dimensional deity-class entity that really needs to be banished or annihilated because it has far overstayed its welcome.

That's my Fanon too. I'm gonna try to kill it, whenever I get all this magic stuff to work for my crossover...

Malady wrote: The Laws have shifted since the Sundering, Look behind the spoiler here.

Sorry; I worded that poorly. Yes, regardless of reason you believe it is known that the Laws of Magic (or at least the KNOWN Laws of Magic) have changed over time and that must be reconciled in some way. I think that the agreements between spirits (who casters commonly hire for their services) changing with time is more likely, and more appealing, than the fundamental Laws of Magic shifting over time. It's entirely a personal thing.

Naomi wrote: Doesn't really fit the Whateley-verse's Tao's MO, I don't think; justice/revenge/karma doesn't encourage balance between good and evil or whatever else it wants to be "balanced".

This has come up before. A common Western misconception of Taoism (and Heather has backed me up on this) is that it aims for a balance between "good" and "evil."

But the thing is, the idea that in any pairing of opposites one is intrinsically "good" and the other "evil" is not a Taoist concept; it's a Abrahamic concept, descended from Zoroastrism.

The "opposites" Taoism is concerned about are more like complementary concepts -- male/female, light/dark, hot/cold, order/chaos. But Taoism does take a position in favor of good; it's just that it defines good as the result of balance between such opposites, and evil as their imbalance.

And indeed, there are numerous examples of the evils of extremes on either side, and the virtues of finding a happy medium -- starting with the Earth's orbit around the Sun, which is known among astronomers as the "Goldilocks zone" -- neither too hot nor too cold to hinder development of life. For extremes of Order and Chaos, look at North Korea and Somalia respectively -- does anybody rational want either?

The thing about the Whateley Tao is that we don't really understand its perspective -- it's just too broad and too long-term for the human mind. Yes, it is an Omniscient Morality License , with all the issues the TVTropes article lists. But it is not a "balance good and evil" thing.

Sir Lee wrote: Snip...

Thank you! ... I really wonder how I missed all that...

At least now, if I diverge from canon, it won't be out of ignorance!

So, the Tao's pretty much good, but now, if it has a sense of self-preservation in addition to wanting to keep the balance, my characters are gonna come in contact with it.

Any speculation on how karma magic works, Sir Lee? Or are you a 2nd Gen Author? I don't really follow that stuff...

Malady wrote:

Sir Lee wrote: Snip...

Thank you! ... I really wonder how I missed all that...

At least now, if I diverge from canon, it won't be out of ignorance!

So, the Tao's pretty much good, but now, if it has a sense of self-preservation in addition to wanting to keep the balance, my characters are gonna come in contact with it.

Any speculation on how karma magic works, Sir Lee? Or are you a 2nd Gen Author? I don't really follow that stuff...

And at what point does my head explode as I try to bring all of this to sense? Before I get drunk or after so I don't feel the headache in the morning.

I'm really interested on where those that came up with the magic side brought it all together.

Malady wrote:

Sir Lee wrote: Snip...

Thank you! ... I really wonder how I missed all that...

At least now, if I diverge from canon, it won't be out of ignorance!

So, the Tao's pretty much good, but now, if it has a sense of self-preservation in addition to wanting to keep the balance, my characters are gonna come in contact with it.

Any speculation on how karma magic works, Sir Lee? Or are you a 2nd Gen Author? I don't really follow that stuff...

Actually I was not talking so much about the Whateley Tao but rather about the philosophy of Taoism in general. But, as I mentioned, Heather has backed me up on my interpretation, so you may assume that that's pretty much how the Tao works in Whateley (with the minor difference that the Whateley Tao is rather "activist")

(Side note: I'm quite non-religious, but I have a mild interest in Philosophy. I find the different worldviews of the different religions fascinating, and it really bugs me when I see attempts to strong-arm one worldview into the framework of another -- I think that is missing the point entirely.)

