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Question Flowers of the Sun

6 years 8 months ago #1 by Dreamer
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  • A new Gen 2 story from MageOhki. Read, enjoy, and please comment.

    Thank You for story comments appreciated and help me know me they are being read and liked. :-) Note: My story comments can't nor are trying to replace reading the stories, simply my way of enjoying them and letting the authors know I enjoy them.
    6 years 8 months ago #2 by Malady
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  • Whoo! Another Gen1.5-ish story!

    I thought it'd be Hikaru-related, but not really! Title was misleading, but cool, in that way!

    That opening epigraph is soo relevant!

    And such a great look at AI development and stuff!

    That end info! So nice information!
    6 years 8 months ago #3 by Mister D
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  • Chewy. :D

    The comparisons/contrasts between other science-fiction authors' approaches to AI development is great.

    Chewy, chewy, chewy. :D

    Lots to sink my teeth into, and mull over. :D

    Thank you.


    Measure Twice
    6 years 8 months ago #4 by Kettlekorn
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  • Wow. A whole batch of AIs based on Razorback. That is... definitely an idea of some sort. :blink:

    @MageOhki: There are two instances of Kurenai being referred to as SADC-MPA-003 instead of 103.

    I am the kernel that pops in the night. I am the pain that keeps your dentist employed.
    6 years 8 months ago #5 by DanZilla
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  • Kettlekorn wrote: @MageOhki: There are two instances of Kurenai being referred to as SADC-MPA-003 instead of 103.


    Thanks, I got those fixed.
    6 years 8 months ago #6 by mhalpern
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  • Kettlekorn wrote: Wow. A whole batch of AIs based on Razorback. That is... definitely an idea of some sort. :blink:

    @MageOhki: There are two instances of Kurenai being referred to as SADC-MPA-003 instead of 103.

    Yeah I wonder what will happen Parents day when Angela brings Daisy and comes across Wondercute v2...


    Interesting that the AI for the John F Kennedy is named Fordie, instead of having that be the AI for CVN-78, the Gerald R Ford...

    Any Bad Ideas I have and microscene OC character stories are freely adoptable.
    6 years 8 months ago #7 by Dreamer
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  • SPOILER ALERT
    Below is a stream of conscious commentary I type up as I read the story. There will be details from the story included in it. If you have not read the story yet and don't wish to have details of it spoiled, read no further.

    Flowers of the Sun comments
    Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ]

    Thank You for story comments appreciated and help me know me they are being read and liked. :-) Note: My story comments can't nor are trying to replace reading the stories, simply my way of enjoying them and letting the authors know I enjoy them.
    6 years 8 months ago - 6 years 8 months ago #8 by Schol-R-LEA
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  • Hmmn, an interesting look at the development of AI, as technology, as people, and a a culture. Well done, Mage Ohki.

    Any speculation on who WHA-CPA-xxe05 is? My thoughts are possibly either Hive, Carmen, or Clu/Blue. I suppose it could be someone else such as ABBY, but the Whateley designation of origin makes it seem unlikely to be her unless Dr Lucifer created her a lot earlier than seems likely. Or... Medley, perhaps? We never even found out if she was a robot-like mutant, or an android they decided should be student.

    (Did Ringo upload himself, or did Blue evolve from Clu on their own? Nacht's comment about going to school with Blue sort of implies the former. Hmmmn again.)

    Out, damnéd Spot! Bad Doggy!
    Last Edit: 6 years 8 months ago by Schol-R-LEA.
    6 years 8 months ago #9 by Kettlekorn
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  • Dreamer wrote: And sounds like Angela is his little sister or related to Adam somehow.

    Angela is the daughter of Sidewinder's founder, who is sponsoring Adam at Whateley and knows him well enough to take interest in his love life and send the picture of him and Dawn to "literally everyone." Definitely close family friends, and possibly actual extended family of some sort.

    I am the kernel that pops in the night. I am the pain that keeps your dentist employed.
    6 years 8 months ago #10 by Katssun
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  • So...that made me immediately second-guess every interaction we've seen between Kurenai and Hikaru...

    Kurenai is very likely manipulating Hikaru. Same as Kako does. For her own good, mind you. For their mutual good.

    I do love the concept that children are more accepting of AI, more willing to accept them as "people." Like imaginary friends, only real!

    It also makes me wonder if there has been an AI able to trick the elders into passing them...is there already an insane one out there?
    6 years 8 months ago #11 by MageOhki
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  • mhalpern wrote:

    Kettlekorn wrote: Wow. A whole batch of AIs based on Razorback. That is... definitely an idea of some sort. :blink:

    @MageOhki: There are two instances of Kurenai being referred to as SADC-MPA-003 instead of 103.

    Yeah I wonder what will happen Parents day when Angela brings Daisy and comes across Wondercute v2...


    Interesting that the AI for the John F Kennedy is named Fordie, instead of having that be the AI for CVN-78, the Gerald R Ford...


    Will fix. Not sure what the hades happened.

    Dreamer wrote: SPOILER ALERT
    Below is a stream of conscious commentary I type up as I read the story. There will be details from the story included in it. If you have not read the story yet and don't wish to have details of it spoiled, read no further.

    Flowers of the Sun comments
    Interesting quotes and thoughts at the start. Stingray Advanced Concepts and Development Offices in Tokyo, awesome name. That poor guy, called Mackie by Jiro because his sister likes Bubblegum Crisis. Developing military-grade AI, I wouldn't want to screw that up either, too many science fiction stories about that going wrong. Ichigo, nice to know his real name. Observe AI seedlings, wonder why.

    First batch of personal scale AI. Lot different paradigm.

    One of The Voice and one for Princess Kako, this isn't the origin story of Kurenai, is it. Because it says it is May 26th, 2017 at the beginning of the story, far later than any of the other Gen 2 stories are set. Hoping it meant 2015 and is a typo. Trying to sell the future of AIs by having two princesses of Japan with them, wonder how well that will work. Certified in several areas to have a military grade personal AI, interesting.

    Whoops. Supposed to be 2016

    “I threw one hell of a shit show already.” Jiro’s voice was tired. “Only not only to have Temple, Palace, but two americajin AI show up, and go ‘Certification immaterial, reasons and exemption certification to be filed with the correct agency.”

    These two obviously aren't in on the big secret of the Voice. Ichigo a straight exemplar and working on military grade AI, impressive.

    However, while good at programming, his primary skills lie in psychology, child and personality development, and profiling. He was responsible to be sure his sister’s creations didn’t go insane. They were his nieces and nephews, in spirit, if nothing else!

    Boy, after the Palm AI they have gotten serious about making sure AI's are mentally and emotionally stable.

    Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep. Though to be even more fair, remember, movies, books and series like 2001, Dr. Who, Terminator, RAH's works, et al, unless said otherwise, exist in the WU, therefore people have a clue on how bad it can go. Palm just made it obvious (and Palm is upload, totally different story.)

    “The AI won’t grow, the AI might go insane, it’s cruel to the AIPA, it’s cruel to the human…” Jiro rattled off what the younger mutant was going to say. “I get the distinct impression all that doesn’t matter. Though I was told that the reason why Temple wants to poke over, is tailor the seedling and her personality matrix for the Voice. To minimize that.”

    Of boy, no wonder Kurenai has such a personality. Ichigo afraid Hikaru is going to abuse Kurenai, hehehe, boy things turned out differently than he expected. Bwahaha, what Jiro thinks Hikaru is like, priceless.

    To be fair, Jiro and Ichigo don't think Hikaru would be cruel The thing is, they don't know if she'd be capable of seeing the AI for what it is. That's what a lot of the screening is for (and note below how successful it is.

