Question Magical Traditions

... Well, basically I'm wondering how much, if any, of Eldritch's Freeform Magic Style, is connected to general Sidhe Style magic, 'cause they both seem free from the restraints of (most?) human casters, as said in Siblings and Savages Chapter 3, in the "trigger locks" conversation.

Although, Sidhe magic might / likely has restraints that we haven't seen, or I've forgot. ... Like their 5 Element belief where Wood's in the center??

... Eldritch can copy any magic she's seen right? ... Is there anything her style won't let her do?? *shrugs*

God magic systems one of my favorite things to either develop or pull apart on a lazy day. Fae's magic system reminds me of the stereotypical wizard / sorcerer type. She uses spells and at times incantations to create an effect. Eldritch on the other hand is what she is stated to be, an Artificier, in someone who uses magic to create magical items.

Now, I have a character I'm working on who is going to be based on age old nordic Seidr. She's an anti-caster (think Mesmers in GW1) and her code name is Witchbane. So I'm still thinking it over, but its going to be a mix of runic divination and inscriptions.

Me, I always thought Caitlins magic system was
(1) Hit it with a hammer
(2) If that doesn't work, use a bigger hammer.

ShadowedSin wrote: Now, I have a character I'm working on who is going to be based on age old nordic Seidr. She's an anti-caster (think Mesmers in GW1) and her code name is Witchbane. So I'm still thinking it over, but its going to be a mix of runic divination and inscriptions.

So, she practices galdr.

Yup! She's technically Freyja so she consider's herself the "Mistress of Craft". But yeah she works a lot with Galdr inscriptions and also a few other things

Caitlin/Eldritch makes me think of some of the old descriptions of smiths from the days of yore personally. A time when metalworking itself was seen as an almost mystical act. Somehow, a person could make a material liquid or solid, change the properties of the material and decide the purpose of any object created. All in a way beyond the comprehension and understanding of the lay people of that era. That situation resulted in the smith being viewed as almost a fringe member of society. Sometimes respected and sometimes derided. Their abilities and products made them valuable members of society, but they were engaged in dirty work of a manual (and sometimes viewed as menial) labor nature.

Adding in actual magic to such an individual is the logical step (one that some histories and myths have already done). The interesting constant in those stories is the nature of the mystical abilities of the smith. They are not focused outwardly, but rather inwardly (or into the object being fashioned at any rate). The "powers" of legendary smiths were in the areas of strength, endurance, dexterity and improving their products. To me, it would be logical for the Articifer to carry these concepts to a higher level than that obtained by mere mortals. So, I don't foresee Eldritch consuming the English with fireballs from her eyes and bolts of lightning from her arse. (yes, I did rip that line off) No, I see Caitlin/Eldritch as Gofannon with a sex change (after all, the Articifer has already made a spear [needle]).

JG wrote:

Kristin Darken wrote: This is completely my own perspective, I hadn't talked with JG about this... but I've always expected that any magick Caitlyn does with either be crafting oriented or similar to what a Shadowrun Physical Adept might do. Basically using magick to re-enchant for alternate purposes the golem/construct that makes up her 'body'... so, making herself stronger, faster, repairing wounds/regenerative, run on air, etc.

You know for someone I've never laid this out for, you're remarkably perceptive.

I mean... it seems sort of obvious...

As to writing like Morpheus... I'm pretty sure he/she cheats. Uses time dilation to acomplish months of writing in weeks or something like that.

Or they do what I do, only way more efficiently. Have a job that leaves you lots of time to write AND get paid.

Can Caitlin do anything that Shamans can do, or is she limited to more "sidhe" style magics...

Do magical "traditions" vary even between the Sidhe and the courts quite a bit? Are there many "traditions" tracing back to the same source, and is a person restricted to a single tradition or "style" or magic?

Just how much difference is there for Sidhe vs regular human/mutant casters?

As a mystic smith, I believe that Catlin will be able to make any tool she decides it is necessary for her to make. Look at what she made for the TLW just to pay her debt to Clover...! Oh and to irritate Grimes, though that was a somewhat secondary consideration

Caveat: Not a canon author/contributor. Your own mileage may vary.

Iwasforger03 wrote: Do magical "traditions" vary even between the Sidhe and the courts quite a bit? Are there many "traditions" tracing back to the same source, and is a person restricted to a single tradition or "style" or magic?

