Notice

The forum is in read only mode.

× Feel free to discuss any typical forums accepted topic here, Whateley or otherwise. Let's avoid the usual suspects: politics, religion, and so forth that tend to result in flame wars and angered forums readers. Other topics will be considered fair game unless they prove to be too volatile, at which point we'll use Devisor created anti-flame chemicals on the subject.

Question My pet hate when it comes to TG fiction

Start
Prev
1
Next
End

7 years 8 months ago - 7 years 8 months ago #1 by konzill

konzill
Topic Author

Posts: 500

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

There is one recurring trope in tg fiction that makes me jump up and down every time I encounter it: here is a recent example:

It all started when I was 12. You see I was quite short for my age and very skinny,

At 12 most boys are shorter then most girls damn it. The reason being that girls are already hitting their teenage growth spurt. True this doesn't show up here as Whateley protagonists are rarely this young.

Last Edit: 7 years 8 months ago by konzill.

7 years 8 months ago #2 by JG

Posts: 1454

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

It all started when I was 12. You see I was too goddamned big and clumsy for my age...

7 years 8 months ago #3 by Valentine

Valentine

Posts: 3121

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: 17 Aug 1966

It all started when I was 12. You see I was quite short for my age, that was because I had lost my legs at the knees.

Don't Drick and Drive.

7 years 8 months ago #4 by Yolandria

Yolandria

Posts: 595

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

Legs

It all started when I was 12. You see I was quite short for my age, that was because I had lost my legs at the knees.

Mistress of the shelter for lost and redeemable Woobies!

7 years 8 months ago #5 by Kristin Darken

Kristin Darken

Posts: 3898

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

Most adults have a poor time remembering things relative to their ages during the puberty development years. I think we, quite literally, are unable to reconcile our sensory recordings and memories of those years with our adult developed perceptions. We remember events and things that happened but our evaluation of people (and especially self) in that time frame is very subjective.

We'll remember the extremes... being the smallest in a gym class. Being the tallest on the basketball team. Being the first to get hair in our armpits. The first girl to grow breasts. But far too many of us remember being the smallest. Or ganglyist. Or clumsiest. Or whatever...

But a lot of those things are arbitrary elements... I started Kindergarden at 4 ... because my birthday was early enough in the fall that I would be 5 shortly after starting... and it was possible for people to be another couple weeks younger than me and still get in for that year. But MOST of the students on my grade level were anywhere from a couple months to almost a year older. That set me up to always 'appear' to be behind the curve developmentally. And my learning skills didn't help, because I was always taking courses ahead of the average... not outrageously so, but in combination with being one of the younger students in my grade and taking classes that most people took in a higher grade... it 'seemed' like I was way behind.

Was I really? Probably not... but it would be easy to remember taking that Chemistry class my freshman year filled with mostly Juniors and a handful of Seniors and then having to take Gym a different period than other freshman because of where the Chemistry class fell in the schedule... and ending up with most of the varsity football seniors? Was I much smaller than those guys? Hah... it was a nightmare.

Easy to see how it happens... but also easy to see how it would be frustrating to a reader.

*My* pet peeves in TG fiction are:
1. not understanding how hormones work - if you want something to magickally change someone, use magick as your gimmick, if you're going to use science or real world methods, make sure you understand how things really work. Hormones don't turn you into a girl, even if you start taking them at prescription dosages as a pre-teen. And 'most' of the things they WILL do are extremely limited unless you DO start taking them at prescription dosages as a pre-teen (before puberty shapes things the other direction). Stories otherwise just result in people self-medicating in the hope that they'll get results that are outrageous in the real world. And shattering that hope when they don't.

2. if you're going to use bra or other clothing sizes to describe the changes to your tranformee's torso, pull up a lingerie store's sizing charts and make sure you reference them to understand what's going on. Cup sizes (letters) are a direct result of increase in breast volume - while band sizes (numbers) are a measure of the circumference of the chest. So many TG fiction stories have an average sized guy... say 40-42 inch chest become a busty bimbo with 52 HH... which yes, means really large breasts (HH cups are about 4.5 to 5 inches displacement outward from the chest wall.. ie an increase of 9" to the circum of the chest purely due to breast volume).... but it also means that the chest those breasts are attached to has also grown by ten inches in circumference. Meaning, the medium/large size male chest is now a 3XL sized torso with large breasts. And if doing a measurements listing... would be listing a top measure of 66" (52" plus 9" for HH plus a default 5" which is part of the standardizing process of accounting for the difference between band and chest). In 'most' cases, unless your change does skeletal level changes... the chest measurement in a male to female transformation is going to stay the same. You want a guy who wears a large shirt (42-44" chest) to go to 36-26-36? As a C cup? that means that band size + 3" (C-cup) + 5" is 36" -> band size is 28" ... so 28C bra size is a 36" chest, but it means 14-16" smaller rib cage circ before you add back on those breasts (which, btw, is why an A or B cup is far more common for that size body).

Ya... obviously a pet peeve, eh?

Fate guard you and grant you a Light to brighten your Way.

7 years 8 months ago - 7 years 8 months ago #6 by JG

Posts: 1454

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

Considering 39 E-F knockers on a 5'9" woman represents "fucking huge?"

I mean damn near as big as her head huge.

Each.

I don't think people understand just what the dimensions they are proposing look like.

Last Edit: 7 years 8 months ago by JG.

7 years 8 months ago #7 by Kristin Darken

Kristin Darken

Posts: 3898

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

To be fair, I'm actually simplifying... measurements for proper fitting bras are one of the more complicated bits of insanity about womens' clothing and the fact that so many women are wearing the wrong size bras means its just as confusing as for those wishing they had breast tissue that needs a bra to support it.

But yes, an E cup is a very large breast, but probably not too much difference proportionally than a C cup on a 28-30" chest. Unless she's in the wrong size bra and is actually a lower band size but using band size to step up overall bra size instead of finding the large cup size (most stores won't have cup sizes over DD or E, which is more or less the same thing - so women will be buy what's available)

Fate guard you and grant you a Light to brighten your Way.

7 years 8 months ago #8 by Valentine

Valentine

Posts: 3121

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: 17 Aug 1966

My pet peeve for TG fiction is the guy that has a wig, makeup, and a padded bra strapped on, and is now either a supermodel or can pass as female well enough to fool everyone, even in intimate settings.

Or the "average" kid that is a straight A student, class president, star athlete, musical virtuoso, and has saved all the puppies, and a secret crossdresser or TG or in love with someone that is a secret TG.

Don't Drick and Drive.

7 years 8 months ago #9 by null0trooper

null0trooper

Posts: 3032

Gender: Male

Birthdate: 19 Oct 1964

konzill wrote: There is one recurring trope in tg fiction that makes me jump up and down every time I encounter it: here is a recent example:

It all started when I was 12. You see I was quite short for my age and very skinny,

At 12 most boys are shorter then most girls damn it. The reason being that girls are already hitting their teenage growth spurt. True this doesn't show up here as Whateley protagonists are rarely this young.

Boys don't normally compare their heights to girls at that age.

Signed,
the second-shortest male 8th grader in my entire class that year

Forum-posted ideas are freely adoptable.

WhatIF Stories: Buy the Book

Discussion Thread

7 years 8 months ago #10 by Domoviye

Domoviye

Posts: 2428

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

I always hated how when the change was unwanted the mtf character almost always becomes a submissive. Even if they were really forceful and strong willed before, the moment a man, or woman, threatens them or spanks them, or gives them a forceful kiss, their backbone becomes as strong as a wet noodle and they'll take anything that happens to them.
Ugh.

7 years 8 months ago #11 by E. E. Nalley

E. E. Nalley

Posts: 2005

Gender: Male

Birthdate: 10 Mar 1970

I really dislike weak characters period. They can have flaws, but writing someone who lets others use them like a kleenex, well I probably don't have the chops for it.

I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.
Thomas Jefferson, to Archibald Stuart, 1791

7 years 8 months ago - 7 years 8 months ago #12 by konzill

konzill
Topic Author

Posts: 500

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

I can imagine how the ease with which story characters pass, sometimes without even trying, must be incredibly frustrating to read about for anyone who wants to pass and can't.

Last Edit: 7 years 8 months ago by konzill.

7 years 8 months ago - 7 years 8 months ago #13 by Rose Bunny

Rose Bunny

Posts: 1956

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

I think that most of your beef is due to the fact that you see the title character , let's call him "Bob", comparing himself to a female character, for example "Tiffany". At 12 Bob won't be bemoaning the fact he is shorter and slighter than Tiffany, rather that he is much smaller than Jim, Pete, Gus, Ralph, and Frank...

Unless Tiffany is abnormally tall, for a girl, Bob would be comparing himself to his male peers.

High-Priestess of the Order of Spirit-Chan

Last Edit: 7 years 8 months ago by Rose Bunny.

7 years 8 months ago #14 by null0trooper

null0trooper

Posts: 3032

Gender: Male

Birthdate: 19 Oct 1964

Rose Bunny wrote: Unless Tiffany is abnormally tall, for a girl, Bob would be comparing himself to his male peers.

Poor Tiffany will be catching so much flack from her "friends" in the girls' locker room that she won't even notice Bob, except as "yet another guy who won't date me because I'm tall".

Forum-posted ideas are freely adoptable.

WhatIF Stories: Buy the Book

Discussion Thread

7 years 8 months ago #15 by Malady

Malady

Posts: 3893

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

Side-note: The only character that had a height complex or whatever, was Ayla, 'cause David was taller than him, etc.

Archives: Rubberjohn's Fanfic + CrystalHall + Mittfh's Wordcount Spreadsheet

My Patreon. But, support the Crystal Hall 1st?

7 years 8 months ago #16 by Rose Bunny

Rose Bunny

Posts: 1956

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

null0trooper wrote:
Rose Bunny wrote: Unless Tiffany is abnormally tall, for a girl, Bob would be comparing himself to his male peers.

Poor Tiffany will be catching so much flack from her "friends" in the girls' locker room that she won't even notice Bob, except as "yet another guy who won't date me because I'm tall".

Moot point, because Bob becomes Bobbi, and eventually will be Tiffany's best friend.

High-Priestess of the Order of Spirit-Chan

7 years 8 months ago #17 by elrodw

elrodw

Posts: 3263

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

Rose Bunny wrote:
null0trooper wrote:
Rose Bunny wrote: Unless Tiffany is abnormally tall, for a girl, Bob would be comparing himself to his male peers.

Poor Tiffany will be catching so much flack from her "friends" in the girls' locker room that she won't even notice Bob, except as "yet another guy who won't date me because I'm tall".
Moot point, because Bob becomes Bobbi, and eventually will be Tiffany's best friend.