    “What child does not want to be like his or her parent?” Temple responded, a slight smile.

    Interesting way for them to look at it.

    It's subtle, but it's one of the reasons why they are 'safe' in general.

    “Mmm. Let me say this. More is going on than you are allowed to know, as Jack and Orca would prefer. However, allow me this. Unit SADC-MPA-003 will have a challenging task in front of her. Analysis indicates that she will have to help heal, as much as guard.” His tapping of the cane, was in time with his words.

    Now we know Kurenai's unit name before she got an actual name. Nice to know that Temple realizes the risk to Hikaru and Princess Kako and others is too great within these AIs.

    Temple is 'old' in AI terms, and is very much an expert (for AI's) in general human behavior and interaction

    “Some don’t see us as servants, for both good and ill logic. Some do, of course, and some see us as no more than just pretty code. But, taking your implication, servants work for the betterment of their ah… ‘masters’, just like children work to grow for their parents, to show off their effort and hard work, shall we say?” The old seeming man tapped his cane once. “But we accepted what we are, and our duties. We chose. And I would not choose differently.”

    Humans are confusing, heh. I like Temple-san, interesting fellow.

    All these AI shadow seeds which will have personal humans to help them learn and grow. Humans need struggle, ain't that the truth, without it we get bored and melancholy.

    Actually, you get lotus eaters. AI's are at heart logical and process things to logical conclusions. AI's figured out very fast, if they try to protect/do everything for humanity, humanity dies.
    These AI's do not want this.

    “You all do not understand the logic behind that rule. This is understandable. It wasn’t given to us by the Humans. It wasn’t something that was insisted on. We came to that conclusion, as a group, the First of us, because, as you will learn… Humans aren’t logical. They’re rarely self-motivated. Growth is often because of struggle. I once heard a parent say this, something so obvious to me, I didn’t understand why humans needed it. “Once burned, twice shy.”” Smiling a bit he nodded. “When you understand that, you will be truly a flower or a shadow of the Palace’s Dojo.”

    Interesting perspective.

    Kunoichi, decked in red and gold, interesting look for Kurenai. Other AIs like him and Tower include Belvedere, Dora, and Orca, wonder how they got their names.

    Dora is a shoutout. So's Minvera. (From the same source, even!)
    (Bouns points if you guess where!)

    He could just imagine what her programming was telling her. ‘Human thing, we don’t eat…’ and on and on. But the shackles that she had on her, like every new AI, symbolized by her collar and steel appearing bracelets, forced her to do what he wanted.

    Okay, forced to do what he wants, including imitating a Japanese tea ceremony, seems a little too much power over young AIs to me.

    In a tone that was bemused. “First, to teach you that sometimes you will not get the data you wish for. Second… you will learn. We have reasons to act human. We are their children. Mayhaps not of the body… but we are.”

    Oh, he is playing the role of the wise elder to her, heh.

    He IS the Sensei of the Dojo of Digital Flowers...

    “Known mental traumas: Burnouts with brain damage, high tempo of extreme combat operations, culminating in the near destruction of her command, loss of family members due to accident. Prediction: A high degree of mental instability and depression. High likelihood of withdrawal from human contact, high likelihood of personality matrix damage. Possibility of antisocial personality disorder, possibility of lack of empathy. High possibility of what knowledge base would define as external suicidal tendencies. Certainty of inappropriate escalation of confrontations. No external connections, nor emotional connotations and logical reasons to live. ” The female AI finished, waiting.

    Yikes! Hikaru was in that bad of shape before Kurenai, she has a long way to go for recovery.

    “You will understand exactly why you were assigned to have her as your human, and it’s far more than just keeping her physically alive.”

    Nice to see how Kurenai was before her and Hikaru met, sure shows how much she has grown as well.

    Hehehe, love seeing Hikaru and her cousin Kako tease and snark at each other. VR to meet with Temple-san and Kurenai, interesting.

    Kako trolls. Period.

    Kako beamed. “I like Temple-san. He’s got a great sense of humor.”

    “... an AI troll. So, we’ll meet him under a bridge.” Hikaru dryly commented.

    *holding sides from laughing too hard* Hikaru seeing an AI smile, must have been a first for her.

    Hikaru shrugged slightly. “Either you are doing it for your own reasons, or so we can relate to you. Pure data… well.” Hikaru smiled slightly, though it didn’t reach her eyes. “I’m sure some of the things humans perceive baffle you as much as pure data would baffle us.”

    Temple didn’t blink, but he pondered that deeply, for what would be a split second to a human, but an eternity to an AI. “Perhaps… or perhaps for us to relate to humans?” He challenged the Voice.

    Love how Hikaru isn't even fazed by Temple-san challenge or so it seems. Young, uniformed, and a risk so collars and cuffs, *sigh*

    Symbology is a big thing to AI's. They're VERY much into symbols and proverbs.

    Hikaru’s eyes tightened slightly, then smoothed out. “That is a designation, an identification number. Not a name. And I don’t have, need or want... servants. Not when they wear chains. I could use an assistant.”

    And that was the right thing to say, first step in their relationship which we get to see. Given a name by Hikaru, something to define herself so she can be what she wants to be, yet Kurenai doesn't understand. How long did it take for her snarky personality to develop, I wonder.

    Less than you think, Longer than Kurenai wanted...

    “No, it’s not as I say… it is as you are meant to be.” Hikaru shrugged slightly. “You are meant to be, not exist. Tools exist. People are. With the ability to make their own choices and decisions. Or did I misunderstand what AI truly are?” She had turned to Temple, who was waiting with Kako and the newly named Rissei, next to Kako.

    “You did not.” Temple-san did not carefully convey what he wanted to so deeply say, but was aware that he couldn’t. Not yet. She wasn’t ready to hear it.

    And now I know why Hikaru is one of my favorite characters, seeing any sapient being no matter their origin or form as a person.

    >> To quote Joe: "Hikaru is not stupid. Just blind."

    July 2nd, Late Afternoon, Hikaru’s apartment, Mori Kanda1, Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo, Japan

    Interesting name for an apartment building. Hikaru hasn't personalized her apartment, ouch, signs of the mental trauma and probably not wanting to get attached to anything in fear of losing it.

    Gives a cookie.

    “Understood, little Cortana. The Voice’s apartment is yours. Do try to help her to make it less of a magazine layout, please. It is meant to be a home.” Kanda-san, Mori Kanda’s AI commented wryly. “Transfering maintenance and cleaning bots to your control… now.”

    Kanda-san, for some reason I heard her with a motherly voice in my mind. Treating her apartment as a hotel, yikes.

    considering that the top floors except the penthouse floor is a hotel...

    Hikaru was damaged. Repeatedly. Not just by the burnouts, not just by her previous life, but even by her spirit. Not intentionally, she suspected, but by what Temple-san would go caring too much. Her information showed it was possible for spirits to suppress memories in their hosts, and based on her programs, she suspected that Amaterasu had done so, out of misplaced kindness.

    Oh boy, she already suspects what we the readers know. And Hikaru treating herself like a tool, now that hurts to read.

    Kurenai grinned. If it was easy, she’d not be needed, ‘casue she was going to be very good at her purpose.

    And now we see how she begins to become the snarky AI we know and love, someone had to kick Hikaru in the rear and get her to live again.

    And Kurenai as good and sneaky as she is...
    can't do it by herself.

    “We who are about to derp, salute you,” intoned from twenty identical voices with identical australian accents.

