Question The Tao

Let's bicker about Taoism!

... Sorta... ... Repost of my Tao starter thread that got wiped.

What do we really know about the Tao's motives and goals? It's all about 'Balance', and being outside of Good and Evil... But, Balance of what?? ... I guess we'll never know? The purpose of the Tao is to be inscrutable...

Although, if the Hand of Gaia of the Braeburn Report is the Handmaiden of the Tao, the Tao might have been made by Gaia/Gaea, the being at the center of the Five Fold Court? Sort of like the Ultimate Manifestation of Earth's Will, like a Fate/Stay Type-Earth, if that's somewhat accurate... Do we know that the Tao has Handmaidens on other worlds?

Is the Tao as old as the universe as it seems? Or is it something newer, and Aunghadhail didn't dare disturb popular perception, else the Tao would kill her? Possibly... We don't know one way or the other... No GOO or older entity has actually said...? Or has one?

And that Fate Loom in the Dreamspace, or Tao-Space or whatever, is possibly the Fate Loom of Forging Anew...

Random bit, 'cause I'm personally against seeing the Tao as 'Good' without knowing its motives... Perhaps the Tao wanted the Sundering, to possibly boost its power, freed from Gaia, or something... But, that's just my idea, and most likely not true? Unless it is, of course...

EDIT: Oh. Okay, post titles in Recent Posts is when there's no more Unread... Was wondering, and made an accidental double post.

Accidental Double Post...

Hmm. Okay. I'll need to re-read to understand how the Tao controls Chou, but ATM, it sounds like the Tradition of the Tales of the 500 Kingdoms , which is a Background Magic Field, and if it's strong enough, it can do things like:

Plot-Induced Stupidity: The Tradition can ensure that this happens in-universe, since some fairy tales rely on characters picking up the Idiot Ball. For example, the husband of a woman who was getting set up to be the mother of a Rapunzel knew the mysterious woman who moved in next door was a sorceress, but such was the power of the Tradition that he was compelled to steal lettuce from her garden anyway.

That information may also explain why the Tao doesn't just force Chou into the right path, because there isn't enough Unbalance pressure to cause a Tao empowerment to do the forcing! ... Which might be wrong, but is what makes sense to me right now?

As has just been said, it's like trying to give motives to gravity or something... Why was I thinking of it as an entity?, 'cause it's got human people that seem to see it as a being? 'Cause it's said to be like a Outer God?

... Are Outer Gods similar to Natural Laws like the Tao is, instead of the relatable entities I assume they are, due organic qualities like Shub-Niggurath being a mother? ... Or is it like how when Nacht became a Goddess-thing, she was more of a Tool / Force-thing than a motivated, as in to have motivations, being?

... More speculation: The Immortals are Taoists, but aren't actually empowered by the Tao? They just want to help the Tao along because they think it's the good thing to do?

Just keep in mind that when Kristin said that "the Tao needs both Good and Evil", well, there are more than way to see the Good and Evil dichotomy.

One way to see it is the Western Abrahamic way, where things tend to be associated with pure Good or pure Evil -- for instance, many religions and ideologies associate "order" with "good" and "chaos" with "evil." IN THAT SENSE, in that "good" and "evil" are seen as shorthand for specific sides in several dualities, well, yes, that is correct.

Another way to see it (and Heather has supported me in this in the past, so I feel pretty secure in saying so), the Taoist view is that no sides in a duality are "good" or "evil" in and of themselves -- is day "good" and night "evil?" Is male "good" and female "evil?". No, the Taoist view is that balance is good and imbalance is evil. And, going back to that very common association I made in the previous paragraph... neither pure order nor pure chaos is "good" in the Taoist view, and I have to agree with them -- consider that the closest we have to a "pure order" society is North Korea, and the closest to "pure chaos" is Somalia. I, for one, don't want to live in either one. I'm pretty happy to live somewhere where there is enough order that I (mostly) don't have to fear for my life and property every time I leave home, and enough chaos that I have the freedom to (mostly) choose the way I want to live my life.

Or, with our fondness of unreliable narrators, she could be completely insane and just imagining it all. The Monkey King and the Taoist immortals could simply be oddly specific floating bits of magic similar to Nikki's hobgoblins being generated completely by Chou creating a feedback loop of her own dementia.