And Bobbi is the submissive one to Tiffany's stronger, more dominant personality, and eventually the two will become lesbian lovers. Bobbi's parents, once rabid trans-hating bigots, discover the errors of their beliefs, thoroughly accept Bobbi's change, and love the fact that Bobbi and Tiffany have found such deep abiding love.

Never give up, Never surrender! Captain Peter Quincy Taggert

7 years 8 months ago #18 by Astrodragon

Astrodragon

Posts: 1998

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

elrodw wrote:
Rose Bunny wrote:
null0trooper wrote:
Rose Bunny wrote: Unless Tiffany is abnormally tall, for a girl, Bob would be comparing himself to his male peers.

Poor Tiffany will be catching so much flack from her "friends" in the girls' locker room that she won't even notice Bob, except as "yet another guy who won't date me because I'm tall".
Moot point, because Bob becomes Bobbi, and eventually will be Tiffany's best friend.

And Bobbi is the submissive one to Tiffany's stronger, more dominant personality, and eventually the two will become lesbian lovers. Bobbi's parents, once rabid trans-hating bigots, discover the errors of their beliefs, thoroughly accept Bobbi's change, and love the fact that Bobbi and Tiffany have found such deep abiding love.

Can I have some of your meds? They seem really good!

I love watching their innocent little faces smiling happily as they trip gaily down the garden path, before finding the pit with the rusty spikes.

7 years 8 months ago #19 by Malady

Malady

Posts: 3893

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

But in reality, it's due to Tiffany's Psychic Powers forcing things.

Archives: Rubberjohn's Fanfic + CrystalHall + Mittfh's Wordcount Spreadsheet

My Patreon. But, support the Crystal Hall 1st?

7 years 8 months ago #20 by Rose Bunny

Rose Bunny

Posts: 1956

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

no! Bad Mal, Bad Mal.

High-Priestess of the Order of Spirit-Chan

7 years 8 months ago - 7 years 8 months ago #21 by Malady

Malady

Posts: 3893

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

What's 'your' explanation then?

Whoops. I forgot some stuff. I thought Bobbi (Not Boobi, lol) started dominant. Nvm. Things make sense without Psi if he has no personality change. I needed the Psi to explain that.

PowerOfLove is great!

I thought this was sarcasm 'cause Elrod, and

and it's sorta a topic to snark about:

elrodw wrote: Bobbi's parents, once rabid trans-hating bigots, discover the errors of their beliefs, thoroughly accept Bobbi's change, and love the fact that Bobbi and Tiffany have found such deep abiding love.

Archives: Rubberjohn's Fanfic + CrystalHall + Mittfh's Wordcount Spreadsheet

My Patreon. But, support the Crystal Hall 1st?

Last Edit: 7 years 8 months ago by Malady.

7 years 8 months ago #22 by Yolandria

Yolandria

Posts: 595

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

And after Bobbi and Tiffany run away together. They get hit by a train and Bobbi looses her legs.

Mistress of the shelter for lost and redeemable Woobies!

7 years 8 months ago #23 by Polk Kitsune

Polk Kitsune

Posts: 431

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

Valentine wrote: My pet peeve for TG fiction is the guy that has a wig, makeup, and a padded bra strapped on, and is now either a supermodel or can pass as female well enough to fool everyone, even in intimate settings.

Or the "average" kid that is a straight A student, class president, star athlete, musical virtuoso, and has saved all the puppies, and a secret crossdresser or TG or in love with someone that is a secret TG.

Yeeeeeeaaaaaah. Though the second one is a bit of a Mary Sue effect, but yeah. It seems rather easy for the TG to just disguise, and be incredibly beautiful. It's almost too easy, while in real life, it's not so easy.

Though one might say it's also part f the fantasy of the TG. That it feels right and pretty to be on the other side. But that should come with efforts, desire to be pretty, and work for it. Makeup would take time to try, experiment, and see what works best. There's voice training to get the right sound, walking the right way, and I'm sure I'm missing and misrepresenting quite a bit on it. It shouldn't be 'easy'.

Hrm. Might be interesting to see someone a bit less easy fitting into it. Maybe even jealous.

Here in Whateley though, a lot of it is waved off with being an Exemplar or a glamour effect, but that comes with it's own bag of surprises...

Personal pet-peeves though? Hrmmm...

When the Mary Sue levels are high enough to make the main character untouchable at times, and not face any repercussion is one thing. There's a difference between fantasy, and forcing that much disbelief.

But I've also seen stories where once the TG happens, the character just hops on into it like like it's their every wishes come true. Like there's no repercussions, that everyone loves them, go out on dates with past friends who just accepts everything without a second thought. It's incredibly shallow. Even worse of if it's just a story to show off a kink, and nothing more. I find those stories to be a real shame. It just makes light of something that should have consequences, reactions... Even if someone was like Chaka or Megagirl where they really wished for the changes, it doesn't automatically make everything your life better. There are things you can't predict until you're in that situation, and not everything is as you wished for. I don't expect everything to be doom and gloom either, but there's a balance to be had.

My story: Evershade: Reforming

7 years 8 months ago #24 by null0trooper

null0trooper

Posts: 3032

Gender: Male

Birthdate: 19 Oct 1964

Yolandria wrote: And after Bobbi and Tiffany run away together. They get hit by a train and Bobbi looses her legs.

Luckily for them, the local hospital has just received a set of cybernetic legs that are stronger and sexier than Bobbi's original equipment, and the surgical team is in need of a test subject!

Forum-posted ideas are freely adoptable.

WhatIF Stories: Buy the Book

Discussion Thread

7 years 8 months ago #25 by Rose Bunny

Rose Bunny

Posts: 1956

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

Why is everyone so mean to Bobbi and Tiffany, and when will they show up in the micro-scenes topic?

High-Priestess of the Order of Spirit-Chan

7 years 8 months ago - 7 years 8 months ago #26 by Schol-R-LEA

Schol-R-LEA

Posts: 1766

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: 24 Oct 1968

Rose Bunny wrote: Why is everyone so mean to Bobbi and Tiffany, and when will they show up in the micro-scenes topic?

Sometime after we get to see Eugene Tucker graduate high school.

Yeah, I am still waiting on that. But then, I am also hoping to see part #5 of Selafane (hell, Dave Stone's web page doesn't even have 1-4 on it any more, though I do have it archived myself I think - EDIT oh hey, look, I do, let me zip it and attach it for those unfamiliar), so unrealistic expectations are present.

I guess unfinished stories are a pet peeve of mine. Which is pretty damn hypocritical of me given my own less than stellar track record regarding following through.

Seriously, people are starting to think Ellen is dead or something. Sir Lee, I know you were a regular on the (now defunct) Tuckerspawn forum, have you heard anything?

Out, damnéd Spot! Bad Doggy!

Attachments:

Last Edit: 7 years 8 months ago by Schol-R-LEA.

7 years 8 months ago #27 by Anne

Anne

Posts: 1411

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

I guess one of my pet peeves about TG fiction is a MtF who becomes a lesbian. Dude if you like girls stay a dude. Okay yeah I know you want to wear that LBD and look good in it... But it does somewhat amaze me that so much TG fiction has men becoming women to become lesbians. I could see wanting to become a woman because you were attracted to men, because only a small section of the male homosexual population is attracted to men as men. But if you pass well you can attract any man. Because as we all know men are notoriously indiscriminate about the looks of women when they think they are going to get to dip their junk.

Adopt my story: here
Nowhereville discussion

7 years 8 months ago #28 by Rose Bunny

Rose Bunny

Posts: 1956

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

Anne, I really don't have a problem with that. It's not a given that your orientation will change because your gender does. Heck, look at the Whateley changelings. We have them in all camps. Guys that become girls and start liking guys, guys that become girls and stay liking girls, and guys that become girls and like both. I can't see a reason to dislike a character because of sexual orientation.

Unless you mean straight men that purposely become girls, solely to be a lesbian. I actually don't see all that much of that, TBH. I see mostly accidental or unwilling TF when I read it. Then again, I guess I read from places where it's more of a Transgendered individual writing wish fulfillment, becoming what they wish they were, instead of a fetishy thing. I dunno

High-Priestess of the Order of Spirit-Chan

7 years 8 months ago #29 by Esar

Esar

Posts: 328

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

I don't exactly know how to answer you Anne to be honest.

others will certainly be able to elaborate more than me but basicly I don't think that's how transexualism works ... to say the least.

7 years 8 months ago #30 by Malady

Malady

Posts: 3893

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

Schol-R-LEA wrote: I guess unfinished stories are a pet peeve of mine. Which is pretty damn hypocritical of me given my own less than stellar track record regarding following through.

Well, it'd only be hypocrisy if you didn't want to finish your stories? Else you'd be sympathetic and, like most readers, wanting complete stories instead of cliffhangers.

...

If Bobbi and Tiffany get to the Micros... Would they be in the rare category of... No, wait, they're not non-mutants... But cyborgs are rare.

Archives: Rubberjohn's Fanfic + CrystalHall + Mittfh's Wordcount Spreadsheet

My Patreon. But, support the Crystal Hall 1st?

7 years 8 months ago #31 by Rose Bunny

Rose Bunny

Posts: 1956

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

null0trooper wrote:
Yolandria wrote: And after Bobbi and Tiffany run away together. They get hit by a train and Bobbi looses her legs.

Luckily for them, the local hospital has just received a set of cybernetic legs that are stronger and sexier than Bobbi's original equipment, and the surgical team is in need of a test subject!

Nah, Bobbi just discovers She's now a Regen 5, they grow back quickly.

High-Priestess of the Order of Spirit-Chan

7 years 8 months ago #32 by Valentine

Valentine

Posts: 3121

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: 17 Aug 1966

Polk Kitsune wrote:
Valentine wrote: My pet peeve for TG fiction is the guy that has a wig, makeup, and a padded bra strapped on, and is now either a supermodel or can pass as female well enough to fool everyone, even in intimate settings.

Or the "average" kid that is a straight A student, class president, star athlete, musical virtuoso, and has saved all the puppies, and a secret crossdresser or TG or in love with someone that is a secret TG.

Yeeeeeeaaaaaah. Though the second one is a bit of a Mary Sue effect, but yeah. It seems rather easy for the TG to just disguise, and be incredibly beautiful. It's almost too easy, while in real life, it's not so easy.

It's not that the kid is the class president, straight "A," star athlete, and musical virtuoso. I knew some kids in highschool that had those attributes, well not the class president, but head of student groups and such, but in no way would anyone have described them as "AVERAGE."

Don't Drick and Drive.