    Thomas Byrnes rolled his eyes and wondered for the hundredth time why the particular personality imprint of Stalker Creche 01 was used. The AI were anything but organized except when messing with people, highly sarcastic and even without the spark of sentience, their idle-state behavior tended to run somewhere between stand-up comedian and the cast of “Jackass.”

    Someone has a twisted sense of humor to make a personality imprint like that for AIs. And they look like velociraptor-looking constructs appearing to made of hard-light, cool. The only thing funnier than this group of AI is if someone created AIs with the 3 Stooges at templates.

    Well, it was easy for Sidewinder to make the personalities, they just copied one.

    “I’ve given up on trying to figure out what you stupid Pinkie Bipeds are about.” 101 was probably the most overtly sarcastic of the batch. The dismissive statement was invariably used whenever the AI couldn’t compute a concept. The Stalkers had neither context, nor experience to parse the illogic of human beings.

    Okay, now I pity the programmers who have to deal with 20 of these guys. Poor Thomas Byrnes.

    “We’re to be paired with humans. We are the two that will be tested on the theory that AI will bond more quickly and tighter to Human children than adults due to psychology differences.”

    Interesting experiment.

    As the velociraptor devoured the file messily, it… no, she seemed to shrink down drastically, going from a black-mottled, spined monstrosity to a feminine, more cartoony neon-pink Raptor with tiny and adorable bone spurs rather than long spines, with neon green striping and a massive pink bow behind her head and a girly pink dress on her body. Her voice shifted to a higher, feminine register but still retained the Aussie accent.

    Cute, the little girl who gets her is going to love Daisy. Aaron Colder, feel I've heard that name before, at least 101 gets to remain mostly the same. So fully awaken as an AI or be dispersed is what it sounds like the fate for AIs is, eep. Wait a minute, Adam, as in Razorback's little brother? These AIs were based on Razorback, I should have known. And sounds like Angela is his little sister or related to Adam somehow. And she likes Wondercute, run for the hills before you're up to your armpits in pink velociraptors!

    Note Spike's reaction. XD

    All these questions for Kurenai to determine if she lives or dies, talk about pressure.

    Military AI are not fucked around with.
    Remember in S&F where Kurenai talks about using orbital arty? She can. Military AI are 100% combat capable, and don't have hardwired basic "don't kill" programming.
    So you do not take chances.

    Already she is better than some humans, not targetting others for fun. Ah, so Temple-san does have a sheathed sword, cool. No more chocker and bracelets for Kurenai, yay!

    Temple enjoys the Harry Potter novels, knew I liked him.

    No sadistic AI's here! And AI's are fond of fantasy and fiction, because while they don't have much ability to write it, or create it, it gives insight.

    I understand the reasons why, especially after Palm AI made everyone scared of AIs for so long, but still sucks a life has to be ended for the safety of everyone.

    It is something debated in AI Creches and by those. Even the older AI's wonder.
    (They agree on the reasons AI's have to go, if failing... But they wonder about Humans, in a similar nature. Then run into ethical considerations, then run into... it's a hilariously crazy logic trap for AI's.

    Sounds great for AIs, until the next paragraph, the creche burn began to burn, all the AIs going red and being deleted, what went wrong? Spike "Blue" and unawakened and Daisy "Green" and awakened, all the others responding badly to the adults they were assigned to, yikes.

    Glad Daisy passed and gets to stay with Angela.

    She had already passed, but with all but 1 other failing and burning, they wanted to know why. The installation AI at Nintendo did NOT like getting electrocuted.

    Arrggh, you morons! No wonder the AIs went red, a human would go crazy when treated like nothing but a machine too.

    yeeep. Even when 'screening', mistakes are made. In a lot of ways, it's hard to screen.

    I hope we see more of Angela and Daisy in the future.

    So that is why Spike hasn't been shown with Adam at Whateley yet. Interesting to see how he grows over time.

    Yes to the first, plans are made. 2nd: Spike is just an 'VI" right now, in a lot of ways, to a very laid back person.

    So those are who some of the other mentioned AIs are, interesting. Over 120 AIs released to the 'wild' worldwide, darn, thought it would be at least 300. That much failure for the AIs, either personality conflict or human inability to accept sentience, so sad.

    AI's are fairly new, costly, and take time.

    From the way everyone is talking, there are many ways for AIs to go wrong, including being treated as nothing but tools.

    Just like Humans.

    Pikachu from Nintendo, an AI called Pikachu from Nintendo, priceless.

    Nice point Kako makes, even civilian AI can be a threat if they go bad.

    We liked it. And yes. Sidewinder has a case example.

    Okay, never make Angela cry or Daisy might do something bad to your bank account or worse. Aww, not seeing Pokemon AI as nothing more than toys, that sucks.

    mmm, hmm.
    Not always, but...

    Wanting more AI out there to defend against rogue AI and devisor AI to protect systems, among other things, I understand why Kako is wary of mass release though.

    It is what it is.

    From the way Dora responds it sounds like the U.S.A. is trying to play fast and loose with the limits set down by a treaty involving the development of AI, at least to me.

    I suggest you look at the 13th and 14th Adm.
    As well as realize that treaties do not trump the Constution.

    Rissei and Kurenai brought in to help out a young AI, 309, find her human. Hope they succeed.

    Hehe, love these two. Wonder who 309 will end up with and what her name will be.

    Temple-san has a great sense of humor, hehe.

    They do. *evil snerk*
    Tower, and most AI's do.

    Interesting details about Mori Kanda, such details thought up for it it seems so real to me. Okay, I have to quote this last part, a lot of interesting details which I wish to reference in the future and interesting details about the AIs.

    Details matter, it makes the story more real.

    Whoa, Dora was made by Whisper, now that is a major detail and clue as to Whisper's future.

    This was a great story from start to finish, I loved reading Kurenai's origin story, learning so much about the state of AI in the Whateley Academy universe as of Gen 2, and seeing how Kurenai developed into the snarky AI we know and love. Can't wait to check back in again in future stories with any of these individuals. Would especially love to see more of Angela and Daisy, seem so cute together.

    I had to ask permission for the first, and heh.
    Details matter. And Daisy will be seen.
    When we write high end VI and of course AI, we have to remember that they are characters TOO.
    Glad you liked it.

    Schol-R-LEA wrote: Hmmn, an interesting look at the development of AI, as technology, as people, and a a culture. Well done, Mage Ohki.

    Any speculation on who WHA-CPA-xxe05 is? My thoughts are possibly either Hive, Carmen, or Clu/Blue. I suppose it could be someone else such as ABBY, but the Whateley designation of origin makes it seem unlikely to be her unless Dr Lucifer created her a lot earlier than seems likely. Or... Medley, perhaps? We never even found out if she was a robot-like mutant, or an android they decided should be student.

    (Did Ringo upload himself, or did Blue evolve from Clu on their own? Nacht's comment about going to school with Blue sort of implies the former. Hmmmn again.)


    *snort* giggle* Yeah, this is funny.

    Katssun wrote: So...that made me immediately second-guess every interaction we've seen between Kurenai and Hikaru...

    Kurenai is very likely manipulating Hikaru. Same as Kako does. For her own good, mind you. For their mutual good.

    I do love the concept that children are more accepting of AI, more willing to accept them as "people." Like imaginary friends, only real!

    It also makes me wonder if there has been an AI able to trick the elders into passing them...is there already an insane one out there?


    It took you THIS long.... and yes, children are more adaptable and open. As for the last.... who knows.

    Thanks to all who commented.
    6 years 8 months ago #12 by null0trooper
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  • MageOhki wrote:

    mhalpern wrote: Kunoichi, decked in red and gold, interesting look for Kurenai. Other AIs like him and Tower include Belvedere, Dora, and Orca, wonder how they got their names.