Regarding karma... from a real-world perspective, I'm not even sure that it's an appropriate nomenclature for the sort of thing we are seeing at Whateley, such as the "threefold returns" thing. My understanding of karma under the dharmic religions (Hinduism, Buddhism) is that it's a bit of a long-term thing -- you don't get punished/rewarded by your deeds in this life, but in the next one. Sorta like the Christian concept of sin and afterlife, only it is in another life in this plane. I mean, Christians don't really expect sinners to be struck by lightning, but they are assured that there will be a punishment after death.

(Which is what makes Buddhism fascinating to me, too -- it is not a "let's work at getting a better hand at the next round of the game" philosophy, it's a "let's quit this rigged game outright" thing. Quite subversive in a way.)

Anyway, getting back on the subject, the threefold-revenge thing is more of a Celtic tradition as far as I know, so there is probably a Celtic term more appropriate than "karma".

Personally, I don't think that the Tao of the Whateley-verse is more than remotely connected to actual Taoism. Theory: An extradimensional entity somehow arrived in this dimension (perhaps it was summoned by actual taoists, or something) and pretended to be the Tao of the philosophy in order to advance its own agenda that at least looked superficially similar. It kept the differences subtle until those who could actually tell the difference were dead (and those who noticed beforehand received "accidents" or were "threats to the Balance") and wiped away historical records so that it would be harder to figure out what actually happened. End result? People are convinced that this alien entity is a fundamental force of the universe and that there is absolutely no point in opposing it.

And, yeah, "karma" isn't a particularly good word for it, though the two concepts could be merged together if you really wanted to. (Magic allows for karmic weight to be "called due" in this life instead of the next, for example)

Naomi wrote: Personally, I don't think that the Tao of the Whateley-verse is more than remotely connected to actual Taoism. Theory: An extradimensional entity somehow arrived in this dimension (perhaps it was summoned by actual taoists, or something) and pretended to be the Tao of the philosophy in order to advance its own agenda that at least looked superficially similar. It kept the differences subtle until those who could actually tell the difference were dead (and those who noticed beforehand received "accidents" or were "threats to the Balance") and wiped away historical records so that it would be harder to figure out what actually happened. End result? People are convinced that this alien entity is a fundamental force of the universe and that there is absolutely no point in opposing it.

And, yeah, "karma" isn't a particularly good word for it, though the two concepts could be merged together if you really wanted to. (Magic allows for karmic weight to be "called due" in this life instead of the next, for example)

OMG! Do you mind if I use that?

Malady wrote:

Naomi wrote: Personally, I don't think that the Tao of the Whateley-verse is more than remotely connected to actual Taoism. Theory: An extradimensional entity somehow arrived in this dimension (perhaps it was summoned by actual taoists, or something) and pretended to be the Tao of the philosophy in order to advance its own agenda that at least looked superficially similar. It kept the differences subtle until those who could actually tell the difference were dead (and those who noticed beforehand received "accidents" or were "threats to the Balance") and wiped away historical records so that it would be harder to figure out what actually happened. End result? People are convinced that this alien entity is a fundamental force of the universe and that there is absolutely no point in opposing it.

And, yeah, "karma" isn't a particularly good word for it, though the two concepts could be merged together if you really wanted to. (Magic allows for karmic weight to be "called due" in this life instead of the next, for example)

OMG! Do you mind if I use that?

*Smiles* Please feel free.

One method i've been experimenting with, is the use of Karmic spells, where the spell that is being cast is the one where the caster wants to get a three-fold-return being sent back to themselves.

Never cast anything on someone that you wouldn't use on yourself first...

Sudden thought: Is there the magical equivalent of gadgeteers and devisor's in WU?

Mister D wrote: One method i've been experimenting with, is the use of Karmic spells, where the spell that is being cast is the one where the caster wants to get a three-fold-return being sent back to themselves.

Never cast anything on someone that you wouldn't use on yourself first...