Just saying…

Kristin Darken wrote: *nods* in the ethical sense for taoism, balance is 'right' and imbalance is 'wrong' ... to a degree that most Western ethical structures would say balance=good, imbalance=evil. In taoism, you need both the elements of Good and Evil ... because without someone taking things that don't belong to them, harming the weak, or so forth... you do not have an environment in which heroes can rise up to take risks to recover the stolen goods or bring succor to the harmed or protect the weak. Sometimes its the opposite, that evil has to arise to counter the good. The well intentioned who finds extra food for everyone, who helps their crafters become recognized by the nation, and protects them against things that will hurt them... but in doing so, distracts them from understanding and coping with the normal hardship of living in such a way that when it fails, they may be destroyed utterly before they learn to live in their own balance once again.

over-simplified, of course... but ya...

Part of the problem is that Good and Evil are abstractions with slippery definitions -- what is "good" for one may very well be "evil" for another (witness *any* political debate...).

It may be easier for our poor Western minds to assimilate the concept if we look at not the "good" and "evil" abstractions as a whole, but rather to certain attribute dualities that tend to be associated with the good/evil perceived duality. For instance, selfishness/selflessness, or violence/peacefulness. They may be still abstract, but they have better definitions, therefore it becomes easier to talk about them without misunderstanding.

This is a lovely discussion about a topic that has caused me some issues with some readers in the past, so let me see if I can help. What Sir Lee and Kristen said is accurate. To the Tao, balance is the goal, but dynamic balance and not static. A set of scales is static balance, there is only one way to achieve that state and then nothing changes. The Tao is about dynamic balance. Walking is a perfect example of dynamic balance. There are lots of variables that get tied up into walking and yet it is something most of us do without thinking. Even when weighted down with packages that are imbalanced we can still manage to walk, simply shifting balance as necessary.

The Tao in this story is the WU version of the Tao, and that Tao is based on my own understanding of the Tao. Over the years that understanding has grown. In fact I am currently working on a translation of the Tao Te Ching that is 1/4th done. So any issues people have with the Tao, remember it is my interpretation of something basically beyond the understanding of man. You can get hints, ideas, notions, glimpses but never enough for a true understanding.

But I will be happy to talk about this version of the Tao.

My knowledge of Tao wouldn't fill a tea cup. So all I care about your interpretation is that you are consistent with how you handle it.

I'm glad to see you return to write more.

I think I have been pretty consistent with the Tao. Chou often screwed things up in the beginning, which was part of the plan but by the end of her Freshman year she had a better handle on things. And talking to Immortals would certainly help with that.

Just wondered about this:

Might the Tao have been broken by the Sundering, like a lot of other things have??

The Tao finds the GOOs inherently unbalanced, and just tolerates Sara because of her humanness / caring of humanity, I think?

Since the Tao is the force of Balance that drives the Universe, it is antithetical to the GOOs since they represent forces taken way past Balance. Sara isn't really an issue because the force she represents isn't that far out of Balance. The Sundering did not break the Tao but rather threw things so out of whack that the Tao has been working fairly non-stop to fix them and is starting to get back there. It's just that when it was thrown out of whack it couldn't do as much, such as when you lose your own balance and are windmilling arms and legs trying to find that balance back. You sway back and forth until you are able to right yourself.

So, what can be said about the bell and the beads? Wait... Can more than one object be active at a time?

Had idea that Blade comes out when The Tao has a Combat mission, Beads come out when there's a Magic / Sealing Mission, and Bell comes out when there's a diplomatic mission...

But, Chou's done all three types, so that doesn't fit? And sealing things doesn't fit what I think is the Tao's "Get it done, right now!" ideal?

When the Tao calls a Handmaid, the Sword is traditional because the issue is often something where fighting is necessary. The Bell is used for purification and the beads for magic but they are supplements to Destiny's Wave. If he had bought them as well, it would have added to the power and would have meant the focus of the issue was not combat. What Chou's call was for IS combat related, meaning that the most effective counter to whatever the situation is will be through combat.

Chou can do all these things but the other tools would have expanded her tool kit. As it is she only has the basic magic/purification/diplomatic package that all Handmaids get. Honestly, it would have been better to have bought the lot. Safety first. But most teenage boys prefer swords to prayer beads and bells. So it goes.

Speaking of the bell/beads. Would it be possible down the road for her to acquire them? I'm sure it would be possible for her mentors to reproduce another set on a as needed basis?

Yolandria wrote: Speaking of the bell/beads. Would it be possible down the road for her to acquire them? I'm sure it would be possible for her mentors to reproduce another set on a as needed basis?

You assume they don't have them... Who WAS the man she bought the sword from in the first place?

DanZilla wrote: Who WAS the man she bought the sword from in the first place?

Just a humble traveling sentient magic sword salesman. They work a circuit between here, Hyrule, Middle Earth and some other rural places. If you see one, buy him lunch! It's a tough gig...

DanZilla wrote: You assume they don't have them... Who WAS the man she bought the sword from in the first place?