7 years 8 months ago #33 by Schol-R-LEA

Schol-R-LEA

Posts: 1766

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: 24 Oct 1968

Rose, Esar, I think you need to check your Sarcastic Troll detectors. They may need some adjustment.

Out, damnéd Spot! Bad Doggy!

7 years 8 months ago #34 by Polk Kitsune

Polk Kitsune

Posts: 431

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

Anne wrote: I guess one of my pet peeves about TG fiction is a MtF who becomes a lesbian. Dude if you like girls stay a dude. Okay yeah I know you want to wear that LBD and look good in it... But it does somewhat amaze me that so much TG fiction has men becoming women to become lesbians. I could see wanting to become a woman because you were attracted to men, because only a small section of the male homosexual population is attracted to men as men. But if you pass well you can attract any man. Because as we all know men are notoriously indiscriminate about the looks of women when they think they are going to get to dip their junk.

Interesting, and I can't account for taste, but kiiiiinda discriminating there. Sounds almost like if you're MtF, you're not allowed to be a lesbian.

So I'm taking a crack at narrowing it down here...

But this would be someone who CHOSE to be MtF, did the whole thing... For the sole purpose of being a lesbian. Nothing else.

... That does sound real shallow, and they'd find out the repercussion of the lifestyle choice they just made...

And the flipside by what you're mentioning, is someone going MtF, for the sole purpose of pulling men in, so they can fulfill their romantic wishes...

Again, kinda shallow, and I can see how bad that'd go... Erk.

My story: Evershade: Reforming

7 years 8 months ago #35 by Esar

Esar

Posts: 328

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

Schol-R-LEA wrote: Rose, Esar, I think you need to check your Sarcastic Troll detectors. They may need some adjustment.

If it was Sarcasm, I plead Poe's law.

7 years 8 months ago #36 by Rose Bunny

Rose Bunny

Posts: 1956

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

Schol-R-LEA wrote: Rose, Esar, I think you need to check your Sarcastic Troll detectors. They may need some adjustment.

Spend the whole day with 11 year old Twin girls, it tends to overload and break your sarcasm detectors. I know it does for mine.

my kids wrote: "tsh... Mooom, you are so not cool. I mean really..."

High-Priestess of the Order of Spirit-Chan

7 years 8 months ago #37 by JG

Posts: 1454

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

Polk Kitsune wrote:
Anne wrote: I guess one of my pet peeves about TG fiction is a MtF who becomes a lesbian. Dude if you like girls stay a dude. Okay yeah I know you want to wear that LBD and look good in it... But it does somewhat amaze me that so much TG fiction has men becoming women to become lesbians. I could see wanting to become a woman because you were attracted to men, because only a small section of the male homosexual population is attracted to men as men. But if you pass well you can attract any man. Because as we all know men are notoriously indiscriminate about the looks of women when they think they are going to get to dip their junk.

Interesting, and I can't account for taste, but kiiiiinda discriminating there. Sounds almost like if you're MtF, you're not allowed to be a lesbian.

So I'm taking a crack at narrowing it down here...

But this would be someone who CHOSE to be MtF, did the whole thing... For the sole purpose of being a lesbian. Nothing else.

... That does sound real shallow, and they'd find out the repercussion of the lifestyle choice they just made...

And the flipside by what you're mentioning, is someone going MtF, for the sole purpose of pulling men in, so they can fulfill their romantic wishes...

Again, kinda shallow, and I can see how bad that'd go... Erk.

The fiction where this happens is probably the most common plot hook in TG fiction. The complaint smacked more of "plot device burnout" than discriminatory intent to me, though the phrasing could use some work

7 years 8 months ago #38 by Polk Kitsune

Polk Kitsune

Posts: 431

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

JG wrote: The fiction where this happens is probably the most common plot hook in TG fiction. The complaint smacked more of "plot device burnout" than discriminatory intent to me, though the phrasing could use some work

I... I... I can see that.

And yeah, I can see how it'd be tiresome... and kinda degrading the whole TG issues...Or again, it might be sarcasm speaking.

Still, the better stories tend to have much more depths and thoughts behind them than those bases. I'd rather celebrate those than pushing down he bad ones.

My story: Evershade: Reforming

7 years 8 months ago - 7 years 8 months ago #39 by konzill

konzill
Topic Author

Posts: 500

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

elrodw wrote: And Bobbi is the submissive one to Tiffany's stronger, more dominant personality, and eventually the two will become lesbian lovers. Bobbi's parents, once rabid trans-hating bigots, discover the errors of their beliefs, thoroughly accept Bobbi's change, and love the fact that Bobbi and Tiffany have found such deep abiding love.

Well, Bobbi's mom does anyway. Bobbies dad is an ex Marine who has been pushing him to be a real man since he was two. He exploded when he found out his son wasn't a son and tried to take the matter in hand. He is now in jail for parental kidnapping and no longer allowed within 500m of Bobbi or her mother.

Last Edit: 7 years 8 months ago by konzill.

7 years 8 months ago - 7 years 8 months ago #40 by Schol-R-LEA

Schol-R-LEA

Posts: 1766

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: 24 Oct 1968

konzill wrote:
elrodw wrote: And Bobbi is the submissive one to Tiffany's stronger, more dominant personality, and eventually the two will become lesbian lovers. Bobbi's parents, once rabid trans-hating bigots, discover the errors of their beliefs, thoroughly accept Bobbi's change, and love the fact that Bobbi and Tiffany have found such deep abiding love.

Well, Bobbi's mom does anyway. Bobbies dad is an ex Marine who has been pushing him to be a real man since he was two. He exploded when he found out his son wasn't a son and tried to take the matter in hand. He is now in jail for parental kidnapping and no longer allowed within 500m of Bobbi or her mother.

Does he resemble a big toe, and did he try to shoot a costumed heroine with Dissociative Identity Disorder who had jumped onto the roof of his car?

Out, damnéd Spot! Bad Doggy!

Last Edit: 7 years 8 months ago by Schol-R-LEA.

7 years 8 months ago #41 by Esar

Esar

Posts: 328

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

Schol-R-LEA wrote:
konzill wrote:
elrodw wrote: And Bobbi is the submissive one to Tiffany's stronger, more dominant personality, and eventually the two will become lesbian lovers. Bobbi's parents, once rabid trans-hating bigots, discover the errors of their beliefs, thoroughly accept Bobbi's change, and love the fact that Bobbi and Tiffany have found such deep abiding love.

Well, Bobbi's mom does anyway. Bobbies dad is an ex Marine who has been pushing him to be a real man since he was two. He exploded when he found out his son wasn't a son and tried to take the matter in hand. He is now in jail for parental kidnapping and no longer allowed within 500m of Bobbi or her mother.

Does he resemble a big toe, and did he try to shoot a costumed heroine with Dissociative Identity Disorder who had jumped onto the roof of his car?

Well, no.

The mother is still alive after all.

7 years 8 months ago #42 by Rose Bunny

Rose Bunny

Posts: 1956

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

That train derailed the topic worse than Amtrak.

High-Priestess of the Order of Spirit-Chan

7 years 8 months ago #43 by null0trooper

null0trooper

Posts: 3032

Gender: Male

Birthdate: 19 Oct 1964

Anne wrote: I could see wanting to become a woman because you were attracted to men, because only a small section of the male homosexual population is attracted to men as men.

The rest of the male homosexual population is attracted to men, full stop.

Forum-posted ideas are freely adoptable.

WhatIF Stories: Buy the Book

Discussion Thread

7 years 8 months ago - 7 years 8 months ago #44 by Katssun

Katssun

Posts: 1333

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

Kristin Darken wrote: 2. if you're going to use bra or other clothing sizes to describe the changes to your tranformee's torso, pull up a lingerie store's sizing charts and make sure you reference them to understand what's going on.

Right, do your research!

As an extension of this, the one that really gets me is when they get the history wrong. Costume history is insane as it is, and I love (trying to) write historical...TG...magical...fiction.

But seriously, cup sizes weren't standardized until the 1930s! Use "under-over" measurements for any time before then. Even when you look at that time period, many still stuck to S/M/L, and the mighty institution of Sears didn't adopt "cups" until the 1950s!

Match time period to bustle/corset/hobbleskirt or Gibson Girl vs flapper.

And worse, though some writers get this remarkably correct, brand to brand sizing isn't even remotely the same. A 36C from VS compared to a Vanity Fair or a Bali or Freya? All different.

Last Edit: 7 years 8 months ago by Katssun.

7 years 8 months ago - 7 years 8 months ago #45 by Kristin Darken

Kristin Darken

Posts: 3898

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

JG wrote:
Polk Kitsune wrote:
Anne wrote: I guess one of my pet peeves about TG fiction is a MtF who becomes a lesbian. Dude if you like girls stay a dude. Okay yeah I know you want to wear that LBD and look good in it... But it does somewhat amaze me that so much TG fiction has men becoming women to become lesbians. I could see wanting to become a woman because you were attracted to men, because only a small section of the male homosexual population is attracted to men as men. But if you pass well you can attract any man. Because as we all know men are notoriously indiscriminate about the looks of women when they think they are going to get to dip their junk.

Interesting, and I can't account for taste, but kiiiiinda discriminating there. Sounds almost like if you're MtF, you're not allowed to be a lesbian.

So I'm taking a crack at narrowing it down here...

But this would be someone who CHOSE to be MtF, did the whole thing... For the sole purpose of being a lesbian. Nothing else.

... That does sound real shallow, and they'd find out the repercussion of the lifestyle choice they just made...

And the flipside by what you're mentioning, is someone going MtF, for the sole purpose of pulling men in, so they can fulfill their romantic wishes...

Again, kinda shallow, and I can see how bad that'd go... Erk.

The fiction where this happens is probably the most common plot hook in TG fiction. The complaint smacked more of "plot device burnout" than discriminatory intent to me, though the phrasing could use some work

This one hits home because... well... I tend to write m2f transitions that end with lesbian relationships. Mainly because this is where my psyche lies. Gender identity and sexual orientation/interests aren't necessarily chained together, you know. and while I have met men who I find attractive... 'most' of those I have wanted to partner with over the years have been women. Unfortunately they've typically either been lesbians who couldn't see past my physical exterior... or straight women who weren't able to accept that my interior wants an exterior that is just as female as they are.

I don't KNOW that hormones and transitioning wouldn't change my tastes. That happens, I hear. But I won't know.

On the other hand... We have Heather... Renee... and Dr B / Branwyn...just in our Whateley author group. Three transitions, resulting in lesbian relationships.

So... while it might not be YOUR thing... listing it as a fiction story problem? as something 'unlikely' to happen or unrealistic? That's a bit off base...