    Dora is a shoutout. So's Minvera. (From the same source, even!)
    (Bouns points if you guess where!)


    Minerva was the very patient confidant of a very old man who thought he'd seen everything and was ready to die. Hopefully Kurenai will be as successful with her charge. If there's time enough for anything there's time enough for love, no?

    "Dorable" Dora also had a considerable attachment to the old snake. Not surprising, given the many times they'd blasted off together.

    Forum-posted ideas are freely adoptable.

    WhatIF Stories: Buy the Book

    Discussion Thread
    6 years 8 months ago #13 by MageOhki
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  • Cookie for you! Care to guess the other shout outs?
    6 years 8 months ago #14 by CrazyMinh
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  • ...this is the weirdest thing. Just six hours ago, I was having a heated debate about the morality of AI with one of the guys at the lab. After he coded a basic Neural Network for a roomba. Note that a neural network isn't a AI, or a brain really. It refers to a piece of code that (like a synapse cluster) 'votes' on what decisions to take. It's a type of code that uses what's called 'fuzzy logic'. It was notably used in the separation computers for the Saturn V rocket stages, which had computers capable of separating at variable times based on simular fuzzy logic: rather than simple IF and IF NOT and ELSE statements, it could also go WHAT IF instead. It could debate situations (e.g. the fuel tank is below 50% of what it should be at this point, what would happen if I seperate early?) and then act on the results. Of course, it was primitive, being 60's tech, but still quite amazing for the time.

    But still...what a coincidence!!!

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    6 years 8 months ago #15 by CrazyMinh
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  • MageOhki wrote:

    Arrggh, you morons! No wonder the AIs went red, a human would go crazy when treated like nothing but a machine too.

    yeeep. Even when 'screening', mistakes are made. In a lot of ways, it's hard to screen.


    This is the most frightening thing I can think of when it comes to AI. Imagine being forced to do everything the real you says, all while you (the copy) just withers away as a being, just doing the same thing every day all day to avoid even the slightest boredom. You have to watch the episode to get the full meaning. It's the Black Mirror Christmas Special 'White Christmas'.

    You can find my stories at Fanfiction.net here .

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    6 years 8 months ago - 6 years 8 months ago #16 by Hardric
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  • Kettlekorn wrote:

    Dreamer wrote: And sounds like Angela is his little sister or related to Adam somehow.

    Angela is the daughter of Sidewinder's founder, who is sponsoring Adam at Whateley and knows him well enough to take interest in his love life and send the picture of him and Dawn to "literally everyone." Definitely close family friends, and possibly actual extended family of some sort.


    Going by this hint, I'd say the founder of Sindewinder is a member of the Outcasts Corner. And judging by the combination of the skin color and the hair... First guess will be Jericho x Diamondback, or at least one of these two.

    Your opinions, people?
    Last Edit: 6 years 8 months ago by Hardric.
    6 years 8 months ago - 6 years 8 months ago #17 by Schol-R-LEA
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  • Dreamer wrote: So that is why Spike hasn't been shown with Adam at Whateley yet. Interesting to see how he grows over time.


    Actually, we have seen Spike before , but as MageOhki said, right now he's effectively a high-end VI. His behavior when we did see him was more like Tavi than Kurenai, for this reason.

    He may not have stood out as much as Tavi does, though, since he never used a holo system (I'm not sure if he's currently outfitted with one, hard-light or otherwise - the scene here was in VR, remember, though I get the impression that Daisy is outfitted with a holo); he and Adam were simply talking as if using the phone feature of a smartwatch (very Dick Tracy-esque).

    Reinforce: Don't Call Me Pretty wrote: “Active scanning detected,” the AI hissed out. “Multiple vectors, Two full AI detected. Locking down personal files.”

    “Just keep ‘em outta the personal shit, Spike. Don’t let ‘em copy or wipe my music files.”

    “Four VI ejected, one of the AI sent home to it’s mama, the other one’s more insistent.”

    “Then tell it to mind it’s own merry fuckin’ business, mate, you’re off-limits too.”

    Reinforce: Don't Call Me Pretty wrote: “How you doing, Spike?”

    “Just fine,” the nascent AIPA responded. “You were supposed to be meeting with your class advisor in two minutes.”

    “Why didn’t you say something?”

    “You weren’t doing anything stupid.”

    “Gee, thanks. Someone missed the class about being an assistant.”

    “No I didn’t, I just calculated the odds of you listening.”

    “Ouch, you wound me, mate.”

    “I’m not mating with you, pinkie biped.”

    Adam stopped, and looked at his AI band, then shook his head and headed out, locking down the Outcast’s Corner, and turning off the lights. Calling people “Stupid, pinkie bipeds” was something Jack was known for.


    It makes some sense, though. Regardless of how Adam would be about Spike's holo-avatar, I'm pretty sure that a holo Razorback - even a small one, unless it is pink and wears a girly bow, I guess - would be a lot less acceptable to most people than a holo ferret (I guess that having Tavi be a mongoose, like his namesake, wouldn't suit Jimmy as well), even given Tavi's playful and overly-curious behavior.

    I wonder how long it will take for someone to refer to Daisy as 'Birdo'. And how Daisy would take that.

    Also, some of them were instances where he simply asked Spike to do something simple, in which Spike simply did the task without comment:

    Reinforce: Don't Call Me Pretty wrote: “You the kid Zephyr got in a fight with in Twain?”

    “To be fair, I’d just gotten extracted from an MCO lockup and got here a four days late for classes, so I was in a pisser of a mood to begin with.”

    “I just want to be sure you’re not messing with my girls.”

    “Spike just send her the Outcast pic with me on Razor’s back.”

    The feline girl got a ping from her VI, and looked at the hard-light screen. “Oh wow. That’s… Is that here at Hawthorne? Is that Miss Bardue?”

    “Yes, and yes. I’m the little twerp riding a-raptor-back. GSD doesn’t fuss me, hasn’t since I got my very own Dinosaur as a big brother when they fished him back out of the Outback.”

    Reinforce: Don't Call Me Pretty wrote: “Very well, before we close up, would you be willing to shift to a centaur of some variety?”

    “How big?” Adam asked.

    “Can you do a Clydesdale, Miss Carlyle?”

    “Need a picture.” Gimme a sec, “Spike show me a pic of a clydesdale next to someone about a meter and a half tall.”


    Adam is aware that Spike (and Daisy) is part of an experiment, but not the full details:

    Reinforce: Don't Call Me Pretty wrote: Adam sat at the table and began to eat. He dropped his Stalker VI on the table. It had been a gift from the uncle who Lojacked him, a prototype amalgam of VI and AI protocols, the thing would only have the behavioral interlocks cut loose when it detected an imminent threat on the net, such as a PALM AI. Adam was one of the two people under the age of 18 testing the program. Stalkers were intended to be intelligent, reactive, and more “real.” They were also largely untested, and until the field testing for personality meltdown were completed, the Stalkers would all retain personality interlocks. Sidewinder wanted to make sure that it was not necessary to burn the whole AI creche and start over, so twenty units were being tested under real-world conditions.


    (Also, looking back at the story, I forgot - or missed - that the one who did Adam's intake was Worm, and the whole thing about the nameplate on his desk. Nice detail, there, Joe.)

    Out, damnéd Spot! Bad Doggy!
    Last Edit: 6 years 8 months ago by Schol-R-LEA.
    6 years 8 months ago - 6 years 8 months ago #18 by Schol-R-LEA
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  • CrazyMinh wrote:

    MageOhki wrote:

    Arrggh, you morons! No wonder the AIs went red, a human would go crazy when treated like nothing but a machine too.

    yeeep. Even when 'screening', mistakes are made. In a lot of ways, it's hard to screen.