It was obviously this guy

Ebola wrote:

DanZilla wrote: You assume they don't have them... Who WAS the man she bought the sword from in the first place?

It was obviously this guy

Nah, given the results, I think it is this guy.

So, I guess the beads and bell could operate alone... ... What's the oldest of the items? We know the Blade was Artificer-made...

E. E. Nalley wrote: Or, with our fondness of unreliable narrators, she could be completely insane and just imagining it all. The Monkey King and the Taoist immortals could simply be oddly specific floating bits of magic similar to Nikki's hobgoblins being generated completely by Chou creating a feedback loop of her own dementia.

Just saying…

But could her insanity conger up the gold to pay for a wall smashed up on parents day?

On the other hand the entire Whatly universe could be simply the delusional thoughts of some slightly pervy authors.

Malady wrote: Just wondered about this:

Might the Tao have been broken by the Sundering, like a lot of other things have??

The Tao finds the GOOs inherently unbalanced, and just tolerates Sara because of her humanness / caring of humanity, I think?

I wonder if the GOOs are as unbalanced as they are commonly thought to have bin.
I'm remembering a Scyfy story of a world covered in sand. Astronauts land on it for a while. One of them brought watermelons from home. And they spit the seeds out. The seeds quickly grow to giant sized crushing there ship. This could revitalize the entire world.
It could be that the sand the GOOs leave behind are some kind of super fertilizer that can restore the life that has bin taken. Even restoring entire worlds.
That would make them very balanced. Destroying and bringing forth new life. Like a cleansing fire.

Valentine wrote:

Ebola wrote:

DanZilla wrote: You assume they don't have them... Who WAS the man she bought the sword from in the first place?

It was obviously this guy

Nah, given the results, I think it is this guy.

Nope clearly this guy. It could be no other.
https://tse3.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.CDNY3Tj8LSTlLTe76mc55gEsC6&w=299&h=186&c=7&qlt=90&o=4&pid=1.7

NJM1564 wrote:
Nope clearly this guy. It could be no other.
https://tse3.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.CDNY3Tj8LSTlLTe76mc55gEsC6&w=299&h=186&c=7&qlt=90&o=4&pid=1.7

Ah, I see you are a person of class as well

NJM1564 wrote:

E. E. Nalley wrote: Or, with our fondness of unreliable narrators, she could be completely insane and just imagining it all. The Monkey King and the Taoist immortals could simply be oddly specific floating bits of magic similar to Nikki's hobgoblins being generated completely by Chou creating a feedback loop of her own dementia.

Just saying…

But could her insanity conger up the gold to pay for a wall smashed up on parents day?

On the other hand the entire Whatly universe could be simply the delusional thoughts of some slightly pervy authors.

Maybe The Lit Chix are actually patients at a mental hospital and the entire Whateley Universe has been their shared delusions and roleplay. Maybe they're all there for severe cases of gender disphoria in addition to other things.

^{Too real?}

Angeldude wrote:

NJM1564 wrote:

E. E. Nalley wrote: Or, with our fondness of unreliable narrators, she could be completely insane and just imagining it all. The Monkey King and the Taoist immortals could simply be oddly specific floating bits of magic similar to Nikki's hobgoblins being generated completely by Chou creating a feedback loop of her own dementia.

Just saying…

But could her insanity conger up the gold to pay for a wall smashed up on parents day?

On the other hand the entire Whatly universe could be simply the delusional thoughts of some slightly pervy authors.

Maybe The Lit Chix are actually patients at a mental hospital and the entire Whateley Universe has been their shared delusions and roleplay. Maybe they're all there for severe cases of gender disphoria in addition to other things.

^{Too real?}

Or this entire universe is the product of the mad delusions of Jade and Jeraco's love child.

NJM1564 wrote:

E. E. Nalley wrote: Or, with our fondness of unreliable narrators, she could be completely insane and just imagining it all. The Monkey King and the Taoist immortals could simply be oddly specific floating bits of magic similar to Nikki's hobgoblins being generated completely by Chou creating a feedback loop of her own dementia.

Just saying…

But could her insanity conger up the gold to pay for a wall smashed up on parents day?

On the other hand the entire Whatly universe could be simply the delusional thoughts of some slightly pervy authors.

Malady wrote: Just wondered about this:

Might the Tao have been broken by the Sundering, like a lot of other things have??

The Tao finds the GOOs inherently unbalanced, and just tolerates Sara because of her humanness / caring of humanity, I think?