And potentially a disconnect in understanding the differences between gender identity ... and sexual orientation. two very different things, with ties, but not direct connections.

Fate guard you and grant you a Light to brighten your Way.

Last Edit: 7 years 8 months ago by Kristin Darken.

7 years 8 months ago #46 by Rose Bunny

Rose Bunny

Posts: 1956

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

Totally did NOT just drop the "Bobbi and Tiffany" story in Micro scenes, btw...

Anyhow, to the actual point of things. I think that my biggest pet peeve on stories of TG fiction is that in the majority of them the person involved in unexpected or unwanted gender transformation become social butterflies. now, let me preface this... I LIKE Nikki, she is probably my favorite character. BUUUUT... she's a social butterfly: non-descript, average boy that turns into stunning super-model quality hot girl that is the prettiest of the prettiest in a school that has the prettiest of all.

We never see the ones that totally fail the transition. The ones that never get it, or can't pull it off. the ones that if they pulled it together could if not stunning, at least be cute or pretty, but fail so hard and come out as that sad, unkempt, unpopular shy girl in the corner.

High-Priestess of the Order of Spirit-Chan

7 years 8 months ago - 7 years 8 months ago #47 by konzill

konzill
Topic Author

Posts: 500

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

Rose Bunny wrote:
We never see the ones that totally fail the transition. The ones that never get it, or can't pull it off. the ones that if they pulled it together could if not stunning, at least be cute or pretty, but fail so hard and come out as that sad, unkempt, unpopular shy girl in the corner.

Hmm. The setup for the IF story Shadowglass comes pretty close to this, though we never interact much with that version of Simon jumped to another reality to reverse things. Canonwise, I think Jobe tends to ignore being female most of the time so arguably she could be seen as someone who is failing at transitioning.

But more generally writing an engaging story about a character who ultimately fails is harder than one about a character who ultimately succeeds.

Last Edit: 7 years 8 months ago by konzill.

7 years 8 months ago #48 by JG

Posts: 1454

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

For the record, Kristin, it was an observation, not a judgment statement. I dont actually care who the characters end up with. If the story stands on its own, the relationship will stand alongside it, regardless what the composition of the relationship is.

I am hardly one to demand that everyone try to tread ground no one else has. The writing feels more real when an author injects the familiar, things that have meaning to them. Relations playing out will play how the author fells they should, organically.

My only objection is when the story overall is half-ass or it becomes obvious that the relationship is nothing more than wish-fulfillment. Not a common problem here.

7 years 8 months ago #49 by Arcanist Lupus

Arcanist Lupus

Posts: 1820

Gender: Male

Birthdate: Unknown

I've been fortunate enough that since I got into TG fiction through Whateley, (and have not strayed overmuch from the Whateley authors), I have pretty much only read quality TG stories.

So not too many pet peeves here.

Although Morpheus does have a tendency towards including boys-with-female-best-friends-whom-the-boy-would-be-interested-in-dating-except-she-isn't-interested-because-she-is-secretly-a-lesbian-which-he-learns-when-he-turns-into-a-hot-girl. Which I don't actually mind so much since I'm a sucker for sweet mostly drama-free relationships. But it is a rather specific arc for how frequently it appears.

"Shared pain is lessened; shared joy, increased — thus do we refute entropy." - Spider Robinson

7 years 8 months ago #50 by JG

Posts: 1454

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

As a bonus, morph's stories tend to having you hitting your head on the desk in a desperate attempt to make the choking laughter stop.

7 years 8 months ago - 7 years 8 months ago #51 by Rose Bunny

Rose Bunny

Posts: 1956

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

A lot of that Is based on Morpheus posting a lot of those type of stories on Big Closet. I know there are more than a few of his over there that have sent me to the cold shower... The Apprentice and Mother's Milk, come to mind ... I do have to say, be glad that the stuff that appears over here is as tame as it is, in comparison...

Oh, and Morpheus, Find a way to work Vickie Versa into Whateley Canon, and finish that story

High-Priestess of the Order of Spirit-Chan

Last Edit: 7 years 8 months ago by Rose Bunny.

7 years 8 months ago #52 by Morpheus

Morpheus

Posts: 555

Gender: Male

Birthdate: Unknown

At one point, I had planned on writing a Vicki Versa sequel, which would tie together a couple of my other stories, but my muse has long since lost interest in that. As for Vicki making an appearance in Whateley, I really don't think that is going to happen.

The waking world is but a dream.

7 years 8 months ago #53 by Kristin Darken

Kristin Darken

Posts: 3898

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

JG wrote: For the record, Kristin, it was an observation, not a judgment statement.

*nod* that was mostly targeted at the original poster of that peeve... you were just in the conversation of quote as a whole. I probably should have trimmed back the quotes to make that more clear.

Fate guard you and grant you a Light to brighten your Way.

7 years 8 months ago #54 by Kristin Darken

Kristin Darken

Posts: 3898

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

Far as TG Fiction goes... not sure anyone cares, but I'm working on a story in Elrod's MAU universe that will probably be (at least the first part of it) up before the end of the summer. Assuming El approves it when its done. The first section has an 'ok' stamp so far, so we'll see. And we'll see how many of the bad tropes I hit.

Fate guard you and grant you a Light to brighten your Way.

7 years 8 months ago #55 by Sir Lee

Sir Lee

Posts: 3113

Gender: Male

Birthdate: 08 Nov 1966

Schol-R-LEA wrote: Seriously, people are starting to think Ellen is dead or something. Sir Lee, I know you were a regular on the (now defunct) Tuckerspawn forum, have you heard anything?

Ellen disappeared suddenly some three or four years ago. At the time, she had just came from a nasty breakup with her longtime SO, and was moving to another city -- my understanding at the time was that she was going to live with/near her mother, I think. It was a very bad moment in her life, and I fear that she may have taken the extreme way out. She had struggled with depression issues before, and it might have been too much for her that time.

The odd thing is that, bad as that moment was, my feeling was that if she had managed to endure the slump she might have a long-term better outlook. For as long as I was a reader she complained of her relationship; maybe they just weren't meant to be together, and a breakup could be better in the long run. Also, that was a point in time when it seemed that anti-trans discrimination was starting to be discussed openly instead of swept under the rug, so employment opportunities might improve. And the Amazon Kindle business model was beginning to take off, which could provide her with some extra money if she took Tuck there. But I guess we will never know. I have no idea if anybody in the community knew how to contact her offline.

Even so, I have some hope that she is still around somewhere, and that her silence was just the result of wanting to have a clean break with her past. I know it's not likely. But I prefer to deceive myself that way.

Don't call me "Shirley." You will surely make me surly.

7 years 8 months ago #56 by OtherEric

OtherEric

Posts: 463

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

Sir Lee wrote: Even so, I have some hope that she is still around somewhere, and that her silence was just the result of wanting to have a clean break with her past. I know it's not likely. But I prefer to deceive myself that way.

That's about the size of it. I check her site 3-4 times a year; it's still there and I keep hoping we'll hear something.

No news isn't always good news, but sometimes the hope it allows can be better than knowing for certain.

7 years 8 months ago - 7 years 8 months ago #57 by Schol-R-LEA

Schol-R-LEA

Posts: 1766

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: 24 Oct 1968

Anne wrote: I guess one of my pet peeves about TG fiction is a MtF who becomes a lesbian. Dude if you like girls stay a dude.

JG wrote: The fiction where this happens is probably the most common plot hook in TG fiction. The complaint smacked more of "plot device burnout" than discriminatory intent to me, though the phrasing could use some work

The interesting thing is, this is usually done for one of four reasons, one of which being, "Ooh, it's a twist no one will see coming! Everybody expects a trans person to be heterosexual in their identified gender, so we can mess around with their heads!"

The problem, of course, is that almost everyone writing TG fiction thinks the same thing, so anyone who reads TG fiction regularly will see it coming.

The second reason is simply that the author is themselves non-cis, and are themselves attracted to people of the same gender(s) they identify as. This can be seen in stories such as Rain (Jocelyn has a female partner, IIRC), Venus Envy (the character Zoe is bisexual, while Erin herself is bi/pansexual - she has a FTM partner, at least did at one point), Saga of Tuck (both Tuck and author Ellen are bi, plus Ellen is known for some light BDSM), and Tales of MU (the same regarding Mackenzie and Alexandra, but with a lot more BDSM for both). It gets even more common for non-binary people such as Cassian - it is well known that Poly In Pictures is largely autobiographical.

So, for these cases, it becomes a matter of 'write what you know' plus 'author appeal' - it reflects their own reality. This shouldn't be too surprising; while figures are hard to come by, my impression is that 'heterosexual in my own identified gender' is actually in the minority for non-cis people, with a lot more being (or at least admitting to) being gay/lesbian, ace, bisexual/pansexual, or what have you, than those whose gender matches their biological sex (for some, I think, coming out as gay/trans/kinky/poly/whatever makes it easier to come out as one of the other things as well, for a number of reasons starting with the sense that one has 'nothing left to lose' once one closet door is opened - though this isn't universal of course). Given that both sexual orientation and gender identity seem to be in part a matter of both epigenetic factors and early childhood experiences (and predicated, interestingly enough, in part by population density), the fact that these traits don't quite sort independently shouldn't be too surprising - as Kristin said, they are connected, but only loosely.

The third reason is that of a heterosexual male author is using the story to express trans fetishism/transgenderism/"autogynephilia", in a 'safe' manner, but either isn't interested in or is afraid to admit being interested in sex with a male. Now, again, having a desire to have sex as a person of a physically different sex than the one you were born with is itself independent of gender identity; while obviously most TG people want to have sexual relations in the sex that matches their gender, it isn't universal, and equally obviously, not everyone who has such fantasies/desires wants to live as the gender matching those desires. This causes a lot of confusion: social roles, social behavioral cue,s and sexual roles aren't at all the same things. Wanting to have sex as one isn't the same as wanting to be seen as that gender; wanting to dress in gendered clothing isn't the same as either. A lot of people have trouble wrapping their heads around this. I can see a lot of reasons why an author would hesitate to 'come out' about what would be seen by many as same-sex attraction (because a lot pf people still think "sex == gender and you can't go against that, hurr durr", even those who experience those feelings) even anonymously.

The fourth (but by no means final) reason is the same reason why so many heterosexual women (especially teens) write slash fiction: the main character is an author avatar (and all too often a Mary Sue), and using same sex love interests is psychologically safer somehow because they see it as unrealistic. Make of that what you will.

There are other reasons, and the motivations often get tangled up with each other (Eris knows how tangled it is just in my own head), but yeah, even I have to admit it is a cliché by now.

Out, damnéd Spot! Bad Doggy!