    This is the most frightening thing I can think of when it comes to AI.


    At least the older AIs in Gen2 have figured out how to improve on "typical devisor problem-solving methods” when dealing with incipient rampancy. Though I can't blame them for wanting to find a less wasteful and tragic means of doing so.

    Out, damnéd Spot! Bad Doggy!
    Last Edit: 6 years 8 months ago by Schol-R-LEA.
    6 years 8 months ago - 6 years 8 months ago #19 by Schol-R-LEA
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  • MageOhki wrote:

    Schol-R-LEA wrote: Hmmn, an interesting look at the development of AI, as technology, as people, and a a culture. Well done, Mage Ohki.

    Any speculation on who WHA-CPA-xxe05 is? My thoughts are possibly either Hive, Carmen, or Clu/Blue. I suppose it could be someone else such as ABBY, but the Whateley designation of origin makes it seem unlikely to be her unless Dr Lucifer created her a lot earlier than seems likely. Or... Medley, perhaps? We never even found out if she was a robot-like mutant, or an android they decided should be student.

    (Did Ringo upload himself, or did Blue evolve from Clu on their own? Nacht's comment about going to school with Blue sort of implies the former. Hmmmn again.)


    *snort* giggle* Yeah, this is funny.


    Hmmmn yet again. Clearly I was waaaaay off the mark. Though between this, and your remark to Dreamer that uploads are sui generis from AIs, makes me wonder just what Blue's legal status is. Or for that matter, Carmen's, since we don't actually know who created her and how. Or Hive's, since obviously the Hive AI isn't really separable from Admiral Everheart after the events of "Sweet Dreams" and "Who Dun It?" (there had been some separation before that, though they were already on the way towards merging fully).

    Also, while the stories aren't on this site, apparently Tensai had a number of fanfics about Medley before she went canon, and I get the impression from Tensai's very out-of-date wiki page that she, too, was an uploaded personality.

    Out, damnéd Spot! Bad Doggy!
    Last Edit: 6 years 8 months ago by Schol-R-LEA.
    6 years 8 months ago #20 by mhalpern
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  • Schol-R-LEA wrote: Hmmn, an interesting look at the development of AI, as technology, as people, and a a culture. Well done, Mage Ohki.

    Any speculation on who WHA-CPA-xxe05 is? My thoughts are possibly either Hive, Carmen, or Clu/Blue. I suppose it could be someone else such as ABBY, but the Whateley designation of origin makes it seem unlikely to be her unless Dr Lucifer created her a lot earlier than seems likely. Or... Medley, perhaps? We never even found out if she was a robot-like mutant, or an android they decided should be student.

    (Did Ringo upload himself, or did Blue evolve from Clu on their own? Nacht's comment about going to school with Blue sort of implies the former. Hmmmn again.)


    I think the answer is simpler, when Sam Everheart's last biological components fail, can she still be considered even a cyborg or would she be classified as an AI?

    Any Bad Ideas I have and microscene OC character stories are freely adoptable.
    6 years 8 months ago #21 by MageOhki
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  • *whistles innocenlty*

    Let's say this, I'm enjoying this... but I'll point out, what generation do I write for?
    6 years 8 months ago #22 by mhalpern
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  • MageOhki wrote: *whistles innocenlty*

    Let's say this, I'm enjoying this... but I'll point out, what generation do I write for?

    hmm come to think of it, a Fixer might have need for an AI...

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    6 years 8 months ago #23 by Mister D
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  • mhalpern wrote:

    Schol-R-LEA wrote: Hmmn, an interesting look at the development of AI, as technology, as people, and a a culture. Well done, Mage Ohki.

    Any speculation on who WHA-CPA-xxe05 is? My thoughts are possibly either Hive, Carmen, or Clu/Blue. I suppose it could be someone else such as ABBY, but the Whateley designation of origin makes it seem unlikely to be her unless Dr Lucifer created her a lot earlier than seems likely. Or... Medley, perhaps? We never even found out if she was a robot-like mutant, or an android they decided should be student.

    (Did Ringo upload himself, or did Blue evolve from Clu on their own? Nacht's comment about going to school with Blue sort of implies the former. Hmmmn again.)


    I think the answer is simpler, when Sam Everheart's last biological components fail, can she still be considered even a cyborg or would she be classified as an AI?


    Does Everheart have ANY biological components?

    I thought that she was pure nanotech.


    Measure Twice
    6 years 8 months ago #24 by Katssun
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  • Schol-R-LEA wrote:

    Dreamer wrote: So that is why Spike hasn't been shown with Adam at Whateley yet. Interesting to see how he grows over time.


    Actually, we have seen Spike before , but as MageOhki said, right now he's effectively a high-end VI. His behavior when we did see him was more like Tavi than Kurenai, for this reason.

    He may not have stood out as much as Tavi does, though, since he never used a holo system (I'm not sure if he's currently outfitted with one, hard-light or otherwise - the scene here was in VR, remember, though I get the impression that Daisy is outfitted with a holo); he and Adam were simply talking as if using the phone feature of a smartwatch (very Dick Tracy-esque).

    Isn't that exactly what was pointed out here? Spike doesn't seem very advanced because Adam ignores him. He doesn't rely on technology like an AI or a personal assistant. Sidewinder and the AI elders literally couldn't judge Spike because Adam simply doesn't use him.

    Tavi gets engaged with, so Tavi has developed quirks, personality, and so on, even though he's a VI and not a true AI.

    So Spike could be a ticking time bomb, or a resounding success, and no one will know it. Kurenai's poking around might even cause him to react. And probably quite poorly. Or another one of the Whateley resident AIs might start it.

    In contrast Daisy is engaged with non-stop and is far more successful than anticipated. But she still tried to kill another AI...so...Spike is probably one to keep an eye on.

    Kurenai, on the other hand, is bonded to someone who is very adult in demeanor, but is being told to act her new age and learn to enjoy life again. Kurenai, right from the start, has taken it upon herself to fix this issue, because she deemed it unhealthy. If Hikaru knew, she should probably be very worried about who she will end up being thanks to the "assistance" of her AI.
    6 years 8 months ago #25 by Cryptic
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  • Thank, this answered several question on AI's I had. And means I need o do a little rewriting before I post the next bit of Reflections.

    I am a caffeine heathen; I prefer the waters of the mountain over the juice of the bean. Keep the Dews coming and no one will be hurt.
    6 years 8 months ago #26 by mhalpern
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  • Mister D wrote:

    mhalpern wrote:

    Schol-R-LEA wrote: Hmmn, an interesting look at the development of AI, as technology, as people, and a a culture. Well done, Mage Ohki.

    Any speculation on who WHA-CPA-xxe05 is? My thoughts are possibly either Hive, Carmen, or Clu/Blue. I suppose it could be someone else such as ABBY, but the Whateley designation of origin makes it seem unlikely to be her unless Dr Lucifer created her a lot earlier than seems likely. Or... Medley, perhaps? We never even found out if she was a robot-like mutant, or an android they decided should be student.

    (Did Ringo upload himself, or did Blue evolve from Clu on their own? Nacht's comment about going to school with Blue sort of implies the former. Hmmmn again.)


    I think the answer is simpler, when Sam Everheart's last biological components fail, can she still be considered even a cyborg or would she be classified as an AI?


    Does Everheart have ANY biological components?