I wonder if the GOOs are as unbalanced as they are commonly thought to have bin.
I'm remembering a Scyfy story of a world covered in sand. Astronauts land on it for a while. One of them brought watermelons from home. And they spit the seeds out. The seeds quickly grow to giant sized crushing there ship. This could revitalize the entire world.
It could be that the sand the GOOs leave behind are some kind of super fertilizer that can restore the life that has bin taken. Even restoring entire worlds.
That would make them very balanced. Destroying and bringing forth new life. Like a cleansing fire.

This would fit in well with H.P.Lovecraft's naming of Shub-Niggurath as "The Goat With a Thousand Young", and it being worshipped as a fertility god/goddess.

There's some interesting hooks for my next CoC campaign...

Hmm... Here's a Wild Guess:

Presuming that the Hand of Gaia mentioned in the Braeburn Report is Chou Lee... Does that make Gaia = Tao?? *shrugs*

Malady wrote: Hmm... Here's a Wild Guess:

Presuming that the Hand of Gaia mentioned in the Braeburn Report is Chou Lee... Does that make Gaia = Tao?? *shrugs*

Gaia might be considered a part of the Tao but not an important part. Gaia isn't neutral enough to really be a significant part pf the Tao. Gaia is all about growth and creation. In some ways the Tao is against that.
Frankly all things being equal the Tao is out and out EVIL.
It's balance yes but in what way balanced around what point. A any significant/to fast progress, even for good, the Tao will counter. It's totally amoral and without feeling. It's a sociopathic god that would think nothing of destroying all mankind if it progresses in any significant way.
In short it's just a GOO with a good PR agent.

NJM1564 wrote: Frankly all things being equal the Tao is out and out EVIL.
It's balance but any significant progress even for good the Tao will counter. It's totally amoral and without feeling. It's a sociopathic god that would think nothing of destroying all mankind if it progresses in any significant way.
In short it's just a GOO with a good PR agent.

... I can see how you might think that... And now I'm trying to defend the Tao, how interesting...

Anyway, Dynamic Balance. Presumably, progress can be made, if it counters progress made elsewhere.

It's not trying to return everything to 0, I think. It's more... ... Can someone help me with an example of the Tao being pro-progress?

There are worse ways to get a sword... worse way to get a sword.

I'd not call The Tao evil. It simply is. It may just be "evil" as it is impartial to a degree that is anathema to our coloured perceptions. More of a contrasting difference rather than objective morality.

The tao could qualify as evil depending on perception. For instance, the Tao seems to espouse a concept of necessary evil, or the balance of good and evil, while other moral systems espouse that evil is just that, evil, and therefore NOT a necessary function of the universe.

By that standard, anything that espouses evil as necessary or "acceptable" would be, itself, evil or at least non-good. The truly black and white would classify the Tao as evil because it was non-good, while those that acknowledge Grey or Gray usually view those in terms of temporary results of free-will. Not necessary, merely inevitable until humanity finds true peace through whatever that particular faith or moral system espouses. For Christians, Jews, and Muslims, that is pursuit of perfect service to God/Yahweh/Allah by following his tenants and teachers. I don't know other religions well enough to say precisely how they'd view the elimination of evil.

Iwasforger03 wrote: For Christians, Jews, and Muslims, that is pursuit of perfect service to God/Yahweh/Allah by following his tenants and teachers. I don't know other religions well enough to say precisely how they'd view the elimination of evil.

Perfect service to G_d by following His tenets and teachers is more Christianity than it is Judaism. In fact, the yetzer hara, or inclination toward doing wrong, is considered an integral part of humanity.

It only has meaning because it is a choice, but the objective is to help people choose what is right. The ability to choose wrong is necessary, but actually choosing wrong is NOT necessary.

Now that you mention that I'll add to my argument.
What do you think is the most unbalancing element in any universe? Absolutes. They are forces that should not exist.
Such as immortals. So it should be odd that the Tao would involve itself with those who are?
Yet we have the Taoist immortals the only ones who claim that they are.

The force from star wars while fictional is described in similar terms to the Tao, and is likely in part based on it. That It guides others and is guided itself.
But how does that work? After all the Tao is a vague universal force. It shouldn't understand the complexities of human reasoning. It would need proxy for that. And that proxy would be the handmaidens. Then it should be odd the Tao would have only bin choosing easily manipulated girls as it's handmaidens.
Could it be that the Immortals are the ones choosing who the handmaidens are? Trying to manipulate the Tao by proxy.

JG wrote: The immortals have always lived under the specter of being a disruption to the tao.

This was addressed in an early chou story. they must always bend before the wind lest they be snapped off at the root.

I guess they're immortal 'cause the Tao "wills" it? Or would Chou be the snapper, as she's the Handmaid??