Last Edit: 7 years 8 months ago by Schol-R-LEA.

7 years 8 months ago #58 by Jarjaross

Jarjaross

Posts: 455

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

Can someone get a bit more specific for me? Does TG fiction include fan fiction where a character has swapped gender from the start? Because I have a different pet hate for that one. Actually I have a different peeve for characters wanting the transition as well.

Ah well might as well list all three.

Character does not want to change or does not know they want to change: immediately getting into sexuality and dating or falling head over heals for someone whom they previously would not have been attracted to. They are dealing with enough stuff already, having them fall for someone whether they would be attracted to them or not before the transition is generally just bad writing. They need time to figure things out, especially with all of the new hormones.

Character wants to change: having it magically solve all of there problem. Yeah your body is now the shape is should be, the world isn't suddenly a better place and now you have to deal with new hormones, open bigotry, and the adjustment period your friends have to go through now that you are in the right body.

Genderbent fanfiction: changing a characters gender when the characters gender is central to their characterization. You can get away with it with tom boys or fashion conscious or otherwise girly boys but if it is something like "she refuses to let being a girl hold her back in sports" you are taking away a core of the character. Now I'm not saying it can't be done right, if you keep the personality and the rest the characterization but switch the gender reliant core to make them more appropriately the other gender (like by switching male and female stereotypes or accepted interests) then it is probably fine. The issue is that almost no one does that.

My dreams take me to far off lands and times of distant past and future. They tell what has been done, what will happen and who I am. They show me things beyond the machinations of any man. Tell me, what are dreams to you?

7 years 8 months ago #59 by Nagrij

Nagrij

Posts: 1290

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

*Wanders by and blinks.*

*Blinks again and eyes the fresh coffee. Doublechecks the ingredients.*

*Cheers in the realization that he has avoided all of these pet peeves and pitfalls.*

*Then realizes he has yet to complete a story in four years.*

Well, crap. Can I get a mulligan on that one?

Also: "We never see the ones that totally fail the transition. The ones that never get it, or can't pull it off. the ones that if they pulled it together could if not stunning, at least be cute or pretty, but fail so hard and come out as that sad, unkempt, unpopular shy girl in the corner."

Rose, it's on the list, but you'll have to wait a bit because see the above.

www.patreon.com/Nagrij

If you like my writing, please consider helping me out, and see the rest of the tales I spin on Patreon.

7 years 8 months ago #60 by Anne

Anne

Posts: 1411

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

I could see that happening, that is them failing as a girl even if they thought they wanted it a lot. Because a lot of our problems are internal and won't be changed an iota by changing our outward appearance. Me, for the record I'm bi-strongly hetero, but have enjoyed reasonably LTR with same sex at least once. Would I do it again? In either case, hetero, or same, I'd want to get to know the other person a lot better. And I'm very much a wallflower, so, not much chance of me taking the risk of even trying for another relationship, I'd have to be approached by whoever wanted to have a relationship or it wouldn't happen. I've got to work some of this into Jazz story without her becoming a Mary Sue...

Adopt my story: here
Nowhereville discussion

7 years 8 months ago - 7 years 8 months ago #61 by Malady

Malady

Posts: 3893

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

Mary Sue? Don't you mean a self-insert?

Oh, but the "guy that approachs her cause of no real reason" is sorta "crazy coincidence" that's so... impossible that it's sorta Mary Sue?

Is that what you're saying? ... Then the solution is to give him a reason to talk... But what...

Archives: Rubberjohn's Fanfic + CrystalHall + Mittfh's Wordcount Spreadsheet

My Patreon. But, support the Crystal Hall 1st?

Last Edit: 7 years 8 months ago by Malady.

7 years 8 months ago #62 by Kristin Darken

Kristin Darken

Posts: 3898

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

Mary Sue and self-insert - not the same thing.

Self-insert is not inherently a bad thing. In fact, more stories have an author self-insert character than not. Especially among younger / less experienced authors. Some of this is entirely unavoidable... because writing what you know requires far less research. Writing characters that don't have ANY of you in them is hard work.

Where self-inserts go wrong, though, is when taken to extremes (the character IS you but its not an autobiography)... or where unusual/unexpected events happen to that character in ways that become wish fulfillment or self-flagellation / punishment (ie giving yourself everything you've ever wanted or punishing yourself for things you've done wrong through means of the story). The main reason these sorts of stories are 'off the rails' is if you let it focus inward... where you are writing for your character to get what you want or think you deserve. Readers feel you focusing inward and find it harder and harder to have sympathy with or connections to your character... and lose interest. As long as you stay connected with your reader, wish fulfillment are fine... they're bigger than life, but if inclusive, can still be enjoyable. That's pretty much the basis of a space opera...

Mary Sue... on the other hand... is rarely contained within the scope of good reading. The rare example would be when done as a parody or for comedy. A Mary Sue MAY be a self-insert. Or may not.. BUT, the defining characteristic is that Mary Sue does the same thing the ideal canon character(s) does... but better. While being loved for showing up the original character(s). The original Mary Sue being a fan fiction character for the Star Trek universe, who was a better leader than Kirk... smarter than Spock, more capable with a blade than Sulu, better with languages than Uhura, and a better engineer than Scotty. She stepped onto the bridge as an ensign, showed up the senior staff, saved everyone's bacon, and everyone loved her for doing it.

A Whateley example of a self-insert? Any of the Lit Chix. They were intentional self-inserts.

A Whateley example of a Mary Sue? Would be an Exemplar 7 with Warper (Grav) - 4, Wiz 3, Gadgeteering 3, with a psychic ESP aura that makes her look/sound/etc like someone you care for more than your own life, who comes from a wealthy family that is part of the Illuminati and could buy and sell the Goodkinds at will if they weren't hiding their wealth. She can go toe to toe with any of Team Kimba on their own terms and with a little time in her private labs to prepare, she can take on any team in the school.

That is a Mary Sue.

Fate guard you and grant you a Light to brighten your Way.

7 years 8 months ago #63 by E M Pisek

E M Pisek

Posts: 1299

Gender: Male

Birthdate: 24 Apr 1960

Kristin Darken wrote: Mary Sue and self-insert - not the same thing.

Self-insert is not inherently a bad thing. In fact, more stories have an author self-insert character than not. Especially among younger / less experienced authors. Some of this is entirely unavoidable... because writing what you know requires far less research. Writing characters that don't have ANY of you in them is hard work.

Where self-inserts go wrong, though, is when taken to extremes (the character IS you but its not an autobiography)... or where unusual/unexpected events happen to that character in ways that become wish fulfillment or self-flagellation / punishment (ie giving yourself everything you've ever wanted or punishing yourself for things you've done wrong through means of the story). The main reason these sorts of stories are 'off the rails' is if you let it focus inward... where you are writing for your character to get what you want or think you deserve. Readers feel you focusing inward and find it harder and harder to have sympathy with or connections to your character... and lose interest. As long as you stay connected with your reader, wish fulfillment are fine... they're bigger than life, but if inclusive, can still be enjoyable. That's pretty much the basis of a space opera...

Mary Sue... on the other hand... is rarely contained within the scope of good reading. The rare example would be when done as a parody or for comedy. A Mary Sue MAY be a self-insert. Or may not.. BUT, the defining characteristic is that Mary Sue does the same thing the ideal canon character(s) does... but better. While being loved for showing up the original character(s). The original Mary Sue being a fan fiction character for the Star Trek universe, who was a better leader than Kirk... smarter than Spock, more capable with a blade than Sulu, better with languages than Uhura, and a better engineer than Scotty. She stepped onto the bridge as an ensign, showed up the senior staff, saved everyone's bacon, and everyone loved her for doing it.

A Whateley example of a self-insert? Any of the Lit Chix. They were intentional self-inserts.

A Whateley example of a Mary Sue? Would be an Exemplar 7 with Warper (Grav) - 4, Wiz 3, Gadgeteering 3, with a psychic ESP aura that makes her look/sound/etc like someone you care for more than your own life, who comes from a wealthy family that is part of the Illuminati and could buy and sell the Goodkinds at will if they weren't hiding their wealth. She can go toe to toe with any of Team Kimba on their own terms and with a little time in her private labs to prepare, she can take on any team in the school.

That is a Mary Sue.

Sigh. I thought you was talking John Wayne there missy.

What is - was. What was - is.

7 years 8 months ago #64 by Anne

Anne

Posts: 1411

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

Kristen, thanks for the excellent explanation of a Mary Sue. IDK if my character would be that bad but I've always seen the character who overcomes all obstacles (or whom everyone wants to help) as a version of Mary Sue. Self insert, no problem, your character should have authentic angst. You will write the angst you understand best. I'm an amateur at this at best so I probably will write poorly. At least that is my experience with SOL.

Adopt my story: here
Nowhereville discussion

7 years 8 months ago #65 by Nagrij

Nagrij

Posts: 1290

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

I've always used a mental exercise as a litmus test for detecting Mary Sues.

if you imagine yourself in the role of the character and not only say 'no' but run screaming the other way as your mind bends like warm taffy, then the character in question isn't a Mary Sue.

For example, take the most egregious example that I can think of... from Star Trek. Wesley Crusher; it's easy to picture one's self in the role of entitled, amazingly competent douche.

On the other hand... no sane person wants to be, say, any no named red shirt on that series.

So if you're writing, and you have to suppress the urge to scream and flee or claw your own eyes out to deny the horrible, horrible truths, then your character isn't a Mary Sue. Hope that helps.

www.patreon.com/Nagrij

If you like my writing, please consider helping me out, and see the rest of the tales I spin on Patreon.

7 years 8 months ago #66 by JG

Posts: 1454

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

Now imagine yourself as any of my characters.

Yes you have to live their lives too, and have all their mental baggage.

7 years 8 months ago #67 by Katssun

Katssun

Posts: 1333

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

Nagrij wrote: if you imagine yourself in the role of the character and not only say 'no' but run screaming the other way as your mind bends like warm taffy, then the character in question isn't a Mary Sue.

For example, take the most egregious example that I can think of... from Star Trek. Wesley Crusher; it's easy to picture one's self in the role of entitled, amazingly competent douche.

Are you and Kristin saying that the fanbase should challenge the authors to write a WhatIF/Microscene Wesley, and do, terrible, terrible things to them.?

Because it sounds like that's what you're asking.

7 years 8 months ago #68 by Nagrij

Nagrij

Posts: 1290

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

Katssun wrote:
Nagrij wrote: if you imagine yourself in the role of the character and not only say 'no' but run screaming the other way as your mind bends like warm taffy, then the character in question isn't a Mary Sue.

