×

Notice

The forum is in read only mode.
× Feel free to discuss any typical forums accepted topic here, Whateley or otherwise. Let's avoid the usual suspects: politics, religion, and so forth that tend to result in flame wars and angered forums readers. Other topics will be considered fair game unless they prove to be too volatile, at which point we'll use Devisor created anti-flame chemicals on the subject.

Question becoming a canon author

7 years 3 months ago #1 by Anne
  • Anne
  • Anne's Avatar Topic Author


  • Posts: 1411

  • Gender: Unknown
  • Birthdate: Unknown
  • I find that the more time I invest into Nowhereville the more I would like this to become a canon story. Therefore I would like feedback on it that will help me in that direction. I've posted ~12,000 words of my rough draft here and have almost another 2,000 words written now. If this is a bad idea let me know now and I'll probably drop it like a rock.
    7 years 3 months ago #2 by Sir Lee
    • Sir Lee
    • Sir Lee's Avatar


  • Posts: 3113

  • Gender: Male
  • Birthdate: 08 Nov 1966
  • Not a member of the canon group, I'm speaking from memory of things canon authors have said over the years, so take what I'm saying with a liberal helping of salt, but...

    It's not that simple. Quality of writing is far from being the only requirement -- there's also, for starters, the matter of whether it's at all possible to fit that story into the planned overall arc for the universe (and, if the answer is "yes", how much tweaking would be necessary and whether the author would be willing to do the necessary work).
    There's also the matter of being able to work with the other members of the author group, which is no small thing.

    In a nutshell, the Cabal does not take applications for the most part -- instead, they might invite someone they think promising.

    Don't call me "Shirley." You will surely make me surly.
    7 years 3 months ago #3 by Rose Bunny
    • Rose Bunny
    • Rose Bunny's Avatar


  • Posts: 1956

  • Gender: Unknown
  • Birthdate: Unknown
  • I also think that they are looking for people with commitment to stay around beyond the one story. I know that they have been burned several times by "One and done" authors.

    High-Priestess of the Order of Spirit-Chan


    7 years 3 months ago #4 by Anne
    • Anne
    • Anne's Avatar Topic Author


  • Posts: 1411

  • Gender: Unknown
  • Birthdate: Unknown
  • Well, I don't plan to be a one and done author, but one can never guarantee that one will even greet the next sunrise. But with the proviso that I do intend to write more, though I am still looking for a commercial venture, let me say that in a way trying out for the canon cabal is probably a good step in that general direction.
    7 years 3 months ago #5 by Rose Bunny
    • Rose Bunny
    • Rose Bunny's Avatar


  • Posts: 1956

  • Gender: Unknown
  • Birthdate: Unknown
  • also, it's good you said a canon author, and not a cannon author... that second one would get you fired for sure.

    High-Priestess of the Order of Spirit-Chan


    7 years 3 months ago #6 by Anne
    • Anne
    • Anne's Avatar Topic Author


  • Posts: 1411

  • Gender: Unknown
  • Birthdate: Unknown
  • Bad puns will result in punishment!
    7 years 3 months ago #7 by elrodw
    • elrodw
    • elrodw's Avatar


  • Posts: 3263

  • Gender: Unknown
  • Birthdate: Unknown
  • The (informal) process is something like the following:

    Write IF. Let us see the quality of your work. Then you'll want to work with a canon 'sponsor' to do a "Gen 0" story, which is backstory filling in a universe event (an important one). Example might be the early founding of Whateley as a superhero school, or the startup of HPARC, or a tragic breakup of a hero group, or Mejor Fuerte going all Dark Phoenix on her team and taking a lot to put down (Mentioned in Ayla stories dealing with dark phoenix scenarios). In other words, something important and world-building but which doesn't directly affect the gen 1 characters.

    Now on that, it WILL be an iterative event. It WILL be frustrating for you, when you propose a draft story element and the canon authors say "wrong direction" or "I don't think B fits in well" or "I thought you'd do XYZ". When you think you've defined a characterization and motives, and some of the canon team says "been there too often - try something different" - which may or may not be accompanied by suggestions. This WILL be the hardest part - taking a lot of (frankly quite blunt) critique, not getting argumentative because plot element ABC was too dear to your heart, and accepting the constructive criticism as helpful suggestions. You may or may not get justification for changes. "But I wanted to do IJK." "Sorry, you can't." "Why?" "At this stage, we can't tell you." Yes, it will be frustrating.

    Kristin is working on a formalized process so everyone understands. Just know this - quality is ONLY the first hurdle. Are you a good writer? Yes? Good. Now here are more challenges.