Interesting...

Mister D wrote: Sudden thought: Is there the magical equivalent of gadgeteers and devisor's in WU?

So, people who instinctively understand Magic, and those who break the Laws of Magic, and/or impose new Laws, for their own magic?

D'Oh! It's sounds daft when you say it like that...

It's that argument whether Schimmelhorn engineers are using magic or science.

"I reject your reality and impose my own!"

Which is identical to the lazy/brute-force approach that mages with too much essence to waste use.

This was also covered in the Ayla Christmas Break story, and some of the Nacht Christmas story.

Have any of the Canon authors read any of Charles Stross's The Laundry novels? He's got another extremely chewy approach towards how reality works...

Mister D wrote: D'Oh! It's sounds daft when you say it like that...

It's that argument whether Schimmelhorn engineers are using magic or science.

"I reject your reality and impose my own!"

Which is identical to the lazy/brute-force approach that mages with too much essence to waste use.

This was also covered in the Ayla Christmas Break story, and some of the Nacht Christmas story.

Well, having to make sure that the system you impose is self-consistent, and having to govern what happens at the boundary between your space and 'common' space may limit the power?

Like the Theories of Genius: The Transgression.

Malady wrote:
Well, having to make sure that the system you impose is self-consistent, and having to govern what happens at the boundary between your space and 'common' space may limit the power?

Like the Theories of Genius: The Transgression.

Or like the Paradox system for Mage:The Ascension...

I want to take this discussion of karma in a slightly different direction, since my base for understanding the term is quite different. For the record, and to sidestep any futile discussion, Kristen's discussion of Karma in Hinduism and Sir Lee's discussion of Taoism are pretty well how I see those religions. There's no disagreement there.

My viewpoint comes from channeling by a Causal plane (5th dimensional in some frameworks) entity that calls itself Michael - i.e. the Michael Teaching. In that teaching, establishing karma requires three factors: an imbalance, an abrogation of someone's right to free choice, and intensity. A karmic ribbon, once created, must be resolved before either Essence (High Self, Oversoul, etc.) can quit reincarnating. From that viewpoint, many of the Hindu concepts are simply wrong: human Essences do not, for example, ever reincarnate as other than human (or at least other sentient beings). Karma is not "accumulated" - each instance is separate and distinct. Like must be resolved with like, but not necessarily the way one thinks; for example, killing karma can be repaid by "giving a life" rather than "taking a life." Karma does not have to be repaid in the next life: resolving a specific karmic ribbon can be postponed indefinitely, but not forever.

My views on magic are a good deal older than the current neo-pagan scene - they go back to the Druid Revival (18th century), the 19th century Magical Revival with Eliphas Levi, the Golden Dawn and Dione Fortune.

Humans are inherently magical creatures, in the sense that most people can do some amount of magic without the assistance of other beings or without having to wait for the appropriate astrological or other alignments, etc. It's not that these things don't work - they do work, and quite well. It's simply that they're not necessary.

So the term, "karmic magic," is, to me, an oxymoron. You can, of course, create karma by using magic, and you can clean up some of the mess left by karmic repayments by using magic, but there is not, as far as I know, any magic strictly and only associated with karma.

Now as to the Whateleyverse - magic in the Whateleyverse doesn't seem to work the same way I know it to work. It's a work of fantasy, and you can have any rules you want to in a work of fantasy. That's not, by the way, a blessing. There's a current article by John Michael Greer where he's looking at what he sees as the decline of the neo-pagan scene, and is not looking forward to the task of disentangling actual working magic from all the fantasy magic (Harry Potter, etc.) that has saturated the scene recently.

Since we're on the topic, a couple of other things to mention. The Law of Threefold Return is, as far as I'm concerned, bogus. The Law of Precedence does have some validity - that's why a novice mage should work in a specific school under a master until they get their feet under them. That is the time to experiment and branch out.

Well, 'nuff said.