We have been down this road before. Expanding on J.G.'s answer:

There's this idea of "absolute good vs. absolute evil" that colors much of Western and Middle Eastern thought, as well as in other places where the dominant religion incorporated this Zoroastrian concept. It doesn't matter if you call them Jehovah and Lucifer, Allah and Shaitan, Ahuramazda and Ahriman. It's there. It's so integral to it that it generates an unfounded assumption that any other duality must necessarily correspond to that primary duality. That is, if there are two opposites, one necessarily must be in the side of good an the other necessarily must be in the side of evil. And, of course, "good" is defined as whatever the speaker prefers. If the speaker likes hot food, then salads and consommés are evil.

And yes, this does colors thought even when religion is not ostensibly the subject. Consider the current animosity between the two major U.S. political parties. There's no ground for dialogue: whoever is in the other side is automatically evil. So evil that if you do whatever is the opposite of them, you must be doing good, right?

To give another example, consider MRAs and Radical Feminists. MRAs paint all women as evil leeches, and RFs paint all men as evil rapists. Some undoubtedly are; but to paint all of them as such, just because they are on the other side, is missing the point.

Thing is, there are other systems of thought that do not depend on that good-vs-evil duality. Just to take an example fairly well-known to us Westerns, consider greco-roman mythology. There's no such figures there. The gods aren't absolutely good or absolutely evil.

And that takes us back to Taoism. Taoism is built on pairs of opposites. But, as J.G. pointed out, these are natural opposites, not artificial ones created by value/moral judgments. Light/dark. Male/female/ Hot/cold. Order/chaos. Sour/sweet. And its philosophy concerns the Balance of those opposites.

The Western mind automatically assumes that the Good/Evil dichotomy, so integral to its way of thinking, must be one of those pair of opposites that, according to Taoism, must be kept in balance. But in fact, it's not, because -- as J.G. pointed out -- Good and Evil are not natural elements, but artificial constructs created by a moral system.

Does that mean that Taoism is indifferent to Good and Evil? Not at all. Taoism does have concepts of good and evil. However, Taoism gives a clear definition of good and evil, something that in the Zoroastrian-derived religions is not easy. And it's pretty simple:
Balance is Good.
Imbalance is Evil.
And, funny thing is... that definition works pretty well in a real-world context. Point to something you would call "evil," and it's usually not hard to see some sort of big imbalance there. North Korea? Too much Order. Somalia? Too much Chaos.

Thank you for the explanation JG, that does clear up a few questions for me. It is easier to comprehend and analyze if the idea is that the real problem are the immortals themselves, rather than the Tao itself, which, even if sentient, has no sense of urgency (at least, that's what it sounds like you described). So the Handmaiden wasn't made by the Tao, but by the Immortals. They created what could kill them because they, unlike the Tao, have some sense of Urgency?

NJM1564 wrote: Now that you mention that I'll add to my argument.
What do you think is the most unbalancing element in any universe? Absolutes.

No. Some days, I'd say it's people who would claim to know what I think or believe better than I do.

NJM1564 wrote: They are forces that should not exist. Such as immortals.

So you say. Surprising that you equate immortals with absolutes, and not your own absolute concepts of good and evil. Perhaps those are the unbalancing factors that should not exist as they currently do?

NJM1564 wrote: So it should be odd that the Tao would involve itself with those who are?

Perhaps because the Tao concerns itself with people that do exist now, whether their potential lifespan is measured in decades or centuries, the actions they will likely take in the future, and the repercussions of those actions as they affect others.

NJM1564 wrote: Yet we have the Taoist immortals the only ones who claim that they are.

That's a claim that you are making on their behalf. It might be helpful to read up on who these legendary people are and what Taoism actually claims regarding them.

Iwasforger03 wrote: Thank you for the explanation JG, that does clear up a few questions for me. It is easier to comprehend and analyze if the idea is that the real problem are the immortals themselves, rather than the Tao itself, which, even if sentient, has no sense of urgency (at least, that's what it sounds like you described). So the Handmaiden wasn't made by the Tao, but by the Immortals. They created what could kill them because they, unlike the Tao, have some sense of Urgency?

Mmm. Immortals are WellIntentionedExtremists, sorta.

If anyone's been following me with Jialing, and the Loom, now I'm really wanting to know who Mage Smith Fai Zhan Wu is. He sorta started the whole thing. The name sounds really Chinese, but what does even that mean in the Five Fold Era??

FZW doesn't seem to be historical, the only Google result is back to Forging Anew ...

Wait... Maybe FZW is the seller of the three artifacts??

We talk about balance. Why aren't there any males among the Tao's killers. Shouldn't they be called Handservants instead?

Perhaps the handmaiden qualifies because the majority of the world's killers are male, so having the tao's hand be female IS the balancing act?