    And IF you make it, don't count on automatically canonizing your characters and stories. Morph and I did it, but it was painful (all around). Sometimes the changes are small. Sometimes they're huge. Sometimes it simply can't be made to fit (e.g. you have a warper who can travel BACK in time. Time travel is a huge NO-NO.)

    So, does that help understand the hurdles?

    Never give up, Never surrender! Captain Peter Quincy Taggert
    7 years 3 months ago - 7 years 3 months ago #8 by JG
    • JG
    • JG's Avatar


  • Posts: 1454

  • Gender: Unknown
  • Birthdate: Unknown
  • Sometimes a barrier is as simple as "Can you take critique?"

    I got in more or less completely by accident. I wrote the original Eldritch stories to see if I could write for the audience. I had absolutely no intention of becoming a canon author. Dunno what, precisely made 'em lock on, but I'm glad they did. It's been fun.
    Last Edit: 7 years 3 months ago by JG.
    7 years 3 months ago #9 by Anne
    • Anne
    • Anne's Avatar Topic Author


  • Posts: 1411

  • Gender: Unknown
  • Birthdate: Unknown
  • Thank you both to JG and Elrod. I respect your writing quite a bit.
    Something from Gen 0? That made me think of the Mystic 6. Nothing so firm as even an opening scene yet, but has anyone done anything on Mr Lodgeman or the woman who previously bore a shard of Aunghadhail?
    7 years 3 months ago - 7 years 3 months ago #10 by Malady
    • Malady
    • Malady's Avatar


  • Posts: 3893

  • Gender: Unknown
  • Birthdate: Unknown
  • Anne wrote: Thank you both to JG and Elrod. I respect your writing quite a bit.
    Something from Gen 0? That made me think of the Mystic 6. Nothing so firm as even an opening scene yet, but has anyone done anything on Mr Lodgeman or the woman who previously bore a shard of Aunghadhail?


    What we know is in the Wiki. I'm sorta sure we've got basically everything available on Cirque, but not 100%.

    We dunno if Miss Henderson, the Librarian, is familially connected to Cirque, but it seems likely, given their shared last names. It's not on the wiki 'cause we don't usually do speculation like that without more backup? Then again, we've done speculation on Wiggle / Dismiss... Mmm...

    Cirque

    Marion Henderson

    Totem

    Darren Englund

    :blink: Just connected... If Marion's a librarian 'cause it's a The Music Man ref ... .

    WMGs and Rambles [ Click to expand ]
    Last Edit: 7 years 3 months ago by Malady.
    7 years 3 months ago #11 by Anne
    • Anne
    • Anne's Avatar Topic Author


  • Posts: 1411

  • Gender: Unknown
  • Birthdate: Unknown
  • I have a little thing bumbling along in my mind right now, writing it depends on whether or not Cirque died before the re-formation of Whateley. Or maybe just maybe if the timing is right, her death served to spur the Mystic 6 to form Whately?
    It's pretty obvious that at some point someone with seriously bad blood got involved with the MCO. Certainly their original charter didn't have them intentionally liquidating poor but 'pretty' mutants, yet by the time we see gen 1 that is almost a given. Certainly it is what Noms expects.
    7 years 3 months ago #12 by Malady
    • Malady
    • Malady's Avatar


  • Posts: 3893

  • Gender: Unknown
  • Birthdate: Unknown
  • Ohh... On Gen0 MCO, read A Good Man ...

    Story Discussion Thread

    If you don't mind being spoiled on what the story is like, read the Kristin Post on how this story's MCO relates to MCO across the Generations.

    ... It seems like our posts are derailing the thread "How to become a Canon Author" base.
    7 years 3 months ago #13 by Anne
    • Anne
    • Anne's Avatar Topic Author


  • Posts: 1411

  • Gender: Unknown
  • Birthdate: Unknown
  • I don't think so, after all you want stories in your canon that advance the whole universe in a cohesive way. So a person who is going to write here needs to do some serious research. I read the first part of A Good Man but honestly, I was unable to read the second part. I doubt very much I could ever actually write a character (even an antagonist) that was quite as evil as the one in that story. It is one thing to be terrified of nature (Kelly was, after all an injured person in the semiwilderness with coyotes in the distance? You just know he may end up on their dinner menu! But them chasing him is not because they are evil, unless they are being influenced by an outside entity. They are just looking for dinner! That doesn't mean that Kelly would be any less dead, just that the coyotes were being what they are. Maybe people who torture other people are just being what they are, but I have a hard time reading about it!
    7 years 3 months ago #14 by Kristin Darken
    • Kristin Darken
    • Kristin Darken's Avatar


  • Posts: 3898

  • Gender: Unknown
  • Birthdate: Unknown
  • It's hard to derail any thread on becoming a canon author because there is no one single way to do it. I did put together the Gen 0 project as a 'better than nothing' and 'improvement over creative submissions' method, but I've never 'formally' kicked it off because it involves (like everything else) time dedicated into setting it up, overseeing it, and so on. A lot of people misunderstand Gen 0 (and as such, its probably not the right name for the project) because they assume it means a 'separate timeline' like the Gen 2 project did. And that's not really the case. The goal was simply to set up a technique that lets us test some of the things about an author that we don't already get from their WhatIF stories.