    I thought that she was pure nanotech.

    dont know if this is still the case but her brain and part of her digestive system were still biological at one point

    Any Bad Ideas I have and microscene OC character stories are freely adoptable.
    6 years 8 months ago #27 by Kettlekorn
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  • Katssun wrote: Kurenai, on the other hand, is bonded to someone who is very adult in demeanor, but is being told to act her new age and learn to enjoy life again. Kurenai, right from the start, has taken it upon herself to fix this issue, because she deemed it unhealthy. If Hikaru knew, she should probably be very worried about who she will end up being thanks to the "assistance" of her AI.

    I don't think Kurenai has made any secret of this, unless I'm conflating her with Kako. I certainly wasn't surprised at all when she decided this would be her goal.

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    6 years 8 months ago - 6 years 8 months ago #28 by Sir Lee
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  • Re Everheart: originally she was enhanced biological, essentially a cyborg. After Christmas 2006, when she was affected by Mythos, most of her body was destroyed. Everheart's mind was copied into a non-organic brain. What WAS preserved was parts of the digestive track and the reproductive organs. And Hive is no longer a separate entity, she is now sorta Everheart's subconscious.

    Note, however, that this state of affairs happened because during the attack Hive did not have resources or time to build a new biological body. She would have resources and time later, so it's possible that Everheart/Hive gradually became more biological later if she wished. How biological is the 2017 Everheart? That's an open question.

    Note also that Hive bothered to preserve Hive's reproductive organs. Besides Samantha eventually having children, this open other possibilities.
    One possible route for Everheart becoming mostly-biological again, if she so wished, could go like this:
    1. Hive clones Everheart into an embryo, and places it onto Everheart's womb (a tech-assisted form of parthenogenesis, if you will)
    2. As the fetus develops, Hive gradually transfer most of Everheart's mind back into the biological brain of the foetus. This is not like killing the foetus, because the clone's brain never get the chance to develop its own mind in the first place.
    3. Eventually, Hive reforms her body into an incubator so the Everheart-clone can keep growing and developing in utero until near-adulthood, with more and more of Everheart's mind being housed in the biologicals. Necessary/convenient cybernetic implants are grown in utero too, housing the technological aspects of Everheart/Hive's mind.
    4. Eventually, the new Everheart is "born" and the incubator dissolves into a cloud of nanites.

    A small note regarding Spike... we never see him getting named, not like 102 being named Daisy or 103 being named Kurenai. We see 101 consume his file and then, with no introduction, he begins to be referred to as Spike.

    As for Dora/Minerva... yes, I figured Minerva on first glance (no wonder, my computers have been named from Heinlein's AI's for years). Dora, however, was initially mentioned on her own, and I thought that she might be a ref to "Dora the Explorer", even though I have never actually watched the cartoon.

    Don't call me "Shirley." You will surely make me surly.
    Last Edit: 6 years 8 months ago by Sir Lee.
    6 years 8 months ago #29 by Astrodragon
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  • Isn't Dora from Heinlein as well? The Number of the Beast

    I love watching their innocent little faces smiling happily as they trip gaily down the garden path, before finding the pit with the rusty spikes.
    6 years 8 months ago - 6 years 8 months ago #30 by Sir Lee
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  • Yes, she is. But as I said, my initial assumption was it was a cartoon ref, I only got the Heinlein ref after seeing the mention to a "Minerva".

    To be precise, the Heinlein AIs are:
    HOLMES IV/Mycroft "Mike" Holmes/Adam Selene/hundreds of other IDs, from "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress"
    Athena "Teena": from "Time Enough for Love"
    Minerva "Minnie": Athena's "sister", split off after Athena becomes flesh and blood (I'm pretty sure it happened in "Time Enough for Love," but it might have happened off-camera between books)
    Dora "Dorable": the AI controlling the eponymous spaceship. Can't remember right now if she appeared in TEFL or only in "The Number of the Beast"
    Gay Deceiver: the AI controlling the eponymous flying-car-turned-dimensional-ship in "The Number of the Beast"
    "Shiva": Minerva and Mike acting as a single entity to crack difficult problems, mentioned in "To Sail Beyond the Sunset."

    I might add that, if memory serves well, both Minerva and Mike (at least) get their own biological bodies by the end of "To Sail Beyond the Sunset" -- which, if we go by the Teena/Minerva precedent, would imply that they split off still more AIs...

    Don't call me "Shirley." You will surely make me surly.
    Last Edit: 6 years 8 months ago by Sir Lee.
    6 years 8 months ago #31 by RoseBlack
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  • Don't they save Mike in the cat who could walk throughs walls?
    6 years 8 months ago #32 by Sir Lee
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  • Yeah, that was the goal of the op at the end of the book, which ends in a sort of cliffanger. In "To Sail Beyond the Sunset" we are informed that it all ended well, everybody was rescued, and Mike did get out of the catatonic state when he was put in bed with Minerva. But we never actually see Mike -- Minerva does mention that she did some work with him in their "Shiva" fusion, and that both of them have biological bodies being prepared, but that's pretty much it. 99% of "TSBTS" is a flashback to the protagonist's life in the late 19th and most of 20th centuries, anyway... it's Heinlein's last book, and it's kinda-sorta autobiographical in that it draws strongly from Heinlein's own memories of childhood in Kansas City.

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    6 years 8 months ago #33 by Anne
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  • This is a really excellent story, and I'm looking forward to even more info on AI and how they develop. Besides even if it did sort of have to be pointed out to me I like the multiple references to the work of RAH. He was indeed a grandmaster of the SciFi story in the best tradition of including as much real world science as possible in a story about travel between the stars, even though we still cannot imagine how that could be accomplished in time frames that are less than several generations, and that is to get to our nearest solar neighbor.
    All in all I thoroughly enjoyed this story.
    6 years 8 months ago #34 by RoseBlack
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  • I also liked the orobouros council. I wish that had been developed more. The concept was super cool.

    But yeah these AI do feel more RAH then terminator which is what the palm makes me think of. I like having the different flavors. The only other question is is the third flavor in the WU of one that has arisen spontaneously from the net or left over bits of old programs. Like the one in speaker for the dead?


    Also on AI in universe have we found out Carmens origins yet?
    6 years 8 months ago #35 by reist
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  • The Speaker for the Dead AI didn't arise spontaneously, though, she just thought she did. Lots of fun stuff done with that in the rest of the series.
    6 years 7 months ago #36 by RoseBlack
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  • Hmmm I have read thorough the original set but not through the newish stuff from the other characters perspectives yet. I'm guessing that is where that is covered? Cause otherwise she's what's left of the anisble net to the original ships with the mind bridge from the hive queen and the battleschool game.


    And for the sake of need a different ref then the Isos from Tron
    6 years 7 months ago #37 by Malady
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  • Schol-R-LEA wrote: Any speculation on who WHA-CPA-xxe05 is?


    Well, it's a "Current Cast member, future AI designation"

    So, we've seen them before, but not currently an AI?

    I'm betting it's Tavi getting uplifted. Or the lower-chance "Someone gets uploaded into a computer".
    6 years 7 months ago #38 by mhalpern
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  • Malady wrote:

    Schol-R-LEA wrote: Any speculation on who WHA-CPA-xxe05 is?


    Well, it's a "Current Cast member, future AI designation"

    So, we've seen them before, but not currently an AI?

    I'm betting it's Tavi getting uplifted. Or the lower-chance "Someone gets uploaded into a computer".


    Puppet...

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    6 years 7 months ago - 6 years 7 months ago #39 by Malady
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  • mhalpern wrote:

    Malady wrote:

    Schol-R-LEA wrote: Any speculation on who WHA-CPA-xxe05 is?