Iwasforger03 wrote: Perhaps the handmaiden qualifies because the majority of the world's killers are male, so having the tao's hand be female IS the balancing act?

Or they are so chosen as they can extinguish life, yet also create it anew.

Yolandria wrote: We talk about balance. Why aren't there any males among the Tao's killers. Shouldn't they be called Handservants instead?

when in doubt, blame testosterone

Sorry about the wall of text.

NJM1564 wrote: Now that you mention that I'll add to my argument.
What do you think is the most unbalancing element in any universe? Absolutes.

null0trooper wrote: No. Some days, I'd say it's people who would claim to know what I think or believe better than I do.

You don't think immortals, beings that never change, are out of balance with a constantly changing and growing universe?
A universe that ultimately dies. Bits and peaces of it die every day and ultimately it all will. Life and death. Creation and destruction. A plate that keeps spinning. But a immoral is a record that is skipping past it's own death. An immortal is Life with out death.

NJM1564 wrote: They are forces that should not exist. Such as immortals.

null0trooper wrote: So you say. Surprising that you equate immortals with absolutes, and not your own absolute concepts of good and evil. Perhaps those are the unbalancing factors that should not exist as they currently do?

Good and evil are too arbitrary. Is SMILE evil.
Are the Goodkinds? All of the Goodkinds.
Or are mutants evil. All of the mutants. Some would say yes to all of them. But can't most of us can see better.
What about Sara. And Tenyo.

NJM1564 wrote: So it should be odd that the Tao would involve itself with those who are?

null0trooper wrote:
Perhaps because the Tao concerns itself with people that do exist now, whether their potential lifespan is measured in decades or centuries, the actions they will likely take in the future, and the repercussions of those actions as they affect others.

But why is the Tao concerned with those repercussions. Is anything that happens now or in the future on this world going to end all of creation? Someone wins the loto in the future and goes on to devastate the mutant species. How is that going to ill effect creation as a whole? Why would mutants be that important?
Why kill him at all for that mater. Would the Tao ever have to use such heavy handed actions. If the Tao can "think" that far a head why not change the numbers that he draws. Just tick a electron over to the side. Or change what the winning numbers are.
Why not have the handmaden pick his pocket and steal the ticket. Or have the power go out in the store selling the ticket. Or make it so he was never born.

Unless of coarse the point was for the Immortals to shape her into a killer. Something she is not but could be influenced into becoming. Would the Tao ever have to use such heavy handed actions.
It's like those who kill in gods name. If god wanted someone dead they would be dead. Just dead. Hit by a bus. Heart attack. Not even he would simply drop dead.

NJM1564 wrote: Yet we have the Taoist immortals the only ones who claim that they are.

null0trooper wrote:
That's a claim that you are making on their behalf. It might be helpful to read up on who these legendary people are and what Taoism actually claims regarding them.

Are you asking me to look for the truth about fiction versions of mythical beings? That's like Hera complaining about how she was depicted on TV. There is no connection. The Tao is a story element here not gospel.

A simple truth is that the Tao is what ever the readers decide it is. Not even the authors. The readers. After all no mater what the authors wright it's up to those if us who read it interpret it. And in this forum we have the potential to influence even the authors interpretation of such things.

Some more contradictory behaviors.
Why did the Tao let the bastard live? Is some bozo who might win the loto more deserving of death than a world shattering thing. It knows to kill a man before it plops down a few bucks for a peace of paper and yet can not stop a world killer.
If the old kingdom had to die. Why do the Tao immortals get to live.


It might help if you take this all the fictional extreams. In the anime Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann the anti sprial king decided that continued progress would destroy the universe. So what did he do? He destroyed all civilizations except his own. And made it so no one else could progress.
Is stopping all progress to save existence evil? No. Slaughtering everything that might be a threat to it and stoping all potential growth yes.
Worse is that we don't even know if he is correct. Is he probably not. Because even after the protagonists started welding energy far in excess of what the Antispiral thought they could handle, energy equal to half of the universe, the very thing that he thought would destroy the universe, they still controlled it. And there was even indication that they could handle such energy better than he spiral king. He who knew so much better than you and you must die, could.

Pulling back to the Whateleverse there is nothing on the planet that the Tao should be caring about. There is nothing there that risks the universe as a whole. So why should the Tao care? It's only the immortals who might be troubled by things at that level. And they who might do honorable things to keep things going. But only under there influence.

Hell in simpler terms you ever hear about anyone in fiction who was after immortality or actually claimed to be immortal who wasn't an evil prick?
Ok, They might be out there but I don't recall many. There are however many who are assumed to be immortal and aren't evil but they don't say they are immortal.