    See... if you write, at all, we can make a pretty good analysis of your style, structure, mechanics, and so forth. That's a part of every story you write and the more you do, the more we'll see of your technique. Similarly, we can get a pretty good grasp on your creative insight and facility with the genre... because, again, every story you write here will show us that. What you writing WhatIF doesn't show us are several other things that are super critical for being a member of a shared universe team:

    1. The ability to read for context and detail - just because we work together and plan things out on a big picture level doesn't mean every detail is written down. In many cases, we have shared maybe... 3-4 pages of details about a character that beyond what actually shows up in the stories and that's all the other authors have available to include other authors' events/characters in their stories. We've had a number of people apply over the years who wrote stories in which major characters were significantly different from the way they were portrayed in canon stories... that's a warning sign, because we don't have time and we don't have all the details written down somewhere that they can learn this stuff 'after' becoming canon. Part of being canon is simply staying on top of concept with the only 'real' reference available... the canon collection (so it is also a warning sign when someone has read only a fraction of the collection and feels ready to join canon).

    2. The ability to work with the other authors. To be willing to WORK at it... communicating to learn specific details that you need, getting feedback on things in other authors' plans or plotlines. And at the same time, being willing to expose your incomplete work to them and take (and apply) feedback, comments, suggestions... and even add scenes written by other authors into your work.

    3. The ability to persist. We aren't looking for people who will write an origin story or two. We're looking for authors who what to tell a multi-year story about one or more characters, who want to integrate that story into others.


    And so the G0 project. A story referenced by existing canon material, summarized and given a main structure and some character basics by canon team, mentored by a canon author, with your progress brought up to the team at variable intervals so we can comment, give you feedback, and see where you take it.

    It's not ideal, but its something. :)

    Personally... I recommend that in pursuing a goal to become a canon author that you do so under the assumption that none of your WhatIF characters will transition.. that if you DO become canon, we will ask you to take a little time to get up to speed with the deeper plotlines, see what others are working on, and THEN and ONLY THEN, think about what sort of story you would like to tell and how you might work that into the current canon pipeline, including a presentation of what sort of character you'd like to use to tell the story. The reason for this is that any character you plan out before becoming a canon author can and will have aspects about it that are both integral to how you want to tell their story but not viable for a canon character. As a result, when we inevitably tell you it won't work that way... you'll have to do things to force the character to work.

    If you have a character or story that you want to tell, just tell it. Don't worry about it not being canon. Only worry about canon if you understand that its a long haul and that nothing you do is completely yours... and that just because you plan something out, doesn't mean it'll happen. Nor is getting made canon a promise that all (or any) of your WhatIF characters will cross that divide with you.

    Fate guard you and grant you a Light to brighten your Way.
    7 years 3 months ago #15 by Anne
    • Anne
    • Anne's Avatar Topic Author


  • Posts: 1411

  • Gender: Unknown
  • Birthdate: Unknown
  • I want to really really thank you for taking the time to put all of that out there for me. I may never make it to being a canon author, or I may indeed have something to tell. At this point I do know that in many ways it is too early to tell. I hate to say that all of my writing so far has been 'discovery' writing. I quite literally didn't have much more of Nowhereville than the first paragraph or so thought up when I started writing, but the scene seemed to me (anyway) to compel me to write it down.
    Now I know writing is a truly solitary pursuit, it doesn't put you into very much contact with anyone at all, so you have to write first and foremost for yourself, but that can leave you second guessing unless you have a very large and impervious ego....
    7 years 3 months ago #16 by Kristin Darken
    • Kristin Darken
    • Kristin Darken's Avatar


  • Posts: 3898

  • Gender: Unknown
  • Birthdate: Unknown
  • I don't know that I agree with that... yes, writing itself can be lonely and you have to be a bit of a stalker to get close enough to a couple characters, watch them, and tell their story to other people. But being an author is 'never' for yourself. Even stories written purely for entertainment are about understanding and experiencing perspectives other than your own without having personally lived what happened. You should ALWAYS have an audience in mind when telling a story. Most of the time, that's at the heart of any drive you might have to write a story... recognizing a viewpoint/perspective that you wish you could share/show to a specific audience, and realizing that you have the words to do it.