Keep in mind that there would have been Sidhe and fae of various sorts associated with each of the Five Courts, each for their own reasons. That each court was ruled by a different group of races (culturally or inherently, who knows?) favoring a differing magical element ensures that differing approaches were favored.

I'm fairly certain that the canon world-builders didn't pull a "color-coded for your convenience" number on magic vis-a-vis the Atlantean courts. Even dragons had to have gotten bored with that nonsense eventually.

Is a person restricted to a single tradition? That depends on the person and, possibly, how hierarchical and close-minded the tradition is. Kayda? Yes. Having aced Intro to Magical Arts in Spring 2007 and learned a couple of cantrips from the Three Little Witches, outside of North American shamanism there's nothing worth wasting her time learning. Diamondback? No. As long as something works well enough for a price she's willing to pay and is based on reasons and rules she finds acceptable, it's fair game. Circe or Grimesy? Definitely not. If nothing else, one can learn the warning signs and maybe some counters to the Bad Stuff.

In OC-land, Valravn is learning Western spellcasting because although it does NOT come naturally to him, that doesn't mean he cannot be harmed by it. Different traditions are just different paths that humans like to take (...not to mention fetishizing to the point of insanity. Speaking of insanity... ) On the other hand, Metro is a hermetic (chaos) magician by his formal training, while it was a Bear Shaman that taught him about spirits, and he has some specialized knowledge of Voudou and Norse traditions (Because, unlike Sandra, he doesn't always think things past "What's the cost?" through to "What does this mean in the long run?")

Iwasforger03 wrote: Just how much difference is there for Sidhe vs regular human/mutant casters?

All the difference in the world, which is to say, none.

Humans, including mutant humans, are living beings that generate essence simply by breathing. It's not much per individual, but it's not zero, and when gripped by passion or despair not only can they accomplish amazing and terrible things but they generate significant amounts of essence as a by-product.

The difference for WIZ mutant humans is that they naturally draw ambient essence into themselves. That sounds kind of pointless if they don't have the Will to hold that power, yeah? Just like any other hairless ape. I'd posit that just as the essence generated by a human is colored by that human's emotions and beliefs/traditions, the essence drawn in and released from the wells of baseline and mutant sorcerors (and priests, and shamen, and many others, trained or not) is also filtered and converted through the practitioners' emotional state and world-view. The result could be manifest in the world as Stonehenge, the Temple Mount, or Dachau. There are probably a few places out there so metaphysically blighted that even Mythos creatures and magicians avoid them like the plague they are.

Anyway, it's been flat-out stated that the Sidhe are themselves Magic, and that many fae entities are, at their roots, knots of Essence stabilized by beliefs or organizing rules. We've seen that Fey can even strip out the raw essence from natural energy sources. But, in "Call The Thunder":

Nichole Reilly’s horrified voice rang out for them to hear.  “But I can’t do a fight in there!  The Ley Lines are so tangled that I’ll hardly be able to do anything!”

Those fae that are stabilized magic tend to reflect the existing flavour/color/charm? of the magic around them. Change the nature of the place, change their nature. The Bastard corrupted the magical foundation of one spell, and as a result it created leannan sidhe instead of brownies to inspire and maintain the champions among the Immortal Sidhe's mortal conscripts.

Perhaps - as their natural inclination is to draw the power for their spells from available ley lines - if there are no sources of raw essence or "fire"-aspected essence on-hand, it becomes difficult if not impossible to cast "fire" spells. Furthermore, the Sidhe might likewise begin to reflect the aspects of any aspected essence or specialized spells they routinely use, just as Aunghadhail's echo began to overshadow Nikki.

So on one end of a spectrum, you might have Mugwump, a fully human (mutant or not) magician who'd fry to a crisp if he connected with a ley line of any power, like a crawling bug shorting a 200-amp circuit. On the other, you might have Galadriel, a Power in her own right and easily a conduit for more Power:

“And now at last it comes. You will give me the Ring freely! In place of the Dark Lord you will set up a Queen. And I shall not be dark, but beautiful and terrible as the Morning and the Night! Fair as the Sea and the Sun and the Snow upon the Mountain! Dreadful as the Storm and the Lightning! Stronger than the foundations of the earth. All shall love me and despair!”

She can use any Power she chooses to access, but in using it it can change her to the point that she might as well have died.

Two sides, one coin.

That's my interpretation of the available lore, today, until I change my mind

I factor that in, as needed, for my OC Metro - and that's why he tested out as a baseline for the MCO. As a mortal from Svartalfheim (or its equivalent) he draws essence as needed from around him to work magic. If he's not actively using magic, his "well" just overflows back out like any other human who's learned enough to do some death and combat magics.