Editing in the quotes took longer to do than writing this. :/

JG wrote: That being said, if the trend continues, as has every single Tao thread pertaining to the whateleyverse, that the debate is solely predicated on ways to find fault and brand the tao evil, I'm going to ask kristin to lock the thread, because it's not productive, and bluntly it's not adding anything.

Objectively you are right the Tao isn't evil. But it does evil things.
And subjectively someone that does evil things no mater what the reason is evil.

A dingo eats an animal to survive. Not evil.
A dingo eats your baby. Evil.

A more interesting question is why are you locking this thread? Just because you disagree with some of us? Why can't we say this fictionalized version of the Tao is evil. Like I said it's all in our individual interpretation. You don't even have to be involved if you don't want to.

Likely because your personal interpretation is just that - yours.

In a matter such as this, I think it definitely best to accept the Word Of God and simply move on, instead of grinding your perceived issue into the ground.

Hmm... The Handmaid is a girl.'cause Destiny's Wave girl is a girl.

Hmm... Would the wielder transform into a girl if the wielder had a BIT? ... OMG. The sword's a TransformationTinket. So blind! :wall:

Re the Handmaid being always a girl vs. the need for balance in Taoism...

Maybe you are looking at this in the wrong way. What if the Handmaid is by design a balance between male and female? Consider that the only Handmaid we know well was male until about a year ago. Male mind, female body. Yin and Yang. We don't know if previous Handmaids weren't also born male, or in other ways brought balance to the role. Yes, the Immortals and Destiny's Wave appeared to be surprised by this; but what if they are lying?

Re personifying the Tao...
I think part of the problem is verb usage. The usual way to describe the Tao is that it's "concerned" with Balance, or similar grammatical constructs. The trouble with that is that "concerned" can be interpreted in two different ways:
- The more appropriate way is that the Tao is concerned with Balance in the same way that Geometry is concerned with shapes -- it's what the concept is about.
- The less appropriatetotally wrong way would be to say that the Tao is concerned with Balance in the way a mother is concerned with her children's upbringing -- as in "actively worrying about".

As always with discussions on the Tao, people are making moral judgments on something that does not deal with morals. It is a force for dynamic balance. Morals are a human construct. The GOOs are forces that deal with absolutes, the far end of the scale: Creation, Destruction, etc... The Tao is not about absolutes, it is about the dynamic balance that exists in creation. It is not about things coming to a perfect equilibrium but rather about things continuing to move forward. If you ascribe morals to it you are missing the point. If you are saying that it is evil, you are missing the point.

Why does the Tao care about small things? Butterfly/Tornado. It is easier to fix things when they are small than when they are large. Because mortal beings has free will, the question about when it is small is up for grabs. Sometimes the Tao can shift things on a microscale. Sometimes mortals make that far too difficult. That is when you need to have something like a Handmaid.

Immortals: Like JG said, they are people who gave their lives over to the Tao, to do the Tao's will. The Eight Chinese Immortals also have things that they focus on, things that were important to them in their old life. They go by Immortals as that is the common name for them. And there are other Immortals out there and not all of them are connected to the Tao. Many of the deities and spirits could be considered Immortal by regular people. Dragons, Elves, etc... because their lifespan is outside of their knowledge. Hell, the first Immortal character in Literature is from the Epic of Gilgamesh. Ut-Naputschem was a character that had survived the Great Flood and was living where the food source made him and his wife Immortal.

Handmaids: Why are they women or girls? There is a degree of balance involved but it is not always because female is the opposite of male. There is a lot more that goes into it.

Forging Anew: The bladesmith is Destiny's Wave. When DW told Chou about her origin it is mentioned that she was the one who forged the blade and quenched it with her blood because it needed life.

I hope that helps.

I have just one more question...

...Heather, when are you going to choose an official avatar pic for the forums?

When the Tao provides.

My laptop is FUBAR atm so the loaner I am using does not have my image files.

Bladedancer wrote:
My laptop is FUBAR atm so the loaner I am using does not have my image files.

well, no wonder it's not working, if it's Fubar, that means it's in a tank of water.

My computer doesn't work in water either.

Long ago, a storm was heading for the city of Quin'lat. Everyone took protection within the walls except one man who remained outside. Kahless went to him and asked what he was doing.

"I am not afraid," the man said. "I will not hide my face behind stone and mortar. I will stand before the wind and make it respect me." Kahless honored his choice and went back inside. The next day, the storm came, and the man was killed. Kahless replied, "The wind does not respect a fool".

The Tao is like the wind. It is a force of nature, and one should respect the forces of nature.

Exactly. In the end, Nature always wins.