    Sure, sometimes the audience that you want to learn something or enjoy something new is YOU. But most of the time, even YOU can be extended into "people like you" if not more.

    And you also don't really want a big ego or an impervious one. Good writers... like all good artists... are actually fractured, broken, vulnerable personalities. People looking for understanding in the midst of pain or overwhelming emotion (good or bad) and trying to relate what they learn to people who aren't in the same place. Vulnerable, but resilient. You need to be able to take to heart what people tell you about your work... if something doesn't work, you need to be willing to let go of it. But not quit. Let go, write more, come back the next day with something better. Or something different, maybe to also get discarded, and reworked.

    One of the great modern playwrights and actors, Sam Sheppard isn't writing anymore. Back in the 70's, he was writing for off-Broadway. He'd present something in a little coffee shop stage one evening, scrap it and go up to his room and write something new for the next night. Constantly working, honing his craft, and seeing how the words on his pages came alive in the voices of actors. And then about 20 years ago, he got his mental issues and alcoholism under control. He fell in love and has a stable income and kids and a ranch. He doesn't need to write anymore, he's said, he found his answers and worked out his troubles.

    Fate guard you and grant you a Light to brighten your Way.
    7 years 3 months ago #17 by Sir Lee
    • Sir Lee
    • Sir Lee's Avatar


  • Posts: 3113

  • Gender: Male
  • Birthdate: 08 Nov 1966
  • Kristin Darken wrote: One of the great modern playwrights and actors, Sam Sheppard isn't writing anymore. Back in the 70's, he was writing for off-Broadway. He'd present something in a little coffee shop stage one evening, scrap it and go up to his room and write something new for the next night. Constantly working, honing his craft, and seeing how the words on his pages came alive in the voices of actors. And then about 20 years ago, he got his mental issues and alcoholism under control. He fell in love and has a stable income and kids and a ranch. He doesn't need to write anymore, he's said, he found his answers and worked out his troubles.


    Uh, this Sam Shepard ? If so, he won't be writing anymore under any circumstances... he passed away last July. Also, the Wikipedia bio re: his personal life and alcoholism is a bit different from what you describe.

    Don't call me "Shirley." You will surely make me surly.
    7 years 3 months ago #18 by Kristin Darken
    • Kristin Darken
    • Kristin Darken's Avatar


  • Posts: 3898

  • Gender: Unknown
  • Birthdate: Unknown
  • Ya, that one. Evidently he fell back off the wagon there before he passed (which I do recall hearing about when it happened but didn't remember in responding to the thread). But just look at his output. multiple plays a year in the 60's and 70's... and in the 90's? every 3-4 yrs. I'll see if I can dig up the article about his attitude towards his writing. It's from the late 90's or the first couple years of the new century, I remember talking about it in grad school... which was 00-03.

    Fate guard you and grant you a Light to brighten your Way.
    7 years 3 months ago #19 by Katssun
    • Katssun
    • Katssun's Avatar


  • Posts: 1333

  • Gender: Unknown
  • Birthdate: Unknown
  • I've always sort of viewed writing as something similar to the (varied) approaches and definitions of method acting/Stanislavski's system. You take a moment of your own life, exaggerate it, build on it, and develop narrative, emotion and actions from it. What would you do in a given scenario with a given background and fabricated past history?

    Say you feel betrayed one day in real life? Write down how it felt! You can use the raw emotion you felt at the time to generate a huge variety of situations for your characters with their respective fabricated backgrounds. Maybe your character fought against it and carried on with a stiff upper lip. Maybe they struck back. Maybe they wallowed in self-pity. Maybe they nearly reached their breaking point before a friend or loved one consoled them and allowed them to move past it.

    I don't think you personally need to be vulnerable and broken as a writer forever. But you can take those moments when you do to craft fully realized individuals out of ether. Craft entire worlds from an errant thought.

    I believe the only requirement for an author is to have a boundless imagination, and a desire/drive/willingness/determination to learn everything. Even if you haven't experienced something, research can get you there. In the Information Age, someone out there has posted how they felt at a particular moment, or how they got through it, or what they felt sympathizing with someone else who did.
    Moderators: WhateleyAdminKristin DarkenE. E. NalleyelrodwNagrijMageOhkiAstrodragonNeoMagusWarrenMorpheusWasamonsleethrOtherEricBek D CorbinMaLAguASouffle GirlPhoenix SpiritusStarwolfDanZillaKatie_LynMaggie FinsonDrBenderJGBladedancerRenae_Whateley
    Powered by Kunena Forum