For example, take the most egregious example that I can think of... from Star Trek. Wesley Crusher; it's easy to picture one's self in the role of entitled, amazingly competent douche.
Are you and Kristin saying that the fanbase should challenge the authors to write a WhatIF/Microscene Wesley, and do, terrible, terrible things to them.?

Because it sounds like that's what you're asking.

Nah, not for my part. I was just explaining the litmus test I use for determining which characters are Mary Sues; I was actually being serious, that IS the test I use.

As for Wesley, he's a god now, or something. I don't think you can hurt him anymore. I saw that episode.

www.patreon.com/Nagrij

If you like my writing, please consider helping me out, and see the rest of the tales I spin on Patreon.

7 years 8 months ago #69 by Astrodragon

Astrodragon

Posts: 1998

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

Surely Nagrij's issue is that there aren't enough TG zombies?

Come to think of it, has anyone ever written a story about a TG zombie??

I love watching their innocent little faces smiling happily as they trip gaily down the garden path, before finding the pit with the rusty spikes.

7 years 8 months ago #70 by Morpheus

Morpheus

Posts: 555

Gender: Male

Birthdate: Unknown

I actually came up with a character idea for a TG zombie some time back, but never got around to writing her story.

The waking world is but a dream.

7 years 8 months ago #71 by Domoviye

Domoviye

Posts: 2428

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

Katssun wrote:
Nagrij wrote: if you imagine yourself in the role of the character and not only say 'no' but run screaming the other way as your mind bends like warm taffy, then the character in question isn't a Mary Sue.

For example, take the most egregious example that I can think of... from Star Trek. Wesley Crusher; it's easy to picture one's self in the role of entitled, amazingly competent douche.
Are you and Kristin saying that the fanbase should challenge the authors to write a WhatIF/Microscene Wesley, and do, terrible, terrible things to them.?

Because it sounds like that's what you're asking.

Oh! Oh!
Can I accept this challenge! PLEASE! PLEASE! PLEASE!

7 years 8 months ago #72 by Nagrij

Nagrij

Posts: 1290

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

Morpheus wrote: I actually came up with a character idea for a TG zombie some time back, but never got around to writing her story.

Morph, we discussed this before; please get out of my head, and if the voices keep opening the mental door and letting you in, tell me which one is doing it so I can... chastise them.

Domo, if you really want to, knock yourself out.

www.patreon.com/Nagrij

If you like my writing, please consider helping me out, and see the rest of the tales I spin on Patreon.

7 years 8 months ago #73 by Domoviye

Domoviye

Posts: 2428

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

Pass. To make things worse for my characters, they'd end up dead. Even Teri... Especially Teri.

7 years 8 months ago #74 by konzill

konzill
Topic Author

Posts: 500

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

Astrodragon wrote: Surely Nagrij's issue is that there aren't enough TG zombies?

Come to think of it, has anyone ever written a story about a TG zombie??

I seem to recall reading an all Hallows eve story where a guy's dead ex-girlfriend shows up and somehow tricks him into switching bodies with her. And yes he ends up as a TG Zombie. Can't for the life of me remember what it was called though.

7 years 8 months ago - 7 years 8 months ago #75 by Sir Lee

Sir Lee

Posts: 3113

Gender: Male

Birthdate: 08 Nov 1966

Morpheus wrote: I actually came up with a character idea for a TG zombie some time back, but never got around to writing her story.

Of course he did. Name one, just ONE TG concept Morpheus hasn't at least considered.

Don't call me "Shirley." You will surely make me surly.

Last Edit: 7 years 8 months ago by Sir Lee.

7 years 8 months ago - 7 years 8 months ago #76 by Malady

Malady

Posts: 3893

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

Has anyone seen a TG SpaceshipGirl? ... Which as apparently now "A feminine spaceship avatar." ... I guess that could work if the Ship AI is female, but somehow, there's only male robot bodies to download into for some strange reason?

Archives: Rubberjohn's Fanfic + CrystalHall + Mittfh's Wordcount Spreadsheet

My Patreon. But, support the Crystal Hall 1st?

Last Edit: 7 years 8 months ago by Malady.

7 years 8 months ago #77 by null0trooper

null0trooper

Posts: 3032

Gender: Male

Birthdate: 19 Oct 1964

Malady wrote: Has anyone seen a TG SpaceshipGirl? ... Which as apparently now "A feminine spaceship avatar." ... I guess that could work if the Ship AI is female, but somehow, there's only male robot bodies to download into for some strange reason?

What if the Ship Brain (à la "The Ship Who Sang"?) was a shell person born XY that "grew up" self-identifying as female?

Forum-posted ideas are freely adoptable.

WhatIF Stories: Buy the Book

Discussion Thread

7 years 8 months ago #78 by Schol-R-LEA

Schol-R-LEA

Posts: 1766

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: 24 Oct 1968

Malady wrote: Has anyone seen a TG SpaceshipGirl? ... Which as apparently now "A feminine spaceship avatar." ... I guess that could work if the Ship AI is female, but somehow, there's only male robot bodies to download into for some strange reason?

Oh I hate my muse some times... now I'm imagining said female-identitified AI beoing trapped inside of Lance from Angels 2200 ...

That wrong on so many levels...

Out, damnéd Spot! Bad Doggy!

7 years 8 months ago #79 by Yolandria

Yolandria

Posts: 595

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

Now imagine yourself as any of my characters.

Yes you have to live their lives too, and have all their mental baggage.

Only if i get to play with the Aegis loaders. =)

Mistress of the shelter for lost and redeemable Woobies!

7 years 8 months ago #80 by JG

Posts: 1454

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

Yolandria wrote:
Now imagine yourself as any of my characters.

Yes you have to live their lives too, and have all their mental baggage.
Only if i get to play with the Aegis loaders. =)

Only Caitlin gets to poke at those, and I haven't decided for how much longer.

7 years 8 months ago #81 by Phoenix Spiritus

Phoenix Spiritus

Posts: 2595

Gender: Male

Birthdate: 20 Jan 1976

Domoviye wrote: Pass. To make things worse for my characters, they'd end up dead. Even Teri... Especially Teri.

Piker.

'Dying' is never the worst thing that can happen to you, people who believe this are insufficiently experienced in life.

7 years 8 months ago - 7 years 8 months ago #82 by Phoenix Spiritus

Phoenix Spiritus

Posts: 2595

Gender: Male

Birthdate: 20 Jan 1976

konzill wrote:
Astrodragon wrote: Surely Nagrij's issue is that there aren't enough TG zombies?

Come to think of it, has anyone ever written a story about a TG zombie??

I seem to recall reading an all Hallows eve story where a guy's dead ex-girlfriend shows up and somehow tricks him into switching bodies with her. And yes he ends up as a TG Zombie. Can't for the life of me remember what it was called though.

It's in the Whateley Library, 'Dead Girls Don't Cry' in the 'Miscellaneous' section by Maggie Finson.

Last Edit: 7 years 8 months ago by Phoenix Spiritus.

7 years 8 months ago #83 by null0trooper

null0trooper

Posts: 3032

Gender: Male

Birthdate: 19 Oct 1964

Domoviye wrote: Pass. To make things worse for my characters, they'd end up dead. Even Teri... Especially Teri.

But sparkling zombie pixie Teri riding into battle on The Sum of All Evil would make a neat Halloween costume.
(How hard could Tarakian battle dress be to sew?)

Forum-posted ideas are freely adoptable.

WhatIF Stories: Buy the Book

Discussion Thread

7 years 8 months ago #84 by Polk Kitsune

Polk Kitsune

Posts: 431

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

Mary Sue... Kinda complicated to cover, partly because the term can be vague at point. Kristin does have to origins of the term right though. It's not the first instance, but the trope was named after her. TV tropes tries to describe what it's used for, but even it has to separate it into categories. Not just about power, skill and beauty, but social ranking and even knowing things they simply shouldn't know. Some characters will simply have everyone else bend over backwards to satisfy the character. It breaks the story and the characters around them.

They're easily spotted and called out in fanfics, because you have an official source to measure up to. If the character is way too good compared to the cannon universe, people will point out the official sources, and quickly dismiss the story for the Sue it represents.

There are characters though, that carry elements of a Mary Sue though, and those can sometimes be just as infuriating at times. It's where one might say they're godmoding or have become the author's pet favorite character. Where some things would usually be a big problem for every other characters, this one just breezes through. Where there should be consequences for their actions, they don't get affected at all. It drives me nuts at times.

You have to find a way to balance everything. Make a protagonist that's talented into something, but not in everything. There has to be challenges and struggles. The world isn't all centered into one character who has everything. I'm tempted to say it's boring to watch an overpowered character just waltz along everything like wet tissues, but it's frustrating when something is presented as a legitimate threat... And it's basically nothing.

Then again, as I'm ranting, there are cases where those characters can work, but it is rare. Oh so very rare. Yes, there is the parody aspect where it can work. There's also the possibility of an antagonist Sue, but one has to be careful there. I've been watching an anime recently where the main character I would consider a Marty Stu, but I keep watching not for them, but for everything around them instead. The surrounding cast, the concepts drawn and the struggles where he's not involved. Those parts are good enough to keep me watching. It's not mind-blowingly great, but good enough to keep me sitting back and paying attention.

What also makes it hard though, is that a newbie writer might not realize they are writing that type of character. They could be writing as a power fantasy or a self-inserted wish-fulfillment. It does feel great to dream up those moments, but for the readers, it's not exactly exciting or interesting. Even worse when you make a fanfic, some people might outcry that you're betraying how their beloved characters are pictured. That's where I picture a Mary Sue hurts the most.

Nagrij may have hit it on the nose on how to picture a non-Mary Sue, but it's a bit extreme on one side. After all, you don't tend to enjoy reading a story about the guy who is just cannon fodder (Just cannon fodder. Nothing else. Doesn't mean you can't write about someone who isn't the best, but again, there's all kinds of exceptions). It doesn't mean you can't have somekind of a happy ending either. It's the point of a lot of stories. You can have your character feel powerful too. It's a challenge to balance the two, but when done well, that's when the magic happens. When the reader can feel the protagonist triumph over the adversity. That's when everyone can really feel powerful and relieved. That's my take on it.

My story: Evershade: Reforming

7 years 8 months ago #85 by Dreamer

Dreamer

Posts: 984

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: 03 Dec 1976

Polk Kitsune wrote: I've been watching an anime recently where the main character I would consider a Marty Stu, but I keep watching not for them, but for everything around them instead. The surrounding cast, the concepts drawn and the struggles where he's not involved. Those parts are good enough to keep me watching. It's not mind-blowingly great, but good enough to keep me sitting back and paying attention.