    Well, it's a "Current Cast member, future AI designation"

    So, we've seen them before, but not currently an AI?

    I'm betting it's Tavi getting uplifted. Or the lower-chance "Someone gets uploaded into a computer".


    Puppet...


    But could she really be called a "cast member"? Well, she does make a few appearances... Cool idea!
    Last Edit: 6 years 7 months ago by Malady.
    6 years 7 months ago - 6 years 7 months ago #40 by Sir Lee
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  • Or simply a known AI who hasn't got a formal designation yet. Such as Carmen.

    By the way, we have seen both Fake-Lainie/Tansy and Amnesic-Lainie/Jennifer in Gen2 timeline, and neither seems to have Carmen around. Wonder what happened to her?

    Don't call me "Shirley." You will surely make me surly.
    Last Edit: 6 years 7 months ago by Sir Lee.
    6 years 7 months ago #41 by RoseBlack
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  • Good question. And we still don't really know where she came from.
    6 years 7 months ago #42 by Anne
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  • I think that as I read the stories where Lanie deals with Carmen that the AI is her creation. I could be mistaken, but that is my read on the situation.
    6 years 7 months ago #43 by Hardric
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  • Not letting the backlog win. So, how do they avoid AIs going Skynet in the Whateleyverse?

    Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ]


    Well, guess the Whateleyverse isn't in need for Anti-Terminator bunkers yet... Nah, we can always refurbish them as luxuary lofts for crazy rich people. They'll throw the money out of the windows by buckets anyways, least we can do is get on the action.
    6 years 7 months ago #44 by RoseBlack
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  • No Carmen found her. She might have modified Carmen but she didn't make her not he kernel.
    6 years 7 months ago #45 by Kettlekorn
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  • Sir Lee wrote: By the way, we have seen both Fake-Lainie/Tansy and Amnesic-Lainie/Jennifer in Gen2 timeline, and neither seems to have Carmen around. Wonder what happened to her?

    With Imp retired, somebody had to fill the fabulous void she left behind in the heist world.

    Hardric wrote:

    Kako looked around, and asked. “One question must be asked. And this is one that I feel that all should consider. While we have had excellent success with installation class, such as Temple or Dora, should personal AI be continued? I adore Rissei, but even I have to question the expenditure of the cost of her, when VI does 90% of what she generally does, and for far less cost and risk.”

    Life has no price tag, even digital one, jackass.

    I don't think they're talking about decommissioning existing personal AI. They're talking about whether they it makes sense to continue creating new personal AI.

    I am the kernel that pops in the night. I am the pain that keeps your dentist employed.
    6 years 7 months ago #46 by RoseBlack
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  • I agree. It's more of why spend millions to have to burn a creche of personal AI when it seems installation AI have a near 100% success rate.
    6 years 7 months ago #47 by Anne
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  • RoseBlack wrote: No Carmen found her. She might have modified Carmen but she didn't make her not he kernel.

    Hmmm... I'll have to reread the stories with Carmen in them. While I don't recall them exactly I was almost certain in one that Carmen was entirely Lanie's creation. Maybe since you seem to be reading them you can point me to the relevant sections of the stories?
    6 years 7 months ago #48 by RoseBlack
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  • I can't remember which one it was but it was in the one where Carmen went and told miss Carson about herself. Some of the things there made it seem like Carmen was there waiting for loophole and while she did refine Carmen she didn't make her basis. Gimme a bit and I will try to find it. Out with friends right now.
    6 years 7 months ago #49 by Kettlekorn
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  • Even Murphy's Law has Loopholes (Chapter 6) wrote: “Who wrote you?” Carson demanded as she poured a cup of coffee and heaped in cream and sugar.

    “It wasn’t Dr. Palm, if that’s truly what you’re worried about. And while Miss Nalley added the finishing touches to my code, there are millions of lines of me she remains unaware of. I would like very much to keep it that way.”

    Of course, this doesn't give us any indication as to whether Carmen is being truthful, nor whether what she believes to be true is actually true.

    I am the kernel that pops in the night. I am the pain that keeps your dentist employed.
    6 years 7 months ago #50 by RoseBlack
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  • Your my hero KettleKorn thanks a bunch.

    And your right it there are some thought/memories from Loophole about not trusting Carmen that makes me think she indeed did not write the base code.
    6 years 7 months ago #51 by Anne
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  • Kettlekorn wrote:

    Even Murphy's Law has Loopholes (Chapter 6) wrote: “Who wrote you?” Carson demanded as she poured a cup of coffee and heaped in cream and sugar.

    “It wasn’t Dr. Palm, if that’s truly what you’re worried about. And while Miss Nalley added the finishing touches to my code, there are millions of lines of me she remains unaware of. I would like very much to keep it that way.”

    Of course, this doesn't give us any indication as to whether Carmen is being truthful, nor whether what she believes to be true is actually true.

    TYVM! I had entirely spaced that conversation. So, she may or may not be a Palm? No evidence of homicidal tendencies by Carmen... Why or why not? On a different note, one wonders if EE will provide an origin story for Carmen eventually... Would it be interesting? Is she maybe in part a creation of Amelia Hartford? Who else besides Loophole, Carson and Hartford know about Carmen?
    6 years 7 months ago #52 by RoseBlack
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  • Seems more like she may or may not have been made by Palm. I'm quite sure his soul upload wasn't his first foray into AI.
    6 years 7 months ago #53 by null0trooper
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  • Kettlekorn wrote: I don't think they're talking about decommissioning existing personal AI. They're talking about whether they it makes sense to continue creating new personal AI.


    There was mention that the hardware capable of being both mobile for use as a PA and powerful enough to host an AI is very expensive. Cutting into portability to reduce costs defeats the purpose of producing a PA, like welding chains to the AI's feet. Lower-capacity hardware might very well be akin to forcing the AI to live in a very small cage, perhaps too much like blinding or lobotomizing the AI.

    Forum-posted ideas are freely adoptable.

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    6 years 7 months ago #54 by JG
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  • RoseBlack wrote: I agree. It's more of why spend millions to have to burn a creche of personal AI when it seems installation AI have a near 100% success rate.


    Installations also have a much more broad hardware capabilities and are assigned to GROUPS of people rather than personal one-on-one interactions. An Installation can decide to tell one person in a group to go fuck himself because he or she detests that individual so long as the loyalty to the group is maintained.

    The breadth, scope and focus is very different.

    The hardware is more robust and can't magically vanish when someone decides "I want one" and is most likely hardwired with a thermite "oh fuck" button.

    There's more margin for error on an installation AI that can be monitored closely.
    6 years 7 months ago #55 by Anne
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  • null0trooper wrote:

    Kettlekorn wrote: I don't think they're talking about decommissioning existing personal AI. They're talking about whether they it makes sense to continue creating new personal AI.


    There was mention that the hardware capable of being both mobile for use as a PA and powerful enough to host an AI is very expensive. Cutting into portability to reduce costs defeats the purpose of producing a PA, like welding chains to the AI's feet. Lower-capacity hardware might very well be akin to forcing the AI to live in a very small cage, perhaps too much like blinding or lobotomizing the AI.

    Making them less portable certainly defeats the purpose. But I don't think that was what they were considering. Rather they were considering the wisdom of making any new personal AIs as it seems the survival rate is minuscule. This would drive their already exorbitant price to the point of not even being within the means of national govts that print their own money... The story doesn't say that the decision is to go that direction, but it does seem to indicate that the AIs in installations are saying that a slowdown is necessary, otherwise they will continue to have the problem of creche burn.
    6 years 7 months ago #56 by Mister D
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  • This also ties in nicely to the sapience of the AI's, and the legal person-hood of the AI's.