>.>
<.<

It just sometimes takes it an EXTREMELY long time to claim victory.

True, but humans have to constantly work to even begin to "tame" nature, while nature only has to keep on grooving.

Iwasforger03 wrote: >.>
<.<

It just sometimes takes it an EXTREMELY long time to claim victory.

now why am I thinking of Jurassic Park?

Bladedancer wrote: Forging Anew: The bladesmith is Destiny's Wave. When DW told Chou about her origin it is mentioned that she was the one who forged the blade and quenched it with her blood because it needed life.

I hope that helps.

Yes it does! Thanks! ... Now if I could only find the story that says that DW was made by life sacrifice of the forger, 'cause the other stories seem to say that the soul inside was a more recent person, and a Handmaid, or something. Also she was a teacher? ... I guess souls could have been swapped out... *shrug*

... If Jialing sacrificed herself for DW, and she was one of 1st gen Artificers... Is her Artificerness the one that's been moving throughout history, and the rest are all their original bodies?? ... Where are the other Artificers, I wonder...

Also that would mean they were speaking Chinese during Forging Anew? 'Cause the Sword-girl knows Chinese? Unless she can speak Sidhe as well or something?? Five Fold Era is weird. *shrug*

Things the Tao is directing its handmaiden towards?

Reasons why the Iron Dragon taking over China was allowed, and his push to conquer all of Asia + surrounding island territories *coughjapancough* have not been stymied or halted in any visible way we are aware of?

Did Chou marry Dorjee and Molly? Is she gonna have babies?

Did she ever get her father back? Does the Tao's "plan" involve her getting her father back, or is that a personal matter that rests on her shoulders, and the Tao will not take sides?

disclaimer: The words "Sides, plans, interests, and reasons" are used subjectively because when dealing with a, well, Force as described by Kristen, Heather, and JG, there really doesn't seem to be better words to use that fit into the context of us not-a-force mortal folks who lack proper context to understand this Force.

Iwasforger03 wrote: disclaimer: The words "Sides, plans, interests, and reasons" are used subjectively because when dealing with a, well, Force as described by Kristen, Heather, and JG, there really doesn't seem to be better words to use that fit into the context of us not-a-force mortal folks who lack proper context to understand this Force.

Hmm... I wonder if the Forceness could be better de-anthropomorphized? Like so:

"Imbalances naturally produce energy that is made to oppose themselves, and Chou, with Destiny's Wave, is made to pick up and focus that energy, and then divine how to channel that energy into rebalancing the imbalances.

Heh... has anyone bothered to ask DW if she speaks any other language set? Nope.

She was in Asia a lot and so has a fairly recent language and cultural package for there. But that is not the only places where DW has been.

Good questions all. Chou was called for something specific and that is coming up at some point.

The story I am working on deals with some of this.

... WMG: Can Chou 'make' a new imbalance to force a powerup?? Or enhance current imbalances to be stronger, to get more power??

Malady wrote: ... WMG: Can Chou 'make' a new imbalance to force a powerup?? Or enhance current imbalances to be stronger, to get more power??

Sooo.... you want the person who's empowered to ensure there's balance to deliberately destabilize it?

Sounds like a good way to get your toys taken away....

Malady wrote: ... WMG: Can Chou 'make' a new imbalance to force a powerup?? Or enhance current imbalances to be stronger, to get more power??

that'd be the Chou from the mirror universe, the one with the goatee...

Bladedancer wrote: The story I am working on deals with some of this.

SQUEEE!

Sir Lee wrote: SQUEEE!

No, not the Knight who says SQUEEE!

You must chop down the largest tree in the forest with a red herring!

JG wrote:

Rose Bunny wrote:
You must chop down the largest tree in the forest with a red herring!

Give Imp's candy back.

A herring for the herring-Impaired?

Or, we could always replace it with surströmming.

Maybe...here's a thought:

Did The Tao influence Chou and Kayda to become roommates? They're rivals, mostly friendly aside from pride, putting them in balance with each other, one mediator/healer (defensive), one mediator/handmaiden (attacker).

Hekate's Master is trying to push Kayda down a path where she learns offensive magic, tricking her into learning offensive magic in the form of vile mythos magic, the very thing that Kayda is meant to oppose as a core tenet of being the spiritual and magical leader of The People?

Doesn't that mean that Chou is in the perfect position to not only know that Kayda is beginning to stray from her role as a mediator and healer, and then empowered by the Tao, display that mythos magic could still be easily defeated by physical or shamanistic or chi-related attacks, a place that both of them excel in equal measure?

Chou can notice and gently...or not so gently, nudge Kayda back onto her path.

You may have something there.