Let me guess, the anime in question is In Another World With My Smartphone, sure sounds like it.

Thank You for story comments appreciated and help me know me they are being read and liked.

Note: My story comments can't nor are trying to replace reading the stories, simply my way of enjoying them and letting the authors know I enjoy them.

7 years 8 months ago #86 by Domoviye

Domoviye

Posts: 2428

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

Phoenix Spiritus wrote:
Domoviye wrote: Pass. To make things worse for my characters, they'd end up dead. Even Teri... Especially Teri.

Piker.

'Dying' is never the worst thing that can happen to you, people who believe this are insufficiently experienced in life.

I know.

7 years 8 months ago #87 by Polk Kitsune

Polk Kitsune

Posts: 431

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

Dreamer wrote:
Polk Kitsune wrote: I've been watching an anime recently where the main character I would consider a Marty Stu, but I keep watching not for them, but for everything around them instead. The surrounding cast, the concepts drawn and the struggles where he's not involved. Those parts are good enough to keep me watching. It's not mind-blowingly great, but good enough to keep me sitting back and paying attention.
Let me guess, the anime in question is In Another World With My Smartphone, sure sounds like it.

Actually? No. Although with that title, I can definitively see that happening.

I'm actually referring to Knight's & Magic (Yes, that seems to be a typo, and is actually part of the title of the series.)

The main character is a Mecha Otaku who dies in the modern world in a drunken accident (if you're looking for cliche events, there you go), and is reincarnated in a medieval world where magic-based mechas exist. The way magic works matches so closely to his skills in programming in the real world, that he's a genius at it. His whole obsession in his new life is those new mechas.

Nothing else seems to matter to him...

...or very little (he does make some friends).

And that's about all there is to his character.

That's about all we see about him. Him thinking new ways to make mechas better in that world. To the point where the world claims they had seen no developments in mechas in 200 years, and he's made groundbreaking developments all over. He's made dangerous decisions that should, by all means, have gotten him killed over and over, if not imprisoned and disciplined afterwards, yet he just keeps on going with a childish attitude all around.

Heck, you might say he's your typical Devisor/Gadgeteer, cranked up to 11.

But thankfully, we get a lot more developments to the characters around him instead. Not all are gems, but still good enough. And the concepts and logic behind the concepts he comes up with are interesting. I can't say everything on the Manga side, I've only followed the anime so far, but I am still going to keep watching.

My story: Evershade: Reforming

7 years 8 months ago #88 by peter

peter

Posts: 293

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

My pet hate. Boy Cows. ^_^

tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AnimalGenderBender

7 years 8 months ago - 7 years 8 months ago #89 by Katssun

Katssun

Posts: 1333

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

So called "Villain Sues" are far worse variety of Mary Sues in my opinion. You have a long running series, but the author creates a super-perfect foe or group that their heroes have no chance to defeat, and every time they come close, some other deus ex machina keeps the villain(s) alive. It's not the same as a Bond villain narrowly making their escape with nothing but their life, plans ruined. I mean villains who never really even have their plan foiled at all. They might have to regroup, they might have to alter a plan, they might get wounded to the degree of a skinned knee, but they easily bounce back and still succeed at a master plan of theirs.

Invincible geniuses, perpetually one step in front of the heroes no matter what secret edge the heroes devise or come up with on the fly.

It becomes disgustingly apparent that the author fell in love with the enemies they created, and lost interest in their protagonists.

Last Edit: 7 years 8 months ago by Katssun.

7 years 8 months ago #90 by Anne

Anne

Posts: 1411

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

A successful writer must like his characters enough that they will succeed but not so well that they never struggle. Nor must those who oppose the MC become bigger than life. Instead we must always seek to make fiction reflect reality without having mundane mediocrities end up our focus!

Adopt my story: here
Nowhereville discussion

7 years 8 months ago - 7 years 8 months ago #91 by Schol-R-LEA

Schol-R-LEA

Posts: 1766

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: 24 Oct 1968

peter wrote: My pet hate. Boy Cows. ^_^

tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AnimalGenderBender

That's just bull!

Or do you mean that the cattle rancher lied to you when he sold you a bum steer (insert Beltane saying: "We were talking about gender, not orientation!")? Pet or not, I don't think you want to try milking one of those...

But yeah, that makes no sense at all.

Out, damnéd Spot! Bad Doggy!

Last Edit: 7 years 8 months ago by Schol-R-LEA.

7 years 8 months ago #92 by elrodw

elrodw

Posts: 3263

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

Anne wrote: A successful writer must like his characters enough that they will succeed but not so well that they never struggle.

And such is my motto :evil:

Never give up, Never surrender! Captain Peter Quincy Taggert

7 years 8 months ago #93 by Polk Kitsune

Polk Kitsune

Posts: 431

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

Villain Sues. Yeah, yeah, I've seen those. I believe Bleach had a really bad one, if I heard correctly. No one could touch him.

You do want your villain to be competent, and a threat... But yeah, sometimes, it's ridiculous. The villain gets a free pass they simply should not deserve. Or predicted something there was no way to tell, but with dumb luck. It can happen, but... You don't want it to happen constantly either.

My story: Evershade: Reforming

7 years 8 months ago - 7 years 8 months ago #94 by konzill

konzill
Topic Author

Posts: 500

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

Occasionally the Villian Sue will eventually do a heel face turn and join the good guys thereby getting a free pass for all their past crimes no matter how heinous, including all the times they pretty much tortured the heroes. The two that immediately spring to mind here are: David Xanatos from the Gargoyles cartoon and Trenton Aloysius Kalamack from the Hollows book series.

Last Edit: 7 years 8 months ago by konzill.

7 years 8 months ago #95 by mittfh

mittfh

Posts: 380

Gender: Male

Birthdate: 18 May 1977

One pet hate, that's frequent on FM but rare on BCTS and absent here: the "caught with consequences" segment of forced fem stories. The supposed protagonist is caught crossdressing, then is so afraid of their crossdressing being shared with friends / colleagues that they're willing to accept what is arguably a far worse fate than momentary embarrassement. It would be nice if there were more averted / subverted FF tales - where the protagonist is either genre-savvy or is actually capable of putting down a foot and saying 'no way' before things get too far.

In many tales involving crossdressing (often requiring the protagonist to go undercover as a girl for a length of time), once they return to their male appearance it's heavily implied they never crossdress or feel the desire to ever do so again under any circumstances.

Then not so much hates, but overused tropes:

* Either the protagonist has a medical issue exacerbated by testosterone, necessating a gender flip, or they're given an involuntary surgical castration (e.g. car accident, assault), which also necessetates a gender flip. Bonus points if it occurs prior to or during puberty.

* Intersex All Along (and in a few rare cases, fertile XX female all along, just with fused labia and the appearance of a penis/testicles)

* No Androgynous Clothing, Ever! Plus the related trope of being indoctrinated into wearing makeup (facial and nails) every day without fail.

As the right side of the brain controls the left side of the body, then only left-handers are in their right mind!

7 years 8 months ago #96 by Anne

Anne

Posts: 1411

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

I'm sure that the whole forced feminisation thing didn't start with Tuck (Oh how I hope I haven't seen the last of Tuck!) but that is where I ran into it first. But a lot of it rankles of absolute abuse. We'd scream bloody murder if a girl were forced to dress and act like a boy to the point of binding her breasts if she were old enough for them to be an issue. So Yeah definitely something that squicks for the most part there. I never met my dad's second sister but from reports she was xx (I have several cousins that are her children) but was recorded as a boy at birth... So she must have had the appearance of a penis at least.

Adopt my story: here
Nowhereville discussion

7 years 8 months ago #97 by Corvacks

Corvacks

Posts: 13

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

My pet hate is why is it almost always the Dad, who is the bigot or hater, or drunk and abusive, i know its probably statisically more likely to be the man in the relationship but it does go both ways.

7 years 8 months ago #98 by Kettlekorn

Kettlekorn

Posts: 1383

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

My pet peeve is when somebody becomes a girl and then seems to believe they have no choice but to comply with dumb stereotypes. Like the notion that the only options as a girl are skirts or nonfunctional pants.

Never mind that stuff like this exists: [ Click to expand ]

Nor is long hair necessary if you don't like it unless some magic or mutation is making it regrow too fast for short haircuts to be practical. Even then, you could just take some clippers and whack it all off each morning before your shower. Maybe it'll be two feet long again by bed time, but you still got to have it short for the actual shower, which means cleaning and drying was easy, and the hair that grew out afterwards can go fuck itself. And when you've got a special occasion, just get your hair done professionally that day (or take more care doing it yourself; the speed at which it grows back means you have plenty of opportunity to practice). And if you don't have fast hair growth, there are plenty of very attractive short haircuts you could get.

It's like turning into a girl destroys their ability to man up and force the world to comply with their will. They become whiny helpless losers, not real women.

I am the kernel that pops in the night. I am the pain that keeps your dentist employed.

7 years 8 months ago #99 by Polk Kitsune

Polk Kitsune

Posts: 431

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

Kettlekorn wrote: My pet peeve is when somebody becomes a girl and then seems to believe they have no choice but to comply with dumb stereotypes. Like the notion that the only options as a girl are skirts or nonfunctional pants.

... ... ...

It's like turning into a girl destroys their ability to man up and force the world to comply with their will. They become whiny helpless losers, not real women.

That part, I can agree on, in some parts. It's true that just because someone gets turned into a girl, that they should abandon what they've known, what they're made of, but that may be context sensitive.

Some might want to be seem more sensitive and feminine. To experiment.with their new views, and the social expectations.

Others might just want to fit in, and blend in. Be seen completely as a girl without raising doubts. The nail that sticks out is the one that gets noticed, after all, then nailed down.

There's also cases where the one changed might have always been in the submissive category, so they might be more likely to follow along with the new stereotypes.

But I do agree that it's what we've seen very often. Third Law of Genderbending, I believe. Some might see it as the draw to writing the TG elements.

It must also be frustrating when the character is suddenly flipping their personalities because of the change in gender. Like they're emancipated by the thoughts of suddenly being a girl, and they're 'unable to be strong'.

You don't often see this being inverted. The strong guy becoming, and staying a strong girl afterwards. It may depend on the character though, their values and how strong they value their masculinity.

But I'm guessing you do celebrate when you see a subversion of those tropes. Rare, but it can happen.

My story: Evershade: Reforming

7 years 8 months ago #100 by Nagrij

Nagrij

Posts: 1290

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

Polk Kitsune wrote:
Kettlekorn wrote: My pet peeve is when somebody becomes a girl and then seems to believe they have no choice but to comply with dumb stereotypes. Like the notion that the only options as a girl are skirts or nonfunctional pants.