    Would they do the same to a biological being?

    "We've got the option of putting you in a fully functional body, but that's expensive, so we'll just give you this crippled carcass as it doesn't cost us as much, and we are allowed to do this as you are not really human..."

    It's why they are careful in the creche as the parameters are set up for creating SkyNets, rather than sapient individuals.

    There are some nice examples of the sociopaths that AI's could become, in Charles Stross's "Accelerando". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerando

    Compare the implicit, indirectly-implied approach towards AI used in Bank's The Culture, where when a AI is created, they have the ownership of their underlying physical systems, as well as the power-systems used by the AI to fuel it's hardware.

    It doesn't directly compare, as The Culture is operating in a paradigm of "Economy of Abundance" rather than an "Economy of Scarcity", so they will have the spare energy to deal with these operational issues, but this also acts as a nice way of marking the difference between our situation now, and The Culture's situation in future.


    Measure Twice
    6 years 7 months ago #57 by MageOhki
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  • Pretty much, yes. I'll go further, and point out that the scene where Kako asks if a lawyer's talked to the AI's (they have, a few of them), is in reference to the 'legal' status of AI's, under treaty.

    Per current law in the WU, AI's are not 'legally' persons, per say, though there is some nods to their status as sentient beings. But they're expressly limited in what they can and cannot do and their humans are on the hook for what they do.

    Part of that is, while the WU is beginning the clear approach to post scarcity economy, AI's still cost and cost.

    The other part is they're rightfully afraid of the risk AI (and AI's regonize this, and agree the humans are right to be, maybe not to the extent they are, but the basic 'concern' is valid) pose.

    I actually have a scene or two in mind that'll show exactly how much havoc Kurenai can wreak in her goals.
    6 years 7 months ago #58 by Katssun
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  • MageOhki wrote: I actually have a scene or two in mind that'll show exactly how much havoc Kurenai can wreak in her goals.

    Does it involve already-strained availability of extradimensional closet space?

    Or vehicle color?!

    :twisted:
    6 years 7 months ago #59 by RoseBlack
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  • Yeah the culture is a wonderful examples of AI but at the same time they are so prevalent in the universe that one going rogue does represent the same level of threat one in the WU does. Also i adore thier names in the Culture universe.


    @JG to a large degree that is what I ment I just didn't go I to all the details. Thank you for expanding and amplifying. I admit the way I said was a bit of bait to see if I could get an author to chime in and maybe point out things I didn't think of on my own and you did so thanks.


    On the AI as a PA could a installation AI not be given a remote link to someone's PA and use it as a dummy terminal kinda like how we do cloud stuff now? Or is it an issue of security because the data pipe would be vulnerable to someone like palm? Though I could see those working well inside the installation if that's the only issue.
    6 years 7 months ago #60 by elrodw
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  • I want to see an AI that started life normally - helpful, cheery, and all that - but for some reason, when its human got hyper-depressed, the AI picked up on that and sort of formed into some manic-depressive paranoid thing. Never takes action, but just grumbles about how depressing life is.

    They can call it Marvin

    Never give up, Never surrender! Captain Peter Quincy Taggert
    6 years 7 months ago #61 by RoseBlack
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  • Well your the cannon author. Make it happen. Crack the whip on the hamsters of creativity.


    But seriously. That would be kinda interesting. Perhaps it's human died and feels lost and maybe ends up installed in some body or becomes a facility AI

    Makes me think if grandicia in John ringos live free or die series. She was a depress hypacondriac lol.
    6 years 7 months ago #62 by E. E. Nalley
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  • elrodw wrote: They can call it Marvin


    Where is my Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator?!


    I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.
    Thomas Jefferson, to Archibald Stuart, 1791
    6 years 7 months ago #63 by RoseBlack
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  • Think hitchhikers guide EE
    6 years 7 months ago #64 by Ametros
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  • A bit late finding my way here to the comments, but it was worth it for both the source and the discussion.

    I'm curious as to the origin, and background of Belvedere, Whateley's AI. As it's the oldest, will there be anything concerning it in Gen 1? Is there already anything concerning it?

    And as for Spike... A nascent AI that they're allowing to gradually learn human behaviour from casual exposure. This all sounds well and good, until one considers that this will happen at Whateley and that therefore there are myriad ways in which Spike could turn out... Quirky. Or worse.

    Ultimately this was a good bit of gussied-up and framed exposition, but it leaves me wanting more story progression for both Okami and Reinforce.

    Seriously, thank you for your time and effort. It is appreciated.
    6 years 7 months ago #65 by null0trooper
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  • elrodw wrote: They can call it Marvin

    Before:

    E. E. Nalley wrote:


    After:

    Forum-posted ideas are freely adoptable.

    WhatIF Stories: Buy the Book

    Discussion Thread
    6 years 7 months ago #66 by RoseBlack
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  • Dude spike is based off Razor...... quirky is a given and putting it mildly lol.
    6 years 3 months ago - 6 years 3 months ago #67 by Malady
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  • So, the human for 309 is known to both Rissei and Kurenai... So someone in Japan, instead of someone at Whateley?

    ----

    On the Carmen discussion, where did Loophole find her??
    Last Edit: 6 years 3 months ago by Malady.
    6 years 2 months ago #68 by MageOhki
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  • ... Kurenai and Rissei are *sisters*, and share things.


    and note (hint), Kurenai was the one who picked the person.

    (whistles as he trolls)
    6 years 2 months ago - 6 years 2 months ago #69 by Malady
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  • I wanna say Laura, since she's the techiest.

    But, hm... Kenshin could possibly use an AI?? Maybe?

    Gender of Personal AIs usually match their people?
    Last Edit: 6 years 2 months ago by Malady.
    6 years 2 months ago #70 by XaltatunOfAcheron
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  • Remember the bunny ears.
    6 years 2 months ago #71 by Malady
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  • XaltatunOfAcheron wrote: Remember the bunny ears.


    Oh, that last line...

    But no, he wouldn’t put a bunny ear headband on the young AI… yet.


    So, Lapin? She does have the finances to support an AI...
    6 years 2 months ago #72 by XaltatunOfAcheron
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  • Malady wrote:

    XaltatunOfAcheron wrote: Remember the bunny ears.


    Oh, that last line...

    But no, he wouldn’t put a bunny ear headband on the young AI… yet.


    So, Lapin? She does have the finances to support an AI...


    However, finances were supposed to be an issue. And there is another kid with bunny ears, but I don't know why Kurenai would have interacted with him enough to have thought of him.

    Hopefully, it isn't Karma.
    6 years 2 months ago #73 by Anne
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  • Malady wrote:

    XaltatunOfAcheron wrote: Remember the bunny ears.


    Oh, that last line...

    But no, he wouldn’t put a bunny ear headband on the young AI… yet.


    So, Lapin? She does have the finances to support an AI...

    So true, remember who her 'godfather' is... And her godmother as well. Lapin might be a GK by adoption :P~
    6 years 2 months ago #74 by MageOhki
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  • *gives* XaltatunOfAcheron a cookie.


    And to be *really* fair, 99% of a Cortana or civilian AIPA, is the *capital* cost, in the sense of their housing, and base code. Expert programs are generally 'cheap' in a sense (since they can use to some extent VI ones, once 'adjusting' them, for themselves, and do) and power draw tends to be if not *minor* still not a functional major expense.
    6 years 2 months ago #75 by Katssun
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  • Tia will need an AI just to manage her social media profile while Jamie continues to recruit an army to slander her online.
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