That was actually more of a "Are there things Shaman's consider unique to them which Caitlin can also do, because Artificer" question.

Also can her style be taught?

Iwasforger03 wrote: I mean... it seems sort of obvious...

As to writing like Morpheus... I'm pretty sure he/she cheats. Uses time dilation to acomplish months of writing in weeks or something like that.

From the Whateley Wiki page, so you know it's official.

Morpheus Wiki Page wrote: His initial coding was finished sometime prior to 1998, and he has been churning out fiction ever sense. No one knows who wrote the initial program, but it has been evolving since it came online, producing over 300 stories.

I wonder how long before Caitlin starts using her magic to control multiple MGs at one time.

Valentine wrote:

Iwasforger03 wrote: I mean... it seems sort of obvious...

As to writing like Morpheus... I'm pretty sure he/she cheats. Uses time dilation to acomplish months of writing in weeks or something like that.

From the Whateley Wiki page, so you know it's official.

Morpheus Wiki Page wrote: His initial coding was finished sometime prior to 1998, and he has been churning out fiction ever sense. No one knows who wrote the initial program, but it has been evolving since it came online, producing over 300 stories.

I wonder how long before Caitlin starts using her magic to control multiple MGs at one time.

That is one realistic program. It responds like a normal person and everything. Bloody hell. And that writing! Whoever coded this thing is one hell of a Devisor. A scary good one. Really scary.

JG wrote: On the surface, sure. But there are things Kayda can do that Caitlin cannot. Like cleanse the GOO taint from a living being. Even on inanimate objects, the purification comes by annihilation for Caitlin.

Cait's magic is that of the physical world.

As far as teaching? [THIS SENTENCE HAS BEEN REDACTED FOR SPOILERS]

Makes me wonder where Morgana falls on this scale then. She's half-demon, but tied to the elemental plane of fire, and fire is often associated with spiritual purification.

And for that matter, so is a certain maiden associated with the sun.

Hmm...

Well, Morgana has (at least two) magic issues.

When she's using her well and doing 'normal' magic, its basically human magic as taught at Whateley, which is roughly Western traditional magic (except where it isn't, of course)

If she's using Fire Plane energy more directly, using her inheritance from Thulia - ah, thats when things get interesting. And different. I'd tell you how, but then we'd have to sacrifice you to a demon...

edit: nvm Astro got there before me and I didn't notice.

Freebie: If Hikaru has any association with the Three treasures...
it's the Mirror.

Take that for what you will.


I'll also say this: Hikaru's magic capability is... [reacted by order of TrollHime... ]

JG wrote: As far as teaching? [THIS SENTENCE HAS BEEN REDACTED FOR SPOILERS]

The mage-smiths had to learn their craft somewhere. If it can be learned, or even known, it can be taught.

Dragonsfyre is one of the few known students who might survive cranking a forge up past 11 in her birthday suit, but that doesn't make her the first, the last, or even interested in that craft.

null0trooper wrote: Dragonsfyre is one of the few known students who might survive cranking a forge up past 11 in her birthday suit, but that doesn't make her the first, the last, or even interested in that craft.

Have Adam and Dawn lure her in there. Morgana is Welsh, after all.

Oh wait...Dawn is a goat-girl.

Bad Katssun, Bad... I think?

Very bad. I should apologize to Astrodragon in advance, but I simply couldn't resist.

ACtually... I'm missing the joke here somewhere. I've half got it... but I'm still missing something.

Maybe a Torchwood reference or something like that?

... oh wow, Kat, that's even worse than I thought. Just... wow. I think I'd almost enjoy what Morgana might do to you for that joke (though I also have no particular issue with Morgana in a threesome with Dawn and Adam, or a triangular stable relationship)

Another thought: Morgana is linked to the Plane of Fire.

How does this connection, and any other similar connections that other characters have, interact with the wards placed around the Whateley campus?

JG wrote: As far as teaching? [THIS SENTENCE HAS BEEN REDACTED FOR SPOILERS]

I have wondered for some time whether Eldritch's process could be reverse-engineered to determine some of the underlying principles of artifice...

Astrodragon wrote: If she's using Fire Plane energy more directly, using her inheritance from Thulia - ah, thats when things get interesting. And different. I'd tell you how, but then we'd have to sacrifice you to a demon...

If the demon's Thulia, I volunteer myself as sacrifice!