... ... ...

It's like turning into a girl destroys their ability to man up and force the world to comply with their will. They become whiny helpless losers, not real women.
That part, I can agree on, in some parts. It's true that just because someone gets turned into a girl, that they should abandon what they've known, what they're made of, but that may be context sensitive.

Some might want to be seem more sensitive and feminine. To experiment.with their new views, and the social expectations.

Others might just want to fit in, and blend in. Be seen completely as a girl without raising doubts. The nail that sticks out is the one that gets noticed, after all, then nailed down.

There's also cases where the one changed might have always been in the submissive category, so they might be more likely to follow along with the new stereotypes.

But I do agree that it's what we've seen very often. Third Law of Genderbending, I believe. Some might see it as the draw to writing the TG elements.

It must also be frustrating when the character is suddenly flipping their personalities because of the change in gender. Like they're emancipated by the thoughts of suddenly being a girl, and they're 'unable to be strong'.

You don't often see this being inverted. The strong guy becoming, and staying a strong girl afterwards. It may depend on the character though, their values and how strong they value their masculinity.

But I'm guessing you do celebrate when you see a subversion of those tropes. Rare, but it can happen.

Pop quiz time: I have a subversion of this one... along with some of the other things baked into it. Care to guess which one it is? (Well, technically two I guess, but I'll take either answer.)

www.patreon.com/Nagrij

If you like my writing, please consider helping me out, and see the rest of the tales I spin on Patreon.

7 years 8 months ago - 7 years 8 months ago #101 by Esar

Esar

Posts: 328

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

Nagrij wrote: Care to guess which one it is? (Well, technically two I guess, but I'll take either answer.)

Lucas was rather strong headed, became maybe a little "meek" because of all the trauma inflicted by her transformation (some clear handicaps, traumatizing experience in and of itself, public exposure, plunged into an unknown world while still being a stranger to it) but if she overcomes her difficulties (easier said than done. The mental aspects would probably require moral support and some therapy, and I could see her working with devisors if she has overcome this particular problem because while it's not a necessity for a strong headed character to have an awesome powerset, I think it would help her self confidence especially when she has to be compared to the rest of whateley. Also if she could master her power which is currently not really known but is probably either a probability warper power or a big accuracy boost, it could also help in that regard. I hope it's the luck warper to be honest) then she will grow up to be a badass bunny girl in her own right.

Last Edit: 7 years 8 months ago by Esar.

7 years 8 months ago #102 by Astrodragon

Astrodragon

Posts: 1998

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

I'm having difficulty seeing Morana as a'weak' girly-girl here...

I love watching their innocent little faces smiling happily as they trip gaily down the garden path, before finding the pit with the rusty spikes.

7 years 8 months ago #103 by Valentine

Valentine

Posts: 3121

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: 17 Aug 1966

A couple more:

A TG or TV always has small privates, not Nick Jrs. allowed.

And the Forced Fem stories were the guy glanced at another woman, usually innocently, and the SO goes apeshit (no offense Monkeywrench) and completely transforms the love of her life destroying him utterly.

I wrote this one mostly to see what sort of reaction I would get from readers.
Mooooom! Joey is at it again.

Don't Drick and Drive.

7 years 8 months ago #104 by null0trooper

null0trooper

Posts: 3032

Gender: Male

Birthdate: 19 Oct 1964

Valentine wrote: A couple more:

A TG or TV always has small privates, not Nick Jrs. allowed.

Before, or after? Some stories I've read have fallen in the "There better be magitech involved for that to happen" territory.

Valentine wrote: And the Forced Fem stories were the guy glanced at another woman, usually innocently, and the SO goes apeshit (no offense Monkeywrench) and completely transforms the love of her life destroying him utterly.

Sometimes there are hints that the relationship is on the rocks already, to show he "deserves" what's coming. Other times, it can be a case of "Congratulations, you've hooked up with the bunny-boiler, and here's your grand prize!"

Forum-posted ideas are freely adoptable.

WhatIF Stories: Buy the Book

Discussion Thread

7 years 8 months ago #105 by Nagrij

Nagrij

Posts: 1290

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

Esar wrote:
Nagrij wrote: Care to guess which one it is? (Well, technically two I guess, but I'll take either answer.)

Lucas was rather strong headed, became maybe a little "meek" because of all the trauma inflicted by her transformation (some clear handicaps, traumatizing experience in and of itself, public exposure, plunged into an unknown world while still being a stranger to it) but if she overcomes her difficulties (easier said than done. The mental aspects would probably require moral support and some therapy, and I could see her working with devisors if she has overcome this particular problem because while it's not a necessity for a strong headed character to have an awesome powerset, I think it would help her self confidence especially when she has to be compared to the rest of whateley. Also if she could master her power which is currently not really known but is probably either a probability warper power or a big accuracy boost, it could also help in that regard. I hope it's the luck warper to be honest) then she will grow up to be a badass bunny girl in her own right.

That's all true, but given current evidence (knowledge that the readership has) I can't in good faith say Luke/Tia is one of the two subversions of the trope examples I'm looking for.

And Valentine, yeah, that one. The one where the guy gets his life destroyed for looking at another girl? I hate that one: guys are going to look, even if they are happy with their current S/O. Now that one, you've got me on, because I totally did it. On the other hand, I did portray (and I think successfully) said GF as being insane, and I didn't wander into the "now everything is fixed" trope after so you can be the judge there.

www.patreon.com/Nagrij

If you like my writing, please consider helping me out, and see the rest of the tales I spin on Patreon.

7 years 8 months ago #106 by mittfh

mittfh

Posts: 380

Gender: Male

Birthdate: 18 May 1977

Unlike most FF cases, in Lucas/Lucretia's case (a) the transformation was full body and occurred pretty darn quick, (b) he was removed from the presence of the antagonist pretty darn quick (to hospital) and didn't return, and (c) there was no blackmail involved - just revenge without a choice. The antagonist (Jamie) was also prosecuted - although evidently the judicial system wasn't prepared for an insane deivsor (not to mention Whateley security, with the convenient disabling of the CCTV - hopefully there'll be a follow-up and stricter controls placed on her)...

As the right side of the brain controls the left side of the body, then only left-handers are in their right mind!

7 years 8 months ago #107 by Rose Bunny

Rose Bunny

Posts: 1956

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

I think that my pet peeve is that you either see characters that love it, come to accept it, or grudgingly just deal with it. You never see the ones that are severely traumatized by it. Granted that yes, Kayda was traumatized, but that was more the result of the rape, the beatings, and the expectations. You never see the boy or girl that undergo gender reversal and become severely depressed, suicidal, or need to be institutionalized because of it.

That would be an interesting twist, on perhaps why Downpour is depressed and suicidal.

High-Priestess of the Order of Spirit-Chan

7 years 8 months ago #108 by Astrodragon

Astrodragon

Posts: 1998

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

Rose Bunny wrote: I think that my pet peeve is that you either see characters that love it, come to accept it, or grudgingly just deal with it. You never see the ones that are severely traumatized by it. Granted that yes, Kayda was traumatized, but that was more the result of the rape, the beatings, and the expectations. You never see the boy or girl that undergo gender reversal and become severely depressed, suicidal, or need to be institutionalized because of it.

That would be an interesting twist, on perhaps why Downpour is depressed and suicidal.

The trouble is its difficult to write an engaging story about such a damaged character.
So while you might see one as a peripheral character, you aren't likely to see one as a central one.
And the worse cases are in a mental ward anyway.

I love watching their innocent little faces smiling happily as they trip gaily down the garden path, before finding the pit with the rusty spikes.

7 years 8 months ago #109 by Arcanist Lupus

Arcanist Lupus

Posts: 1820

Gender: Male

Birthdate: Unknown

Besides, I like happy endings, and it's hard to get those when your main characters are permanently traumatized.

"Shared pain is lessened; shared joy, increased — thus do we refute entropy." - Spider Robinson

7 years 8 months ago #110 by null0trooper

null0trooper

Posts: 3032

Gender: Male

Birthdate: 19 Oct 1964

Arcanist Lupus wrote: Besides, I like happy endings, and it's hard to get those when your main characters are permanently traumatized.

There can be a whole lot of head room between "permanently fucked up" and "never functional again". I'd say that the writer may need to make clear early on that the lead characters don't have a happily-ever-after ranch house in the suburbs with a white-washed picket fence, a dog and cat, 2.3 bright, but socially well-adjusted children excelling at sports, academics, AND community service, etc., in their future -- and that THAT'S OKAY.

Hopefully, the story doesn't have to be a trauma conga line before the audience can recognize that the story's successes are going to be more modest from a third-person perspective, but just as valid as tossing a ring in a volcano somewhere.

Forum-posted ideas are freely adoptable.

WhatIF Stories: Buy the Book

Discussion Thread

7 years 8 months ago #111 by Astrodragon

Astrodragon

Posts: 1998

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: Unknown

Hang on, does that mean we aren't allowed to throw Kayda into a volcano?

You're no fun.... :evil:

I love watching their innocent little faces smiling happily as they trip gaily down the garden path, before finding the pit with the rusty spikes.

7 years 8 months ago #112 by Valentine

Valentine

Posts: 3121

Gender: Unknown

Birthdate: 17 Aug 1966

Astrodragon wrote: Hang on, does that mean we aren't allowed to throw Kayda into a volcano?

You're no fun....

She doesn't qualify, through no fault of her own (at least initially).

Don't Drick and Drive.

7 years 8 months ago #113 by null0trooper

null0trooper

Posts: 3032

Gender: Male

Birthdate: 19 Oct 1964

Astrodragon wrote: Hang on, does that mean we aren't allowed to throw Kayda into a volcano?

You're no fun....

The last time one of Mads' friends threw a party on a volcano, things got weird.
The time before that, things got weird, and complicated.

In retrospect, I cannot explain why he didn't get the hint from the first time.

Forum-posted ideas are freely adoptable.

WhatIF Stories: Buy the Book

Discussion Thread

Start
Prev
1
Next
End

Moderators: WhateleyAdmin, Kristin Darken, E. E. Nalley, elrodw, Nagrij, MageOhki, Astrodragon, NeoMagus, Warren, Morpheus, Wasamon, sleethr, OtherEric, Bek D Corbin, MaLAguA, Souffle Girl, Phoenix Spiritus, Starwolf, DanZilla, Katie_Lyn, Maggie Finson, DrBender, JG, Bladedancer, Renae_Whateley

Notice

Question My pet hate when it comes to TG fiction

Attachments:

Newest Original Timeline Stories

Newest 2nd Gen Stories

Newest Non-Canon Stories

Newest Independent Fiction